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State of the HH vs 40k 8th edition


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#51
Wolf Lord Duregar

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They could even add that in without math. Heavy bolter always treat Armor better than 4+ as a 4+ save. Armor 4+ or up gets no save.

 

Kinda rough on Terminators, no? -1 is not too bad though.. But many do not like modifiers?

 

It's up there on my list of annoying things in 8th like las guns being able to hurt land raiders, vehicles being monsterous creatures without need for facing or LOS from the weapon mounts(seriously breaks immersion, I still turn my dreadnoughts to face in game because it seems wrong otherwise) and loosing stable platform rules for dreads, terminators, bikes and aircraft.

 

 

I can absolutely understand that. But again playing the Devil´s Advocate - it put some balancing between monstrous creatures and vehicles. And stupid, kind of, stuff from older editions where Land Raiders could not split fire and you had glued the twin-linked lascannons at the back hatches and could only shoot one viable target per turn with the big, overcosted thing.. ;)

 

It is different, I have learned to live with the pros and cons.But some of the things bugs me too of course - no use flanking vehicles, but that is kinda mitigated that lasguns can, also wound them.. Even though it is stupid..


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#52
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They can take templates away from my cold dead hands


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#53
Wolf Lord Duregar

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lol, fair enough. :) I like them too, just playing Devil´s Advocate a little bit..

 

Hopefully AoD stays where it is and it seems like what the community for the most part wants?


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"Harden your soul against decadence. But do not despise it, for the soft appearance of the decadent may be deceptive. One need only consider the Harlequin dancers of the Eldar to see the truth of this proposition."


#54
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Horus Heresy should be treated like a Historical Wargame. Historical having a duel meaning.

 

Uses Older edition rules/Horus Heresy, Age of Darkness.

 

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#55
Hirmetrium

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I think that both HH and 8th could learn lessons from other games, including Adeptus Titanicus, by using alternative/staged activations, or even their own Apocalypse system where units can shoot before they are blasted off the board. I particularly like the alternating "chose which fight you want" in the combat phase from 8th too. It really conveys that everything is happening very quickly and simultaneously, rather than one army getting completely swept. There is nothing more frustrating than not having first turn, and then losing chunks of your army to fire power. You can't even move troops into cover out of your deployment zone, because your opponent can shoot first... maybe my time playing x-wing has coloured my thoughts a bit.

 

I will say that I actually really enjoy 8th, because there's a lot of weird stuff in 7th that just isn't fun (picking your warlord trait or physic powers vs rolling, fewer USR to remember/look up, the ability to reroll a critical dice that you needed to pay off on a brilliant tactical move, templates not wiping out your Boyz/Guardsmen)

 

That said, I really, really enjoy HH/AoD too. It's a unique, fun, brilliant game where army building is half the joy. Obviously it has it's own problems, and a lot of complexity, but... what doesn't? Nothing is a perfectly balanced masterpiece, and HH scratches that itch that nothing else seems to have done for me. I love it so much I'm starting a Loyalist force to oppose my Traitor force. I love that people have "their legion" and it's their thing, and they find others who also play that legion, and talk about how to beat other legions, and every legion has their flavour... you just don't get that level of fanatical devotion as you do in 40k, which feels so much more flavor of the week. There's also that obvious "we all love space marines, and own space marines, and our first army was space marines" that has always touched 40k, which is literally the point of HH.

 

So yeah, I think HH might not be the picture of perfect health, but it's doing fine. The new ZM rules and tiles is an opportunity, and proves that even with Alan gone, HH is far from forgotten.


Edited by Hirmetrium, 14 November 2019 - 10:28 AM.

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#56
Marshal Rohr

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The more Warhammer TV and Voxcasts I listen to the more I think Andy H should take over rules design for the Heresy. I’ve never heard someone really nail the mix of narrative and gameplay like he does as he’s talking about his games. He also has a clear distinction between ‘historical’ 40K and ‘modern’ 40k which is nice to hear being incorporated into Games Design elements. I think Wade and Duncan and Nick are all awesome dudes that love the game, but Andy approaches everything like a role playing game. It would be insanely fun to just talk to him about army ideas and background.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 14 November 2019 - 11:20 AM.

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#57
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The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.

I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

#58
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The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.

I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.


Because 40K uses the "I go/you go" system there has always been a bit of that. in 3rd they negated it by area terrain blocking LOS, but even in 4th/5th after they went true LOS terrain, cover saves were actually good enough that it acted as a hard counter. now with armor reduction and cover giving a simple +1 the alpha strike problem has become a glaring issue again in normal scale gameplay where nearly every weapon in the game can get into range very quickly on a standard 6X4 table. I to have had many games in 8th that were basically decided on turn 1
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#59
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The more Warhammer TV and Voxcasts I listen to the more I think Andy H should take over rules design for the Heresy. I’ve never heard someone really nail the mix of narrative and gameplay like he does as he’s talking about his games. He also has a clear distinction between ‘historical’ 40K and ‘modern’ 40k which is nice to hear being incorporated into Games Design elements. I think Wade and Duncan and Nick are all awesome dudes that love the game, but Andy approaches everything like a role playing game. It would be insanely fun to just talk to him about army ideas and background.

