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Balancing Doctrines


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#26
Medjugorje

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I would say that everyone should decide at which doctrine they start but if they change it... they cannot go back (except with stratagem)... so all chapter could start with the strongest doctrine as well. 



#27
MARK0SIAN

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I think forcing people people to go through the doctrines would just take away a lot of the ability to create different armies and would lead to a sad homogeneous build for all chapters as they’d have to have stuff to take advantage of each doctrine.

It also kind of flies in the face of exactly what doctrines are meant to represent, which is the tactical expertise of the marines. It’s hardly tactically expert for a devastator/vehicle/heavy weapons dominant force to say:
“Right guys we’re switching to tactical doctrine now.”
“But sir, wouldn’t it make sense to keep all our weapons at their optimum ability by staying in Dev doctrine?”
“Nonesense Sgt, now make sure those lascannon guys have fixed bayonets for the next change.”

However, I do agree that chapters who benefit most from assault doctrine definitely got the short end of the stick there. The ability to start in any doctrine you want should be available to all chapters.

#28
Pandaemonium

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Perhaps allow players to declare a doctrine rotation before deployment? The player is required to choose their doctrine rotation order and must include all three doctrines in an order. It would allow assault doctrine based chapters to start in assault or get there turn 2, but not force progression. It also would allow your doctrine rotation to be setup to coordinate with your list, be it D>A>T, T>A>D, D>T>A, etc...

 

Then again, probably too powerful.


Edited by Pandaemonium, 09 November 2019 - 01:18 AM.


#29
Aothaine

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Hmm... so maybe having a style where you choose which doctrine your in, similar to Deathwatch, might be the best approach then.


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#30
Black Blow Fly

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Don't forget squad doctines. That thing is a hidden gem.

Yup, I mentioned that one as decent, just couldn't remember the name of it off hand and was too lazy to look it up.  lol.  I can see a case for it being bumped up to good instead of decent.  It can have an impact.

The one to fall back shoot at normal ballistic skill and charge again is very powerful. Just because you’re not generating 100+ mortal wounds doesn’t mean they are any weaker. Smurfs are the most balanced... I’ll take it .
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#31
Indefragable

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How dare any of you question Lord Guilliman’s infinite wisdom. It always best to start in Devestator, followed by Tactical, followed by Assaukt. There is never a reason to do otherwise. Ever. Guilliman says so.

Heretics.
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#32
MegaVolt87

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Doctrines are fine IMO. Paying a CP upkeep tax would just remove the carrot  of mono dex SM. So it would be a return to Imperial soups more so. Current doctrines are perfect to encourage SM mono dex, they have succeeded as they are now. 


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#33
Ishagu

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Mono Astartes are already struggling for CP. People really need to be patient at this point.

Future books might increase the power of other armies, future missions might change the way the game is played. Heck, there's rumours of a new edition coming next year.
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#34
Aothaine

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Mono Astartes are already struggling for CP. People really need to be patient at this point.

Future books might increase the power of other armies, future missions might change the way the game is played. Heck, there's rumours of a new edition coming next year.

 

Awfully rational of you. Where was this mind-set at the release of Iron Hands? lol! I'm just messing with ya Ishagu. 

 

But yeah, waiting and seeing is going to be the best approach. I created this post to get the feel of what people thought of the system. I like it. I have also seen quite a few good arguments to keep it the same. Something I had completely forgotten is that you have to play mono dex to even get the bonus. This is really awesome as I have been wanting to get rid of soups for years and GW seems to have found a way to start that process or at least make mono-dex armies competitive as well. 

 

Still I wonder if this means cool things like "The Lion and the Wolf" stratagem will be removed.


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gallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Wolf Pack - Space Wolfs (Iron Wolves)

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The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

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Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any rule set

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur, Kell's Last Battle, Awakening, Sagas of the Wolf Pack


#35
Lord_Caerolion

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Given the other flavorful Stratagems that have been brought in, like the Istvaan ones for the Raven Guard etc, I can't really see them removing things like that.


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#36
Nusquam

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The largest problem I see is that turn 3 is just too late. IGOUGO turn order where an entire army has two turns to slay your assault elements is too much of a draw back. You do have to build a well rounded list but that just means your assault elements are worse off. Doctrines in tactical and especially Devastor get immediate returns on shooting. Assault has too many steps and turns to be successful.

At the latest you want to be in combat turn 2. A fast forward strat specifically assault doctrine armies is the easiest way to help them.
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#37
Exilyth

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Forced rotation of doctrines would completely eleminate player agency w/regards to doctrines.

 

Would be nice if it was:

 

At the start of the game, pick one:

  • use the doctrine system as it is now
  • pick one doctrine and only that doctrine is active for all rounds (can only be changed via stratagems).

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#38
Frater Cornelius

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I don't think the doctrines in general are an issue. It is just a selective army-wide buff of 1AP. A blanket change won't do anything constructive. It is the Combat Doctrines of each individual chapter that needs looking at. So far I consider RG and UM the most balanced. Both have some useful weapons for the dev doctrine and work best in tactical and may want to go assault at some point. UM has the greatest flexibility with 2 ways of activating Tactical Doctrine for a unit. IH and IF are the worst offenders, because they are active in turn 1. Those need to be looked at specifically. WS are weird, because theirs is OBSCENELY powerful, but only comes T3. Personally, I like the power level of it and that it is turn 3, but I would like for them to get a way to trigger its effect earlier for certain units, like UM. Got no experience with SL, so I won't comment.

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#39
Marshal Arthur

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Sorry to dredge up this old topic but I've been thinking about the doctrines and wanted to know what you all think of my suggestions. I figure with how destructive first turn shooting can be for Iron Hands and Imperials Fists that it might be best if we allow the player to switch doctrines freely between turns with the one caveat that doctrines don't kick in until turn two. Basically, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists can't access their super doctrine until turn two so they can't completely decimate the enemy right away, and on top of this on turn two you can choose any of the doctrines to go active so other sub factions can jump straight to their super doctrine on turn two.



#40
Black Blow Fly

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Give it up please. I am thinking factions should just be able to start in whichever doctrine best suits them. Watched a bunch of current batreps over the holiday break featuring some top SM players and they did not win every match nor even the majority.
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#41
redmapa

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I dont think they need balancing, only reason there was a huge "domination" in terms of tournament placements was because a lot of people play marines but even then they didnt win everything, they didnt top more tournaments than other top contenders. If I could change anything about doctrines then I would make them work like Deathwatch doctrines, you choose one to begin with and then can swap to another after that AND THEN have an option to pay 1CP to change it again if you wanted, remove the time aspect of doctrines because honestly they dont do much at this point, assault armies dont gain anything for waiting 3 turns and tactical/devastator armies just dont move from their doctrines, its a superfluous mechanic that does nothing in terms of balance or effectiveness. 


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#42
Brom MKIV

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The data I've seen says SM of all flavors were over performing. Were.

Thats pre PA and pre CA 2019. At this point I don't think a rebalancing is needed or advisable considering the pace of releases and the power of the releases. Probably best to leave it be IMO.


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#43
Aothaine

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Just want to point out that I created this post almost a month ago now. Keep it friendly. This was just a thought experiment.


gallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Wolf Pack - Space Wolfs (Iron Wolves)

Flesh Tearers - 5th Company

The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any rule set

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur, Kell's Last Battle, Awakening, Sagas of the Wolf Pack





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