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State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition


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#1
Bloody Legionnaire

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So, I've been working on my legions for entirely too long now and I've yet to actually play any HH/30k games yet. That's the downside of having too much of a plastic/resin crack addiction. 

 

This has given me a lot of time to read, watch, and think about this wonderful hobby we all enjoy. I'm sad to see it appears GW has completely gone back to their old ways and WH40k once again feels like the bloated and ridiculously unbalanced game it did at the end of 7th edition. Evidently Mr. Bligh was intent on porting over HH/30k to 8th edition but right about now I'm pretty glad that didn't happen.

 

Because I spend so much time over in the 40k forums I wanted to know where you Age of Darkness junkies stand on the state of the HH/WH30k? It seems most of the hyper-skyisfalling-syndrome is finally over and we can see that HH/30k isn't just going to up and disappear. I'm really considering abandoning all of my 40k projects and just focusing on my legion armies and WH30k. I know the big issue for a lot of hobbyist that jumped on the HH train towards the end of 7th when it was the hotness was no longer being able to play against 40k armies with legions because of differing systems. I live in a period large area and I know there are some 30k communities out there so I'm not as concerned about being able to find games. 

 

Are you guys mostly satisfied about where WH30k is at right now?


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#2
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So, I've been working on my legions for entirely too long now and I've yet to actually play any HH/30k games yet. That's the downside of having too much of a plastic/resin crack addiction. 

 

This has given me a lot of time to read, watch, and think about this wonderful hobby we all enjoy. I'm sad to see it appears GW has completely gone back to their old ways and WH40k once again feels like the bloated and ridiculously unbalanced game it did at the end of 7th edition. Evidently Mr. Bligh was intent on porting over HH/30k to 8th edition but right about now I'm pretty glad that didn't happen.

 

Because I spend so much time over in the 40k forums I wanted to know where you Age of Darkness junkies stand on the state of the HH/WH30k? It seems most of the hyper-skyisfalling-syndrome is finally over and we can see that HH/30k isn't just going to up and disappear. I'm really considering abandoning all of my 40k projects and just focusing on my legion armies and WH30k. I know the big issue for a lot of hobbyist that jumped on the HH train towards the end of 7th when it was the hotness was no longer being able to play against 40k armies with legions because of differing systems. I live in a period large area and I know there are some 30k communities out there so I'm not as concerned about being able to find games. 

 

Are you guys mostly satisfied about where WH30k is at right now?

I did the shift a few years ago now, mostly because I really dig the lore in the Black Books. They have a way of making Legions feel like related but wholly fleshed out cultures and civilizations. You get how they and the Imperium work and they feel much more cleverly engineered than what alot of the novels did. That is not to dis the novels, because they are both usually very good and set the ball rolling, but the Black books usually get to work with alot of hindsight to benefit from and update to fix inconsistencies (until some author decides to flip the table for lols).

 

It is also a matter of tone, I like the spirit of the Crusade for all the monstrousness of it and the fact that you can play a mix of grim dark and also genuine idealism and nobility. You can also play a madman. Thats a lovely thing about Legions, with 100k marines average you can spin your own little narrative out of wholecloth for 'your guys' without having to constantly claim that you arent in the present (literally every Space Wolf player that wants to play an original company). The lore is also generally much more cohesive and straight-faced, which I dig. 

 

The shift became stronger for me over the years as 40K did more and more things I disliked (both mechanically and narratively), with the rise of Primaris and the 8th ed system basically killing it for me. I am a fan of bling, age and complex reflections of individuals so its no wonder that those shifts turned me off (not that it was hard, given the storm of silliness that was late 40k 7th).

 

I love 30k even if I do not play as often as I would like, but I still shell out every now and then to expand my EC and have been thinking of expanding into a second Legion for a while (dig MKIII but I don't dig their iconic legions). I am generally content with what we have, even if I frequently note that I would welcome more stuff. 

 

For me, the only thing worse than killing 30k would be an 8th edition shift. Because I find that the simplified system is in retrospect hilariously easy to break because the rules are simplified to the point that modifiers easily mutilate the balance and is also really bad at reflecting spectacle and lore. I know some folks think differently, I welcome the view even if you wish to discuss. But I firmly hold that the rules at least in 30K are best left where they are.

 

And when someone that plays IIIrd is worried about change, that should kind of speak volumes.sweat.gif

 

So to answer your question, I hope we see more stuff and am fairly pleased that the signs are good (UM Contemptor comes to mind) but I am happy with things at the moment.

 

Except the lack of MKII and Legion Upgrades, I would sacrifice a minor organ to see those back.


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#3
Bloody Legionnaire

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So, I've been working on my legions for entirely too long now and I've yet to actually play any HH/30k games yet. That's the downside of having too much of a plastic/resin crack addiction. 

 

This has given me a lot of time to read, watch, and think about this wonderful hobby we all enjoy. I'm sad to see it appears GW has completely gone back to their old ways and WH40k once again feels like the bloated and ridiculously unbalanced game it did at the end of 7th edition. Evidently Mr. Bligh was intent on porting over HH/30k to 8th edition but right about now I'm pretty glad that didn't happen.

