Scariest Smash Captain?

[Kallas]

I fully understand BODMAS but that isn't the issue, the issue is the wording of the rule and where the rule adds the damage, does it change the damage done by the weapon (e.g. Marksmen's Honour +1D) or the result of the damage "roll" (e.g. Imperial Fists rule +1D vs vehicles)

 

Drakesmiter rules clearly say it "adds 3 to the damage characteristic" not the damage of the weapon, so it becomes a 6D weapon not a 3D plus 3 damage additional damage on a roll of 6.

 

So the strategy with Drakesmiter is 6D (3 doubled) and 12D (6 doubled) on a 6.

 

Which would be true if they hadn't already covered something similar to this. There are senarios where you add a strength for whatever reason (charging, heroic intervention) and when using a weapon the x2 to the strength. They clarified that you add the strength as it's a modifier to the base stats THEN you times the strength. The wording on the relic suggests that this is the same as you add 3 to the weapons dmg profie rather than just adding 3 dmg. The FAQ will for sure clear this up and I hope they make a ruling on this to cover everything rather than picking and chosing where stuff applies.

 

 

Drakesmiter:

"When resolving an attack made with this weapon, subtract 1 from the hit roll, and on an unmodified wound roll of 6 add 3 to the Damage characteristic for that attack."

 

Strength of the Primarch:

"Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select one SALAMANDERS unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of models in that unit, and when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in that unit, on an unmodified wound roll of 6 double the Damage characteristic of that weapon for that attack."

 

So both of the effects trigger at the same point ("on an unmodified wound roll of 6" - identical for both).

 

Strength of the Primarch doubles the damage characteristic of the weapon; Drakesmiter adds 3 to the damage characteristic of the weapon. By the core rules, you would apply Strength of the Primarch first, as it multiplies, and then add 3 for Drakesmiter.

 

That's how it is guys. If one of them affected the amount of damage dealt, then there'd be an issue, but they both affect the same thing (damage characteristic) at the same time (unmodified wound roll of 6).

 

Edit:

Looking at Drakesmiter again, it affects the damage characteristic "for that attack." I'm not sure if I've seen that language employed before, and I'm actually not sure how it would function. It's almost the exact same language, but not quite.

 

So it may be that it's 12 Damage, but I'd say that the language is much more in the direction of 9 Damage.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Kallas

[Shas Oh Dear]

Page 175 of rulebook specifically states that if there are multiple modifiers you do multiplication first, so the weapons damage becomes 2x3+3d or essentially 9d. Powerfists and the like do not modify the core stat like these instances (ie your characters str doesn't become 8 the weapon just hits at double your core str) so are not relevant.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The problem is the faq says you do non-weapon addition before weapon multiplication, albeit for the strength characteristic in the question posed.

[casb1965]

The reasoning I have been using is that the effect from Drakesmiter is not a stratagem, chapter trait, combat cdoctrine etc, it is a modifier achieved from the weapon itself.

 

You use Drakesmiter and hit with a 6 it gives you an extra 3 to it's damage characteristic, all the other things affect the damage inflicted by the weapon, Drakesmiter IS the weapon. So my logic is weapon damage is 3, Drakesmiter adds 3 on a 6, weapon damage is now 6, now any other modifiers happen.

 

You can't double a weapon's damage using Strength of the Primarch without first knowing what that damage is.

Edited November 11, 2019 by casb1965

[Kallas]

The problem is the faq says you do non-weapon addition before weapon multiplication, albeit for the strength characteristic in the question posed.

 

That is referencing adding something modifying the model's characteristic, and then a separate buff from a weapon: ie, two things applying to an attack but not being applied to the same thing directly. Both are modifying the Strength characteristic of the attack, but through two different avenues (that much is similar in this case).

 

For Drakesmiter/SotP, however, we don't have a reference for when in the order of operations modifying an attack directly is applied. Is it before modifiers to a model's profile characteristic? Is it after the weapon?

 

That is unknown.

 

I would say, however, that the wording from these effects is much closer to "double then add" than it is to "add then double."

[MeltaRange]

Because drake smiter upgrades the damage characteristic, that means that happens first before the multiplier. That’s why it’s D12, just like a power fist is strength 10 if a space marine gets +1 to their strength characteristic

[Kallas]

Because drake smiter upgrades the damage characteristic, that means that happens first before the multiplier. That’s why it’s D12, just like a power fist is strength 10 if a space marine gets +1 to their strength characteristic

 

Um, does it?