If memory serves me right, Andy runs Necromunda right and Tony is in charge of 30k and Forgeworld overall.
I’m a bit split on this idea. I think Andy is doing an incredible job with Necromunda, but given how manpower and Specialist games have functioned in Forgeworld so far, that would mean that he’d leave Munda and go and only do 30k because it’s seems like a zero sum game there. When one system gains resources, it means a loss from another system (as has 30k over the last couple of years.

Then again, if I had to choose which game I would rather have Andy’s talents, I’d choose 30k all the way.
That being said tho, I like what Tony and Anuj are doing and have done with book 8.
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#60
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The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

Because 40K uses the "I go/you go" system there has always been a bit of that. in 3rd they negated it by area terrain blocking LOS, but even in 4th/5th after they went true LOS terrain, cover saves were actually good enough that it acted as a hard counter. now with armor reduction and cover giving a simple +1 the alpha strike problem has become a glaring issue again in normal scale gameplay where nearly every weapon in the game can get into range very quickly on a standard 6X4 table. I to have had many games in 8th that were basically decided on turn 1

That’s why you use the XXth ;)

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#61
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The more Warhammer TV and Voxcasts I listen to the more I think Andy H should take over rules design for the Heresy. I’ve never heard someone really nail the mix of narrative and gameplay like he does as he’s talking about his games. He also has a clear distinction between ‘historical’ 40K and ‘modern’ 40k which is nice to hear being incorporated into Games Design elements. I think Wade and Duncan and Nick are all awesome dudes that love the game, but Andy approaches everything like a role playing game. It would be insanely fun to just talk to him about army ideas and background.

If memory serves me right, Andy runs Necromunda right and Tony is in charge of 30k and Forgeworld overall.
I’m a bit split on this idea. I think Andy is doing an incredible job with Necromunda, but given how manpower and Specialist games have functioned in Forgeworld so far, that would mean that he’d leave Munda and go and only do 30k because it’s seems like a zero sum game there. When one system gains resources, it means a loss from another system (as has 30k over the last couple of years.

Then again, if I had to choose which game I would rather have Andy’s talents, I’d choose 30k all the way.
That being said tho, I like what Tony and Anuj are doing and have done with book 8.

I kind of want Andy to be a hobby fairy godfather where he just pops in adds a bunch of narrative and floats on to the next project. Spread the genius around like fairy dust.
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#62
Hirmetrium

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The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

Because 40K uses the "I go/you go" system there has always been a bit of that. in 3rd they negated it by area terrain blocking LOS, but even in 4th/5th after they went true LOS terrain, cover saves were actually good enough that it acted as a hard counter. now with armor reduction and cover giving a simple +1 the alpha strike problem has become a glaring issue again in normal scale gameplay where nearly every weapon in the game can get into range very quickly on a standard 6X4 table. I to have had many games in 8th that were basically decided on turn 1

That’s why you use the XXth msn-wink.gif

 

I mean, yeah its one of the perks of being the XXth, and again that's part of what I love, that we can all be smug bastards about our favourite legion... and we all know how wonderful it is when you get that sieze.

 

The reducing the impact of the alpha strike is a reasonable point.

I often play against a heavy support heavy Iron Warriors and if I go second, its pretty much settled before I even move. You can't survive long against an Arcus, a leviathan and 10+ krak missiles for long without killing some of them first.

 

I mean this is where deployment rules / terrain / weapon ranges should all come into effect and be balanced against one another... until the drop-pod lands on you.

 

8th's terrain rules are dog-:cuss, which is why ITC format exists and Iron Hands are currently top tier.


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#63
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It actually bodes well because it tells me they've realized the niche 30k has and that they want to capture the same for fantasy.
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#64
Wolf Lord Duregar

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I really hope so. That made my day, I think.. It makes me a bit upset.. :cussting on it and then digging up the corpse, or so it feels - I guess I have to wait a few years until I know.

I kinda like the idea of having both those systems around, HH and WHFB, run like HH is now - for a more mature crowd and with more hobby involved (there is more options in HH, like older editions 40k, that is what I mean, not just the stuff you get in a plastic box as options for upgrade)

 

Interesting..


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#65
Wolf Lord Duregar

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Dunno, but hope so-ish, FW seems better these days but yeah, drains resources from 30k.. Hopefull they get a few more lads working there? :/

 

Nah, WHFB has not always been the smaller game, it was the other way around when I started. Not sure when 40k got bigger though.

 

lol, poor sods. I don´t blame them though. Fnatasy, like 4th to 8th Ed was fun. I enjoyed it. I actually enjoyed 8th Ed more. The back ranks got into the fight so those +1, +2 dudes at the back not only gave combat resolution but also get to swing a bit.. ;)


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"Harden your soul against decadence. But do not despise it, for the soft appearance of the decadent may be deceptive. One need only consider the Harlequin dancers of the Eldar to see the truth of this proposition."


#66
Wolf Lord Duregar

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I will say that from a customer experience perspective, AOS <> FW Warhammer was handled very poorly. This whole thing is done in hindsight of burning old players and now knowing they will pay a premium to play a classic edition analogous to 30k.

 

Welcome to the GW hobby.. ;)


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#67
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Plenty of other places to discuss news and rumours concerning other games systems folks. Keep it on topic or...... - clicks kill switch on Crozius - .... msn-wink.gif

 

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