 

Because I spend so much time over in the 40k forums I wanted to know where you Age of Darkness junkies stand on the state of the HH/WH30k? It seems most of the hyper-skyisfalling-syndrome is finally over and we can see that HH/30k isn't just going to up and disappear. I'm really considering abandoning all of my 40k projects and just focusing on my legion armies and WH30k. I know the big issue for a lot of hobbyist that jumped on the HH train towards the end of 7th when it was the hotness was no longer being able to play against 40k armies with legions because of differing systems. I live in a period large area and I know there are some 30k communities out there so I'm not as concerned about being able to find games. 

 

Are you guys mostly satisfied about where WH30k is at right now?

I did the shift a few years ago now, mostly because I really dig the lore in the Black Books. They have a way of making Legions feel like related but wholly fleshed out cultures and civilizations. You get how they and the Imperium work and they feel much more cleverly engineered than what alot of the novels did. That is not to dis the novels, because they are both usually very good and set the ball rolling, but the Black books usually get to work with alot of hindsight to benefit from and update to fix inconsistencies (until some author decides to flip the table for lols).

 

It is also a matter of tone, I like the spirit of the Crusade for all the monstrousness of it and the fact that you can play a mix of grim dark and also genuine idealism and nobility. You can also play a madman. Thats a lovely thing about Legions, with 100k marines average you can spin your own little narrative out of wholecloth for 'your guys' without having to constantly claim that you arent in the present (literally every Space Wolf player that wants to play an original company). The lore is also generally much more cohesive and straight-faced, which I dig. 

 

The shift became stronger for me over the years as 40K did more and more things I disliked (both mechanically and narratively), with the rise of Primaris and the 8th ed system basically killing it for me. I am a fan of bling, age and complex reflections of individuals so its no wonder that those shifts turned me off (not that it was hard, given the storm of silliness that was late 40k 7th).

 

I love 30k even if I do not play as often as I would like, but I still shell out every now and then to expand my EC and have been thinking of expanding into a second Legion for a while (dig MKIII but I don't dig their iconic legions). I am generally content with what we have, even if I frequently note that I would welcome more stuff. 

 

For me, the only thing worse than killing 30k would be an 8th edition shift. Because I find that the simplified system is in retrospect hilariously easy to break because the rules are simplified to the point that modifiers easily mutilate the balance and is also really bad at reflecting spectacle and lore. I know some folks think differently, I welcome the view even if you wish to discuss. But I firmly hold that the rules at least in 30K are best left where they are.

 

And when someone that plays IIIrd is worried about change, that should kind of speak volumes.sweat.gif

 

So to answer your question, I hope we see more stuff and am fairly pleased that the signs are good (UM Contemptor comes to mind) but I am happy with things at the moment.

 

Except the lack of MKII and Legion Upgrades, I would sacrifice a minor organ to see those back.

 

 

Great thoughts StrangerOrders! 

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. I know there were some complaints about the writing of the most recent black book not measuring up to the others, but the models they are releasing are still excellent. It's going to be nice to see every legion have their own personally Leviathan. I really think we'll see MkII come back, possibly in plastic. The crew of the White Scars speeder confirms that for me. 

It's great to read your positivity as well, I think if more people saw a positive outlook in the the AoD forum and enthusiasm to play it may make others who want to play HH/30k more comfortable with the idea. 


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#4
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Personally, I wouldn't mind if they amended the core game mechanics of HH to incorporate some of the positive changes found in 8th. Of course, which changes are positive and which create a tear in space-time continuum are entirely subjective and dependent on your local neckbeard and which brand of crappy beer he likes. 

 

I have always found some of the sacred cows of 7th ed rules to be a bit head scratching. Personally, I love the streamlined melee rules and universal split fire of 8th, but prefer the deeper strategy element of armor arcs on vehicles and things like dangerous terrain tests--while they slow the game down--keep things interesting and add that precious element of "sorry, General, 4th platoon got stuck in the mud and messed up your grand flanking maneuver." Ya know, the kind of stuff that have swung events in actual history. I also can't stand things like disordered charges, needing assault grenades to not lose initiative when charging into terrain, and having charge ranges being so darn unreliable...if nothing else, I love the ability re-roll a single dice at will as you can with the Command Re-Roll stratagem in 8th. I feel like the ability to re-roll one dice...just one dice once!...in a game is the sort of thing that can make any game go from sucky to fun. I also think the Initiative statline is really cool, and challenges add a certain cinematic quality...but both are kind of lame as implemented: basically it's hope you survive to I1 so your Unwieldy Instant Death AP2 weapon can kill the guy, unless you have that magical AP2-at-Iniative weapon/dude, and then it's just a matter of who has higher Initiative*.

 

TL;DR: mine may be an unpopular opinion, but I personally would like it if they took the best parts of both current 30k and 8th ed 40k and made an even better HH 2.0 game system. I just don't get why it has to be so black and white.

 

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#5
StrangerOrders

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Personally, I wouldn't mind if they amended the core game mechanics of HH to incorporate some of the positive changes found in 8th. Of course, which changes are positive and which create a tear in space-time continuum are entirely subjective and dependent on your local neckbeard and which brand of crappy beer he likes. 