 

We know how two things interact when one is the Strength characteristic and the other is from the weapon. The profile characteristic is applied first.

 

Is the "damage characteristic of the attack" functionally the same as a profile characteristic (eg, Strength)? If yes, then it's 9D. If no, then it's still unclear, because there's no guidance to say, "Do profile stuff, then do weapon stuff, then do other stuff."

 

They both affect the damage characteristic; but one affects the damage characteristic of the attack, and the other affects the damage characteristic of the weapon.

 

There's more evidence to suggest it's 9D than to suggest it's 12D.

 

And let's be real here folks: 9D is still incredibly potent.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Kallas

[MeltaRange]

Ok well I read the FAQ again and it does tell you to find the characteristic you multiply/divide and then add/subtract so I agree there on 9. Why add the “um”? Annoyed that I’d question you?

[Kallas]

Why add the “um”? Annoyed that I’d question you?

 

No, because it's not clear cut. I fully and freely admit that after examining the situation further my initial estimate was wrong. I thought that they both stated that they modified the damage characteristic of the weapon, but they don't.

 

One affects the "attack" but we have no point of reference for when that is applied with regards to profile adjustments and weapon adjustments. It's a third modifier and it's an unknown.

 

Edit:

But my leaning at the moment, unless proven definitively wrong (and I'm happy for someone to lay that out if they can back it up with rules), is that it's more likely to be 9D, which is still pretty amazing for a single attack.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Kallas

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

Why add the “um”? Annoyed that I’d question you?

No, because it's not clear cut. I fully and freely admit that after examining the situation further my initial estimate was wrong. I thought that they both stated that they modified the damage characteristic of the weapon, but they don't.

 

One affects the "attack" but we have no point of reference for when that is applied with regards to profile adjustments and weapon adjustments. It's a third modifier and it's an unknown.

 

Edit:

But my leaning at the moment, unless proven definitively wrong (and I'm happy for someone to lay that out if they can back it up with rules), is that it's more likely to be 9D, which is still pretty amazing for a single attack.

I can see your point here for sure, I don't agree with it but this is a problem with GW and rules. They've left this sort of thing too open, they need to make it clear cut. Easiest way is to make a blanket ruling( ie, you ALWAYS times then add), which is fine but it's probably not how they intended certain scenarios to work.

[Kallas]

I can see your point here for sure, I don't agree with it but this is a problem with GW and rules. They've left this sort of thing too open, they need to make it clear cut. Easiest way is to make a blanket ruling( ie, you ALWAYS times then add), which is fine but it's probably not how they intended certain scenarios to work.

 

Yeah, it would definitely be much better to have a blanket method. The Rulebook FAQ example is good, but now that they've introduced a 'new' timing for modification they need to be clearer on their wording. Never been GW's forte!

[casb1965]

I'm not sure there is a new timing for the modification in this case.

 

The rules for Drakesmiter are pretty clear it is D3 unless you roll a 6 then it becomes D6, it isn't until this point that you know what the damage characteristic is to apply any modifiers.

[Marshal van Trapp]

So while not strictly a "smash captain" if you do an IF jp captain with the Teeth of Terra and give him both Imperiums Sword and Seige Master, with the Sentinel of Terra strat, you get 8 S6 attacks that hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s and get a +1 to wound against vehicles and buildings (so a 4+ against many of the same targets as a smash captain) all with ap -2 and D2, while it has less damage output than a TH smasher it can do equally well clearing out infantry so he cant get bogged down quite as easily as a traditional smash captain

[jeremy1391]

Imperial fist smash captain with a master crafted thunder hammer, with siege master and imperium sword warlord traits.

 

6 attacks on the charge, wounding knights on 2’s, doing four damage a swing. Pretty tasty. If you fight again you will with average rolls ace a knight.

[TrawlingCleaner]

As per the salamander FAQ today, I was incorrect. Drakesmiter with the strat is 9 dmg

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Y'all are looking at this the wrong way. Arnie in The Terminator wasn't scary because he was lethal, he was scary because you couldn't kill him.

 

Iron Hands Terminator Captain with hammer, storm shield, All Flesh is Weakness, Automedicae Bionics, Reject the Flesh Embrace the Machine, and Transhuman Physiology. 6W with 2+ 3++ 4+++, wounded only on 4+, regain d3 wounds each turn.

 

He may not kill the target in one phase, but chances are he'll have more than one phase to try!

[Claws and Effect]

Y'all are looking at this the wrong way. Arnie in The Terminator wasn't scary because he was lethal, he was scary because you couldn't kill him.

