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Inquiry Regarding Decisions for 2020: Input Requested


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#1
Aothaine

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Hey everyone!

 

So I'm going to be building a new army for 2020-2021 and on. I am about 75% positive that the army will be Space Marines of some variety. Sisters of Battle hold the 25% that is left. What concerns me most is that I want to make sure my investment will not be phased out in the next 5-10 years. So, in order to be really safe I'm limiting my units to those in the current codices or new ranges. In regards to Space Marines I'm leaning on two factions right now. Ultramarines and Iron Hands.

 

The core of my army will be scouts on land speeder storms. So part of the decision I need to make here is how these troops interact with the chapter rules and doctrines. With Iron Hands I will most likely be staying in Devastator Doctrine as the majority of the army will have heavy weapons and being able to move and fire them without penalty is very nice. The thing is that the rest of the scouts will have rapid fire bolter weapons. So, here is the question. Do I give up the move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty, 6+++ save for the Ultramarines utility of falling back and shooting and moving and shooting without penalty in tactical doctrine? Also, the bolters will all get -1 ap in tactical doctrine.

 

There are lot of other things to consider like strategems and named characters. But my primary concern right now is how the troops will work in conjunction with the chapter rules. I've built the first list idea for the Iron Hands and linked it in my signature if you want to get some more information is what I'm looking at building if I choose Iron Hands. I'm still working on a primary list for Ultramarines. But I think it will consist of more infantry blocks and less elite units.

 

Anyway, what do you all think? Ultramarines or Iron Hands?


gallery_45765_12339_7181.pnggallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any ruleset

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur


#2
Sete

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Raptors.

#3
Cruor Vault

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Basing an army around Scouts and Landspeeder Storms and NOT expecting them to be part of the stuff that is phased out over the next few years is quite the act of cognitive dissonance.

 

They're also some of the least useful units in the Marine book at the moment.

 

If you're looking to build a new army of Marines, I would stick to Primaris models only.  Especially as many of the legacy rules/wargear combinations that are being exploited on old marines will be squatted using Legends/CA2019.


"You're a brave man robot...  But when I'm in charge, every mission is a suicide mission!"


#4
Aothaine

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Basing an army around Scouts and Landspeeder Storms and NOT expecting them to be part of the stuff that is phased out over the next few years is quite the act of cognitive dissonance.

 

They're also some of the least useful units in the Marine book at the moment.

 

If you're looking to build a new army of Marines, I would stick to Primaris models only.  Especially as many of the legacy rules/wargear combinations that are being exploited on old marines will be squatted using Legends/CA2019.

 

You really think that they are going to squat the Scouts and LSSs? They are in the just released Space Marines codex. I'm limiting myself to non-index units. Those are for sure getting phased out. But I would be really surprised if they phased out units that are entries in the just released Space Marines codex.


Edited by Aothaine, 08 November 2019 - 06:05 PM.

gallery_45765_12339_7181.pnggallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any ruleset

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur


#5
Captain_Krash

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To answer you question with the units you want to use...

 

Seriously go reasonable marines ie Raptors.

 

If you want an army that will last the next 5-10 years with 100% support and even "oversupported"

 

Play Primaris Ultramarines

 

Krash


Edited by Captain_Krash, 08 November 2019 - 06:03 PM.

Ad Victoriam

 

For those we cherish, we die in glory!


#6
Aothaine

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To answer you question with the units you want to use...

 

Seriously go reasonable marines ie Raptors.

 

If you want an army that will last the next 5-10 years with 100% support and even "oversupported"

 

Play Primaris Ultramarines

 

Krash

 

The Raptor colors are awesome. I love that green a lot. But I don't see how they fit the play-style I want at all. Looking for Speed, covering fire and mobility.

 

Yeah Primaris Ultramarines are for sure guaranteed to not get squatted for a long time. It is a strong option as well. But I was conflicted about a few rules which is why I was asking.