 

I have always found some of the sacred cows of 7th ed rules to be a bit head scratching. Personally, I love the streamlined melee rules and universal split fire of 8th, but prefer the deeper strategy element of armor arcs on vehicles and things like dangerous terrain tests--while they slow the game down--keep things interesting and add that precious element of "sorry, General, 4th platoon got stuck in the mud and messed up your grand flanking maneuver." Ya know, the kind of stuff that have swung events in actual history. I also can't stand things like disordered charges, needing assault grenades to not lose initiative when charging into terrain, and having charge ranges being so darn unreliable...if nothing else, I love the ability re-roll a single dice at will as you can with the Command Re-Roll stratagem in 8th. I feel like the ability to re-roll one dice...just one dice once!...in a game is the sort of thing that can make any game go from sucky to fun. I also think the Initiative statline is really cool, and challenges add a certain cinematic quality...but both are kind of lame as implemented: basically it's hope you survive to I1 so your Unwieldy Instant Death AP2 weapon can kill the guy, unless you have that magical AP2-at-Iniative weapon/dude, and then it's just a matter of who has higher Initiative*.

 

TL;DR: mine may be an unpopular opinion, but I personally would like it if they took the best parts of both current 30k and 8th ed 40k and made an even better HH 2.0 game system. I just don't get why it has to be so black and white.

 

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My own dislike stems from things like the grotesque simplification of WS, which I think neuters alot of strategy and character. It also leads to the -1/+1 to Hit modifier silliness that plagues 8th (and in my limited experience, melee is just outright unpleasant in 8th). I also really disliked that they ripped the guts out of customization, interesting wargear and rules. 

 

But that is sort of the thing, I get that some folks want to be able to bang out a game quickly and without alot of thought. I love that they have that option, what irks me is the idea that after breaking one game, some folks want to kill the remaining support for folks that liked the old way.

 

That to me is less of an 8th or 30k thing, and more about the fact that GW is a frequently-relapsing addict of codex creep and pushing the latest product. Which when combined with 40k's consistently increasing armies (GSC are nice and all, but absolutely moronic when the actual tyranids havent gotten new stuff in forever and it is otherwise an endless cycle of Primaris) and lack of flexibility (Primaris are essentially built around draining you of funds by giving you next to no wargear options for unit flexibility), makes any edition be living on borrowed time from the start.

 

The reason that 30k has survived as relatively balanced is that in the main there are very few principle armies, some Legions are not competitive (IIIrd Players know this) but no one can really be left in the dust because it isnt an endless hype cycle crashing the game into the ground. So the engine of the rules does not affect that really. 

 

But I think there is plenty of room for healthy debate and I am just trying to more or less outline my own stance there.

 

Expecting GW to do something as nuanced as a middle-ground system is... a bit optimistic given their record and their love of stretching FW thin. 

 

The sort of nice thing is that there isn't that in 30k, the rules have been very stable for years. No one needs to constantly be running out to buy new rules which will be useless by the time you learn them. Instead new rules come in the form of new units and armies, as it should be. Rather than the constant patch-storms to put out the fires caused by the latest army breaking the system's back mongol style while lighting an entirely new fire elsewhere. 

 

Its why I do not welcome the idea of taking from 8th, because it is very much a poisoned well for me. It has less to do with 7th having a sacred cow (the things I liked go from several editions ago and I never loved the psychic phase) and more with me being intensely wary of 8th or anything that gives GW a chance to mess up the accidental balance they have created. 

 

But it is certainly an interesting topic to discuss!happy.png


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#6
Brofist

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Nice thread. I work in games and have been playing 30k since the very first day, so my perspective might be a little weird here.

You gotta understand that what's happening right now to 8th edition, and what happened when it was first released, is basically the perpetual cycle of how GW does business. If you've only been on this ride one or two times its less easy to see the pattern, but every new edition generates a lot of excitement, lots of people praise things, and then with time the scope creep starts to set in. People find the problems in the mechanics, power creep sets in, the studio tries to patch things up, and things kinda turn into a cacophony until the next edition.

Our league never embraced 8th. For many it was because the new mechanics took things they enjoyed away. Others can't relate to the story anymore. Others just don't want to be part of another cycle. There is no doubt in my mind that HH will get a second edition that iterates on what's working, we are a specialist game after all, but it won't be anytime soon. There just isn't a reason when it already sells well and you don't have any people to do it anyway.

Inferno was a mess and it really broke the pattern of rules quality fans expected, which was a big downer across the board. Malevolence is a new team and they did a good job. You can see that they are new blood, with new ideas, and more design and balance oriented than before. The old history tome style is being updated with some more 'modern' game design trends. This bodes real well for the future of the game. The community is overall pretty neutral now, the last release smoothing out a lot of the burns from inferno.

I'd say, personally, there are two negative trends in 30k right now: a new art direction for many of the models (which isn't consistent with the original aesthetic or feels uninspired) and power creep. Studio side most of the model designers that worked on HH are either gone, working on Necromunda (where you can really see the polish), or focused on the big ticket models like primarchs. This is sort of expected, considering how long this game has been out and the gig economy most people in games are forced to deal with. GW pays poorly and is located in the middle of nowhere, so while a dream job for many, in reality it's not a very good place to work. As for the power creep, it isn't terrible or anything, but just compare the rules from Malevolence legions with the ones from Betrayal. The design team has gone back and 'patched' Book 1 because of how much has changed. Changes to Book 2 and 3 are probably next, though not yet overdue.