 

Iron Hands Terminator Captain with hammer, storm shield, All Flesh is Weakness, Automedicae Bionics, Reject the Flesh Embrace the Machine, and Transhuman Physiology. 6W with 2+ 3++ 4+++, wounded only on 4+, regain d3 wounds each turn.

 

He may not kill the target in one phase, but chances are he'll have more than one phase to try!

The triumphant return of Chapter Master Smash :cuss: Edited November 20, 2019 by Claws and Effect

[casb1965]

On a similar vein to the IH terminator captain I'm looking at the following:

 

Salamanders Cataphracti terminator captain, Forge Master (+2T), Exemplar of the Promethean Cult (1CP for 1WT), Miraculous Constitution (6+++, regen 1 W per your movement phase), Salamander's mantle relic (-1 to wound)

 

He ends up with T6, 2+, 3++, 6+++, regen 1W, -1 to wound, AP -1 = AP 0 against him, re-roll 1 to hit, reroll 1 to wound, and has a chainfist for melee.

Edited November 20, 2019 by casb1965

[TrawlingCleaner]

On a similar vein to the IH terminator captain I'm looking at the following:

 

Salamanders Cataphracti terminator captain, Forge Master (+2T), Exemplar of the Promethean Cult (1CP for 1WT), Miraculous Constitution (6+++, regen 1 W per your movement phase), Salamander's mantle relic (-1 to wound)

 

He ends up with T6, 2+, 3++, 6+++, regen 1W, -1 to wound, AP -1 = AP 0 against him, re-roll 1 to hit, reroll 1 to wound, and has a chainfist for melee.

 

Pop the "can only be wounded on 4,5,6s" on him and he's only being wounded on 5s

[casb1965]

@TrawlingCleaner, are you talking about Promethean Plate? That gives you a "wound rolls of 1, 2 and 3 always miss" I think if you were needing a 3+ to wound a 4 would still wound as it is "4-1=3" rather than a roll of 3.

[TrawlingCleaner]

@TrawlingCleaner, are you talking about Promethean Plate? That gives you a "wound rolls of 1, 2 and 3 always miss" I think if you were needing a 3+ to wound a 4 would still wound as it is "4-1=3" rather than a roll of 3.

 

Apologies, I meant the strat in the marine codex that means that an infantry unit only can be wounded on 4,5,6. Transhuman physiology I think it's called

[casb1965]

@TC - yes that is Transhuman Physiology, it's 2CP so probably not used just on a solo model.

[jeremy1391]

An “unkillable” imperial fist smash captain

Indomitable warlord trait (1-3 to wound always fails), sentinel of Terra for extra trait stubborn heroism (half all incoming damage but cannot fall back), give him the adamant one mantle for 5++, equip him with jump pack and storm shield.

 

151 points for a model with 5 wounds, only wounded on 4+, halves all damage, with a 3+ invul, and a 5+ FNP.

 

That’s pretty sturdy.

[The Wolfguard]

Whilst not really a 'smash captain' as such, I ran a Primaris captain, imperial fists supplement, with power fist, adamantine mantle then indomitable and stubborn heroism. 5+++ along with only can be wounded on a 4+ and halves all incoming damage? This was pretty nice and only 92 points. I unfortunately didn't get chance to use him to his full potential as I was scared of pushing him up but he definitely could have been a nuisance and was when he got there.

 

Though admittedly, compared to the damage output of the smash captains here, he's probably nowhere near on par with them of course, but that's what you get for making him tougher instead of more offensive!

 

Quick Edit: You could combine this with a librarian with fortify or apothecary for more wounds back too! Potentially 2d3 wounds back per turn, he's not going anywhere that quickly that's for sure.

 

 

An “unkillable” imperial fist smash captain

Indomitable warlord trait (1-3 to wound always fails), sentinel of Terra for extra trait stubborn heroism (half all incoming damage but cannot fall back), give him the adamant one mantle for 5++, equip him with jump pack and storm shield.

 

151 points for a model with 5 wounds, only wounded on 4+, halves all damage, with a 3+ invul, and a 5+ FNP.

 

That’s pretty sturdy.

 

I mentioned this on the first page but I completely forgot about the idea of using a storm shield! I'm so dumb oops! Though yours is sliightlyyy more points! I still like the idea of adding the librarian with it for fortify, or the apothecary!

 

It's definitely tough, yours would be insanely hard to kill, even mine as the primaris variant tanked a lot!