Edited by Aothaine, 08 November 2019 - 08:29 PM.

gallery_45765_12339_7181.pnggallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any ruleset

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur


#7
Brom MKIV

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Ultra successors.

You still get move and fire without penalty which makes that build pretty damn cool and viable, plus you have the redeploy shenanigans and the best incursors. 

 

If your wanting to focus on troops an ultra successor will be more fluid and rewarding, even more than IH I believe.


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..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
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The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#8
Black Blow Fly

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I highly recommend you play some test games using both faction rules before you decide. Both are awesome now but Smurfs will always endure.
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The world would be a better place if people stopped complaining about Primaris Space Marines.
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#9
Aothaine

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Ultra successors.

You still get move and fire without penalty which makes that build pretty damn cool and viable, plus you have the redeploy shenanigans and the best incursors. 

 

If your wanting to focus on troops an ultra successor will be more fluid and rewarding, even more than IH I believe.

 

How do they have the best Incursors? I'm not entirely against building a Successor. Slightly concerned I will not get to use units like Guilliman though. :/

 

If I do end up going with the Successor I already have one in the works. The Roaring Lions in my sig. :D Still working on finding a decent lion image for the chapter badge though.

 

I highly recommend you play some test games using both faction rules before you decide. Both are awesome now but Smurfs will always endure.

 

For sure! I'm not investing until Feb 2020. So I have some time. I was just trying struggling to decide between the two factions as the moving and not having penalty to heavy weapons fire really suits the list I wanted to make with Scouts and Land Speeder Storms, 9 Land Speeders with the missile launchers then a 10-man assault terminator squad with Terminator Bash Chaplin and a Terminator Librarian. Iron Hands are quite scary. Maybe it will just be better to make a DIY chapter so I can be fluid with the rules and play what ever I feel like minus the named characters?

 

Isn't the new rule that you can have a DIY painted how ever you want and use the rules you want in sanctioned GW tournaments? As long as it is not an established successor right? That might be the best option for me.


gallery_45765_12339_7181.pnggallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any ruleset

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur


#10
Cruor Vault

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Ultra successors.

You still get move and fire without penalty which makes that build pretty damn cool and viable, plus you have the redeploy shenanigans and the best incursors. 

 

If your wanting to focus on troops an ultra successor will be more fluid and rewarding, even more than IH I believe.

 

How do they have the best Incursors? I'm not entirely against building a Successor. Slightly concerned I will not get to use units like Guilliman though. :/

 

If I do end up going with the Successor I already have one in the works. The Roaring Lions in my sig. biggrin.png Still working on finding a decent lion image for the chapter badge though.

 

 

Ultramarines can redeploy up to 3 units after you decide who is going first, when combined with the 'Princepts of Deceipt' Warlord Trait you can theoretically redeploy up to 6 units before the start of the first turn!  Combined with the Ultramarines super doctrine, your Incursors are practically never going to be in danger, and benefit heavily from Tactical Doctrine. 

 

Against units with camo cloaks UM incursors are effectively AP-3 and always fire twice at full range!

 

 

Basing an army around Scouts and Landspeeder Storms and NOT expecting them to be part of the stuff that is phased out over the next few years is quite the act of cognitive dissonance.

 

They're also some of the least useful units in the Marine book at the moment.

 

If you're looking to build a new army of Marines, I would stick to Primaris models only.  Especially as many of the legacy rules/wargear combinations that are being exploited on old marines will be squatted using Legends/CA2019.

 

You really think that they are going to squat the Scouts and LSSs? They are in the just released Space Marines codex. I'm limiting myself to non-index units. Those are for sure getting phased out. But I would be really surprised if they phased out units that are entries in the just released Space Marines codex.

 

 

Will they be removed entirely from the annals of history? NO.  Are they going to continue to get careful support and have the rules slanted towards their use?  Also NO. 

 

The new books have heavily pushed Marine players towards Primaris units over any others and will surely continue to do so.