Anyway, in our group at least, 30k is the primary game. A few people have dabbled in 8th, some play it regularly, but probably more than half have sold off their 40k armies and are focused exclusively on the HH. As of right now 30k doesn't get a lot of support, and FW is still a mess compared to how tightly they were running 3-4 years ago, but things have improved and nobody is meddling with what we got going. Balance is ok. It's not as good as it used to be, but its always been better than 40k and the new team has shown they want to keep it that way. All in all, things are pretty good. Though I wish we got things more often HH is humming along with very well established communities of mostly narrative focused gamers.
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#7
Nova_Dew

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So, I've been working on my legions for entirely too long now and I've yet to actually play any HH/30k games yet. That's the downside of having too much of a plastic/resin crack addiction. 

 

This has given me a lot of time to read, watch, and think about this wonderful hobby we all enjoy. I'm sad to see it appears GW has completely gone back to their old ways and WH40k once again feels like the bloated and ridiculously unbalanced game it did at the end of 7th edition. Evidently Mr. Bligh was intent on porting over HH/30k to 8th edition but right about now I'm pretty glad that didn't happen.

 

Because I spend so much time over in the 40k forums I wanted to know where you Age of Darkness junkies stand on the state of the HH/WH30k? It seems most of the hyper-skyisfalling-syndrome is finally over and we can see that HH/30k isn't just going to up and disappear. I'm really considering abandoning all of my 40k projects and just focusing on my legion armies and WH30k. I know the big issue for a lot of hobbyist that jumped on the HH train towards the end of 7th when it was the hotness was no longer being able to play against 40k armies with legions because of differing systems. I live in a period large area and I know there are some 30k communities out there so I'm not as concerned about being able to find games. 

 

Are you guys mostly satisfied about where WH30k is at right now?

I did the shift a few years ago now, mostly because I really dig the lore in the Black Books. They have a way of making Legions feel like related but wholly fleshed out cultures and civilizations. You get how they and the Imperium work and they feel much more cleverly engineered than what alot of the novels did. That is not to dis the novels, because they are both usually very good and set the ball rolling, but the Black books usually get to work with alot of hindsight to benefit from and update to fix inconsistencies (until some author decides to flip the table for lols).

 

It is also a matter of tone, I like the spirit of the Crusade for all the monstrousness of it and the fact that you can play a mix of grim dark and also genuine idealism and nobility. You can also play a madman. Thats a lovely thing about Legions, with 100k marines average you can spin your own little narrative out of wholecloth for 'your guys' without having to constantly claim that you arent in the present (literally every Space Wolf player that wants to play an original company). The lore is also generally much more cohesive and straight-faced, which I dig. 

 

The shift became stronger for me over the years as 40K did more and more things I disliked (both mechanically and narratively), with the rise of Primaris and the 8th ed system basically killing it for me. I am a fan of bling, age and complex reflections of individuals so its no wonder that those shifts turned me off (not that it was hard, given the storm of silliness that was late 40k 7th).

 

I love 30k even if I do not play as often as I would like, but I still shell out every now and then to expand my EC and have been thinking of expanding into a second Legion for a while (dig MKIII but I don't dig their iconic legions). I am generally content with what we have, even if I frequently note that I would welcome more stuff. 

 

For me, the only thing worse than killing 30k would be an 8th edition shift. Because I find that the simplified system is in retrospect hilariously easy to break because the rules are simplified to the point that modifiers easily mutilate the balance and is also really bad at reflecting spectacle and lore. I know some folks think differently, I welcome the view even if you wish to discuss. But I firmly hold that the rules at least in 30K are best left where they are.

 

And when someone that plays IIIrd is worried about change, that should kind of speak volumes.sweat.gif

 

So to answer your question, I hope we see more stuff and am fairly pleased that the signs are good (UM Contemptor comes to mind) but I am happy with things at the moment.

 

Except the lack of MKII and Legion Upgrades, I would sacrifice a minor organ to see those back.

 

 

While i agree with most of what you're saying, one thing i like about 30K is the option not to bling if i don't want to and go for an earlier crusade cleaner look, but that's one thing that 30K gives us, the option on asthetics while the rules for the units don't change, for the most part, if at all.


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#8
Marshal Vespasian

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I am a newcomer to the heresy scene. At least in my Club, heresy players are the ones that dislike certain things from 8th ed and are disenfranchised with the amount of competetive play. Also I feel that a lot of the heresy players are more in it for the hobby aspect.
For me its the Super cool models and the fluff that got me into it. I also like the gaming more as it seems more relaxed in general.
I still got my 40k army and wont leave 40k,because I love my templars, but heresy and 40k feel distinct enough from each other to both be enjoyed for their own merits.
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But viciousness and glory were no longer enough. Killing enemies in battle was no longer enough. I wanted to fight the Eternal Crusade. I wanted to win the war.- Reclusiarch Grimaldus
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#9
Mackenzie

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I had always wanted to start 30k when it launched, I thought it was so cool. But no one in my group was willing to spend the money to get into it. Years later in a different state when BaC and BoP were out I tried again with another group to get it going and it was a non-starter. Then I had a buddy who agreed to start with me when Inferno came out, we were so close. But then 8th happened. I stowed my 30k wolves and was actually pretty excited for 8th.

Initially I liked 8th, it was quick, streamlined, relatively easy to understand. I liked the movement characteristic and AP system returning from 2nd. But then codexes started to drop and it just went down hill so fast. I was trying to paint units nicely and by the time I had them done they had been outclassed or patched or something. It was so frustrating. The last game I played was with my Blood Angels vs New Knights and I got absolutely RoFL stomped by some bare plastic half assembled knights.

After that I found out about the power of Facebook groups, got connected with the New England 30k community, sold 90% of my stuff, traded my wolves for some fresh new in sprue dudes and haven’t looked back.

Now I am here in Ohio getting the Heresy train running. I have 7k or painted IXth and I am having a blast. It only took me a few months of using social media and talking to people to draw the other 30k folks out of the woodwork. The community is strong in 30k and can be built even stronger. I think the future is bright for us. But also pls bring back MKII FW pls.
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#10
TheDreadfulSagittary

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Honestly, I'm absolutely jealous right now on your tales.

All I got was some vague promises years ago. The friend of mine who wanted to join the Heresy left the "big" games last year, and he is all BB and other stuff nowadays. Unfortunately in the local gaming community there isn't any consistency, as they sometimes change game systems more often than underwear biggrin.png I'm only an observer of the group right now, and I didn't want to rejoin them actively.

 

In the last 5 years I built up my Iron Hands legion (I got Ferrus finally last month...), but there is so little chance, that I might use them in a game sad.png

 

Right now I'm considering starting a new 40k army (99% sure, that they will be Space Marines). I'm not a great fan of the new ruleset, but it is nearly the only game, to which you could find an opponent everywhere

 

Nevertheless, I will keep working on my 30k models, and I still hope that we will see some more plastic kits in the near future, that will help us to make the game popular again! And who knows, maybe there will be a chance for me to make some some Heresy side projects.


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I used to be a regular Space Marine, just like you. - but then I took the Horus Heresy in the knee...


#11
Marshal Vespasian

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I was thinking about getting in on the whole heresy thing but was kind of undecided. Then I moved to another City and suddenly there is an active scene and a bunch of dudes who want to play.

On the other hand I am again Stuck with the Problem I had previously with 40k: to play vs to paint

Edited by Marshal Vespasian, 07 November 2019 - 05:28 PM.

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#12
Vykes

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Hmm, man, I think I'm gonna be the outlyer here. So, am I satisfied with where 30K is right now?

 

Short answer: no.

 

I won't pick apart everything, but just as some generalities, it kinda has to be separated.

 

Mechanical front:

Honestly, I play a lot of 30K almost in spite of a lot of its older mechanics. It's the setting and a lot of little nuances that really appeal to me. But mechanically, there are large sections which feel functionally archaic compared to 8th edition, especially on the intuitive side of things. And a lot of the perceived balance feels like it's massively shifted when non-astartes come into the picture in 30K: Custodes, Daemons, Imperialis militia, heavy armour Auxilia, Knights.  

 

While 8th edition feels like a real rules patchwork, it doesn't feel too overwhelming and I like the responsiveness of GW to innovate new playtest rules. Beyond that, there's an element of it in that I just don't care about xenos, so I ignore them in 8e and thus keeping 2-4 erratas isn't a problem.

 

Frankly, AoD has more erratas and Black Book options that I need to keep track of than 8th edition. And that's saying a lot. Beyond that, I'm kinda sick of the homogenized movement speeds, pass/fail AP system, and ancient WS/BS, St/T charts. There's some gamey oddities that happens when they get over the 'normal' range into heroic (like Bs6 plasma being 6 times safer than Bs5 plasma). And while I'd actually really like to keep the Ws vs. Ws chart and I stat to make challenges more cinematic, I'd like to see the 8E style thresholds there with 2's and 6's as possible to-hit results for doubling opponents skill etc. Stuff like that extends the perceived bell-curve and brings some of the smaller rules like Fear or to-hit vs. vehicles back into the fold. 8E's take on it is far more appealing to me, as is -in theory- the return to 2E's AP system which further extends variables.

 

30K has a lot of minutia, and some of it is actually great: the Universal Rules help a lot, scoring system on holding objectives is great, the army building I think is fine, vehicle rules and damage is immensely appealing, cover rules and terrain, and... YMMV on templates, but I can live with them, and the lack of rerolls by and large (though I would kill for a warlord to be able to buy 1-3 rerolls a'la Battlefleet Gothic to keep things heroic). Beyond that, the legion vs. legion combat is workable as it is now but I've never had less fun in a game of warhammer in any edition (from 2E to now) than playing all knight games in 30K.

 

Setting Front:

No question, even with the move towards 8E style art, 30K comes out on top by miles. The setting, the depth and style of storytelling is immense. I keep playing 30K because I adore the Black Books style and the whole intrigue of it. The aesthetic, atmosphere, and general disposition of where they try to focus their efforts with the system are 100% on point.

 

I can't say enough good thing bout that side of the 30K equation. It's why it's still holding me enraptured.  And 30K just looks so much better than 40K model wise and army wise.  Every single one of my 40K armies are built with 30K in mind, they're more just '40K compliant'.  

 

Background Gaming Tendency:

I play probably more 30K at this point than 8E, but I do play both pretty regularly though I don't care in the least about tournament style or competitive playing dynamics: that ain't what I'm here for. But I play in a 30K league and probably get in, say, 2 2.5K games every 3 weeks, and run in as many of the local tournaments and events as possible (We got a 14 player narrative event coming up next weekend with some AT players joining in with the results.  And I'm looking forward to the end of season 5K per player megabattle, so hopefully we can get all 16 players out for a 40K point match). And I probably play 2 games of 1.5K 40K every 3 weeks just with my little group of friends. It's fun, it's all fun. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be playing.