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"You're a brave man robot...  But when I'm in charge, every mission is a suicide mission!"


#11
Aothaine

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Ultramarines can redeploy up to 3 units after you decide who is going first, when combined with the 'Princepts of Deceipt' Warlord Trait you can theoretically redeploy up to 6 units before the start of the first turn!  Combined with the Ultramarines super doctrine, your Incursors are practically never going to be in danger, and benefit heavily from Tactical Doctrine. 

 

Against units with camo cloaks UM incursors are effectively AP-3 and always fire twice at full range!

 

 


Will they be removed entirely from the annals of history? NO.  Are they going to continue to get careful support and have the rules slanted towards their use?  Also NO. 

 

The new books have heavily pushed Marine players towards Primaris units over any others and will surely continue to do so.

 

Regarding Incursors. Thank you! :D

 

Regarding sticking with Primaris and dropping the scout idea. Solid point. Suppose that pretty much sums it up then. Either gonna go Primaris Ultramarine(successor?) or Sisters of Battle then.

 

Might as well drop all the terminator ideas I had as well too then. No Centurions, etc. But I'll eventually build and paint up some Dev Cents anyway because I love the models.


gallery_45765_12339_7181.pnggallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any ruleset

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur


#12
Brom MKIV

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All very good relevant points on incursors. What I was really speaking of though is for specific UM strats.

I was brewing with incursors across various books and had an epiphany so I brought them to my bro who plays defensive ultras. We tested them and then he literally went and purchased 20. 

 

Example:

UM successors- Whirlwind of rage, bolter fusillades

10 incursors with squad doctrines + sons of guilliman or chappy they will average around 43 hits at ap 1 (edit- 55 is for reivers which I'm also messing with)

Add gene wrought might to taste for harder targets. For a troops focused army like his incursors are a godsend. They get him out of his DZ and into a more aggressive force without moving away from troops. They answer PBs and hordes in general, have utility against a host of armies like eldar, alpha legion etc etc. 

In ultras they act more like an elites choice then in any other chapter.  

 

Squad doctrines we have found to be like the votlw for UM. Where vets increases damage by 16% SD can increase damage by 50% and its can be used similarly i.e. multiple times each turn. Very underrated strat IMO. 


Edited by Brom MKIV, 08 November 2019 - 11:23 PM.

..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
-FerociousBeast

The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#13
Cruor Vault

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Squad doctrines we have found to be like the votlw for UM. Where vets increases damage by 16% SD can increase damage by 50% and its can be used similarly i.e. multiple times each turn. Very underrated strat IMO. 

 

FYI: Squad Doctrines is used at the start of the movement phase, so it can only impact a single unit each turn.  So you lose the AP on Rapid Fire weapons and the always count as stationary from UM super doctrine if you're using it for bonus AP in the assault phase.


"You're a brave man robot...  But when I'm in charge, every mission is a suicide mission!"


#14
Brom MKIV

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Ah we glossed that part!

I remember it now but after delving into the combo more it got lost. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Hmm I'll have to reevaluate the whole thing now. Not sure its a deal breaker for incursors looking to assault in the coming phase. But definitely impacts other options. 

 

 

Edit- ya I think these guys are still great.

20 shots ignoring cover/mods. If they want ap1 fire they can get it and count as stationary.

If they can position to assault then its going to be better to pop assault doctrine on them due to exploding 6s and then direct bolter fire at the best target which is possibly in double tap range anyway.


Edited by Brom MKIV, 09 November 2019 - 12:21 AM.

..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
-FerociousBeast

The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#15
jaxom

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Slightly concerned I will not get to use units like Guilliman though. :/....

 

Isn't the new rule that you can have a DIY painted how ever you want and use the rules you want in sanctioned GW tournaments? As long as it is not an established successor right? That might be the best option for me.

 

Special characters are the only reason I can think of to go a specific chapter with a known primogenitor. Going DIY gets you everything else and you can swap between rules sets as you like.


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