 

I'm unrepentant, 30K's rules are acceptable, but for me, it's feeling its age and could use with a tightened set of more intuitive short hand rules.  Certain facets could easily be improved or tossed completely, and while 8E isn't some golden idol, not everything it did is a step in the wrong direction.  The 30K vs. 40K debate for mechanics often feels like tribalism: "I don't like them because they aren't us, and that makes them wrong."  Faction wise 30K's in a decent spot but I feel like a lot of the love and loyalty for the system comes from that time of legend where it was a very balanced system circ.BB 1-3.  

 

Post scriptum: And don't think I missed you take back that like, Captain_Krash tongue.png  I give unto the Warmaster his due.


Edited by Vykes, 07 November 2019 - 07:47 PM.

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#13
Marshal Rohr

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The thing 30K has 40K is totally missing is depth in the army lists. Only the Auxilia and Mechanicum are really missing the catch all units the Legion List has to give each army diversity. The army list system is great for narrative and making your dudes feel different, even when its fighting the same type of unit on the board that Datasheet system completely fails out. 


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#14
Captain_Krash

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Haha well said Brother Vykes page refresh messed up the like biggrin.png

 

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#15
Vykes

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-cackles- hey no worries Cap'n, just razzin' ya :P

 

Actually I'll just add to Marshal Rohr's bit: the consul system and rites of war systems really help liven 30K up and add a lot of list-depth that I adore.  Consuls really got a terrific tab on how to work in some depth and specialization while retaining a similar base stat line for a minor 'hero'.  Likewise, rites of war can make even the same legion feel drastically different in play and capabilities (I play Luna Wolves and Sons of Horus, they don't feel like the same army).  I kinda wish there was even more of that (and maybe go right back to 3E's core book with the 3 types of HQ's including the 1 Wound veteran sergeant/lieutenant option.  But that's another discussion.) 

 

One of 40K's prime problems is that factions tend to really get lumped into archetypes which the rules reinforce with the strategem and chapter systems.  While 30K has them, to some minor extent, they're never too pervasive and frankly a lot of surprising mixtures can still be crafted.  Legions are flexible, they're organic, they have life and a lot of fluidity in how you want to play.  40K, marines in particular, feel a lot more mechanically rigid. 


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#16
MegaVolt87

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If you stripped out the 40k 8th ed CP and made all the strategems army + unit rules, suddenly the units have way more depth to rival HH unit rules. Same for aura abilities like rites of battle/ chapter master applying army wide etc. I am hoping HH gets relatively caught up/ revised in the next two years with more content. 


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#17
TheTrans

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As relatively new to 30k (was also doing the look into it when 8th dropped, then tried out 8th) but having played a lot of 8th ed tournaments/events/games and now a decent whack of AoD games I can say I probably prefer the AoD rules, but some of them are a mite complex.

I think 8th is great with movement speeds changed around, which is cool, imagine different Mks of armour changing up marines movement.. damn that could be interesting! Could add extra upgrade options to adsec units etc.

But obviously 8th has a heap of issues also, increased/changed movement is great.. but at the same time doesn't really matter as terrain rules are woeful, both with cover and movement. CP's and re-rolls out the arse are also a huge issue in some cases. 

But to me and what i've found in my local area is that its the community that makes or breaks a game. I've found with 30k events, people take cool :cuss because its cool, with smatterings of 'good' choices here and there. Not only that the hobby level is crazy for 30k as well as the love of fluff.

Where as 40k, a lot of people have rushed toghether armies, that are running the latest hotness, all only 'good' choices with a 'well you could take it to, so its on you' sort of mentality. And given the afore mentioned issues with terrain/cover, most of 40k is who ever has the first turn, with the most rerolls win.. with no meaningful way for you to counteract it. Factor in the weird, :cussty reserve rules as well, and the USR's by any other name (I'm yet to see them fix a unit specific rule, they just change the 'equivalent' rule on all datacards anyway, so USR's would of been fine) always getting hammered due to some weird unit that plays with it wrong.

8th is in all honesty a pretty terrible system, espically given the expected scale/size of the armies. There isn't much nuance to it outside of target selection and death-blob formation. 

I really enjoy in AoD when someone misses with an attack (outside of bloody custodes) generally the miss sticks, or that sweep '1' to wound that some how saves the poor little tac sarge from getting annihlated by a greater demon or some such..

Had a ZM battle the other week where my 3 Myrmidon Destructors held up Rogal Dorn and 5 custodes (killing 3 of them) over 2 turns just by poor roles on Rogal/Custodes behalf and some winning refractor field rolls on the Myrmidons.

Those are the fun, awesome and cool bits that honestly would just never occur in 8th ed when you'd reroll your 2+ to hits and 2+ to wounds on every hit... or CP reroll critical rolls every turn. 


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#18
StrangerOrders

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Hmm, this thread isn't kind to the Like ration. 

 

To comment on what folks have said, customization is one of the really lovely things about 30k. You can create genuine 'characters' with the loads of unique wargear, rule options and the like that the game supports. The lore is also so expansive with the Crusade and AoD that you can fit just about anything in any army without great difficulty, with a handful of limitations allowing the faction to still be distinct. Its really awesome that Legion Rules for example allow for their talents to come out in ways that you would not have guessed (IW Jetbikes). Legion-specific units really heighten this, allowing each Legion to fundamentally be the same but also be unmistakably unique.

 

This is at its strongest with DotR and C&A where you can more or less spin your army out of whole-cloth with a ton of options allowing for your imagination to run wild. Especially that the system isnt scared to either gate or lend access to new units depending on what choices you take.

 

It makes me feel xenos players (the big ones, I still have little love for GSC), 30k makes you realize that it makes zero sense that the noble and hierarchical dead of Illyanden play identical to the quarrelsome bikeclans of Sam Haim or that different Hivefleets have no real identity (in the evolutionary sense). But with 8th edition more than ever, GW was content to give most factions literally nothing in favour of continuously making Primaris and spinning entire new armies out of nothing while ignoring the other factions with few exceptions. The Primaris are worse in that they are not even expanding meaningfully on different traditions (shoulders and a fancy sergeant is barely something) so much as just continuously making entirely new units for the range even in places where it does not make alot of sense.

 

It would actually be kind of cool to live in a world where Craftworlds got the equivalent of even one Black Book (enough for the four big Craftworlds).

 

I am not sure if it is a big appeal for folks in general but I am very happy that alot of folks here agree with the sentiment. 


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#19
Indefragable

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When I explain why 30k appeals to me, I try to explain how the Legion-on-Legion meta is actually what makes it diverse and interesting. It's like any major sports league...I'll use American football for example: every one of the 32 teams in the league has 11 players on the field, every single team has at least 1x kicker, 1x quarterback, and both offensive specialists and defensive specialists. So it's boring...right? Since all 32 teams are built the same way?

 

Hells no!

 

How each of those 32 teams use those building blocks, and whether they go all-in on scoring points or trying to shutdown the other team is what makes it so interesting. Whether they try to throw the ball all the time, or tun it all the time....whether they are a punch-you-in-the-mouth sort of team, or one that prefers creative trickery and schemes to get down the field.

 

(even if you don't know anything about American football I'm sure you can follow my point above).

 

That's how 30k feels to me. Even though the differences between forces tend to me more nuanced, those nuances feel dramatically more interesting and effecting to the gameplay for that very reason. 40k can sometimes feel like an American football team playing a women's gymnastic's team in chess. Like....that's kind of interesting, but it can also make your head spin sometimes.

 

As @Vykes pointed out, my beef is mainly with the seemingly complex-for-no-good-reason aspects of the 7th Ed ruleset and the all-or-nothing aspect of things like AP, cover, etc... If things were a bit more scalable on things like that, I would probably do away with 8th for some time (except that I do love certain aspects of "modern" 40k setting....no, not the censored.gif -ing Primaris). I also think Special Rules are a simple enough concept since they can capture game-wide concepts so that when you face something you don't know, you can fall back on Special Rules to get an idea. If they reduced the # of Special Rules and made them more modular, I think it could be a great system (aka get rid of "Zealot" and just say anything that had that has both "Hatred and Fearless" etc...).

 

I truly feel that a great system could be made if you incorporated aspects of both. Keep it simple at its most core mechanics, then just layer tons and tons and tons of complex modular rules on top. Aka, "Basic" is pretty straightforward and meant to bang out quick games...a 6 pack.  "Intermediate" is where you introduce things like Difficult/Dangerous Terrain and Vehicle Armor arcs...a 12 pack.  And then "Advanced" is where you start getting deliciously hairy for those long all-day, with even more intricate aspects where you really want a simulation as much as a game...a 30 rack kind of game.


Edited by Indefragable, 08 November 2019 - 01:11 AM.

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#20
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#21
Bloody Legionnaire

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Really appreciating the discussion so far!

I understand there are some complicated rules involved with 7th edition, but I personally feel it's not the most complex rulebook in the history of gaming. The more time a system of rules are out the easier it is for people to understand and play with over time. One of my problems with GW since I started (6th edition) was how quickly they change rulebooks, which seems to me to be a response to how bloated they make the game with their ridiculous codex power creep. 8e was supposed to be fairly simplified compared to previous editions because of the streamlining, but all of that went out the window and really had nothing to do with the core rules themselves. 

I don't believe any system of rules are perfect, they are created by people who are not perfect so I don't really expect them to be. As long as the game is enjoyable we can suffer through a few things we don't like. I wouldn't mind seeing certain elements of 8e become part of the HH rules but I wouldn't want an all or nothing. There was an argument made a couple years ago by a B&C user who's name I can't remember that 7e wasn't even all that bad as far as rules goes, it just the ridiculous imbalances between armies and all of the books one needed just to play a decent game with an underpowered army. I absolutely agreed with what he was saying. 

 

I'm an American and a pretty big military history buff (parents served and I serve, so it's in my blood) and I really enjoy the in universe "historical re-enactment" (if you will) side to the HH. There's plenty of detail, plenty identity, plenty of substance to build an army with or collect an entire legion from. 

 

Hmm, man, I think I'm gonna be the outlyer here. So, am I satisfied with where 30K is right now?

 

Short answer: no.

 

 

While 8th edition feels like a real rules patchwork, it doesn't feel too overwhelming and I like the responsiveness of GW to innovate new playtest rules.

 

 

 

Frankly, AoD has more erratas and Black Book options that I need to keep track of than 8th edition. 

 

 

 

I'm unrepentant, 30K's rules are acceptable, but for me, it's feeling its age and could use with a tightened set of more intuitive short hand rules.  Certain facets could easily be improved or tossed completely, and while 8E isn't some golden idol, not everything it did is a step in the wrong direction.  The 30K vs. 40K debate for mechanics often feels like tribalism: "I don't like them because they aren't us, and that makes them wrong."  Faction wise 30K's in a decent spot but I feel like a lot of the love and loyalty for the system comes from that time of legend where it was a very balanced system circ.BB 1-3.  

 

 

 

I mean, the rules themselves in 8e may not feel that overwhelming but the insane imbalance absolutely is. And to the second statement I highlighted.. 8e is a much newer edition then 7e HH is, of course there is going to have more errata right now. While I agree with you it's nice that GW appears like they are being more involved but at the same time shoot themselves in the foot by releasing these codexes that break the game and make it unenjoyable for anyone not playing the flavor of the week..

I'll just come out and say it, I don't think the rules in 8e are that great. Simplified is not synonymous with or equatable to greatness, it easy to play at times, yes but that doesn't mean the over all experience is a good one. It detracts from the game system, Risk has very simple rules and is a great war game but it has no where near the level of detail that you'd expect to have in a game like WH40k/30k.


Edited by Bloody Legionnaire, 08 November 2019 - 04:53 PM.

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#22
Vykes

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Aye, I'd agree, simplified is not synonymous with or equatable to greatness, but neither is complexity a badge of honour and maturity*. 

 

Complexity is just a type of observable quality.  After all, Is Campaign for North Africa just inherently the most bestest game of all time? 

 

I mean, the core rules for 8E are written on a folding slip of paper less complex than the sheet I get when I order at Bings Chinese take out. I still think they basically got them right (okay, minus WS, I still like the earlier versus concept better, but even then I don't think previous editions got that right either. Having to roll 3+ for Horus Lupercal to hit a cowering militiaman in close combat is NOT reasonable).  A lot of them are just simplifications of some core concepts that earlier editions felt the need to expand upon like they were the St. James version of wargaming.  8E has a lot of erratas (and a huge swathe of problems) because frankly it has more moving parts (Read as 'filthy xeno scum').  But while the field is a whole lot broader in 40K, 30K's not unbroken by any stretch of the imagination, either.  

 

But I dunno dude, this is very much a Your Mileage May Vary kind of talk.  I play 30K armies in 40K, I'm pretty far removed from the flavour of the week, and I still have fun and do pretty well.  But it's all group dependent: and my 30K group is by far more competitive than my circle of 40K mates and have been the ones doing the 30K side of planning for LVO and the like.  As for that background, no worries my dude: I'm Canadian and my father was in the military back during the FLQ crisis while my uncle was in Nam, which meant as a Quebecois it was more than a little 'awkward' for everyone involved.  I've got my degree in history, I like 30K for exactly the same reasons so I do think we're pretty much on the same page.  

 

... admittedly it's rather bizarrely one of the reasons I don't like templates and the wide squad coherency: it never seems to play out looking like a 30K/Napoleonic illustration but a WW2 advance across a field. 

 

Ah @Noigrim, sorry to hear about that mate.  I always kinda hope to see more 30K groups around as different places end up often showing some fun and different tendencies which contribute a lot to the overall community.  Still haven't played a game of AT, it's pretty quiet here. 

 

@Indefragable, my dude.  I had to convert that to le Hockey, but that's a pretty good example.  Definitely agreed.  

 

*It only just struck me that the BS system for 7E and below is basically the censored.gif Thac0 style system from AD&D.  It's just a really egregious example, but what was the point of having to explain that BS rolls are equal to 7-BS=roll needed to hit, when they could have just put 3+ in its place?  it wouldn't even be the only one there as armour save is written that way.  


Edited by Vykes, 08 November 2019 - 06:50 PM.

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#23
battle captain corpus

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I think its in a very vibrant and appealing place to be honest. Age of Darkness Version 1.0 (try thinking of it as this and not 7th Edt, it shares a lot but it differs too) is a solid game with enough complex mechanics to enjoy it on a different level to 40k.

 

BCC


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#24
Gederas

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*It only just struck me that the BS system for 7E and below is basically the censored.gif Thac0 style system from AD&D.  It's just a really egregious example, but what was the point of having to explain that BS rolls are equal to 7-BS=roll needed to hit, when they could have just put 3+ in its place?  it wouldn't even be the only one there as armour save is written that way.  

Omfg, thank you for pointing this out! I've always been wondering why I hated the 7th edition BS system so much. And that's why. It's THAC0. And I utterly HATE THAC0, it's such a ridiculously and needlessly complex system for something that should be simple.


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#25
mughi3

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Well I just recently started playing 30K and yes you are right- 8th has gone the same path of overbloat that 7th became with formations.


I love the fact they brought better game play to 30K by taking 7th edition and removing all the silly formations and then making all the options way better thematic and performance wise.

Although we do play 30K with a couple minor tweeks-5th edition psyker rules and 5th edition vehicle damage chart(no hull point).
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