Returning to 40k, advice needed

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

Greetings Brothers!

 

After a long hiatus I was thinking, that I might return to the battlefield of the 8th edition. I only played one or two games at the start of the new edition, but since then I absolutely ignored the game, and only looked for the shining new models they put out nearly every month. I have a small Imperial Knights army (mostly for showcase-reasons), but I think that they aren't the best force to go for the first time. Originally I was an Imperial Guard, sorry, Astra Militarum player, but I sold my army years ago. Now, I'm mostly a collector with a rather big Horus Heresy collection and an Adeptus Titanicus force.

 

After weeks of thinking I settled with the plan to build a Space Marines force, step by step. Now, I need some help and advice, how to start with the Astartes in this new edition.

 

1. Primaris vs. Old Marines: is there a balance, or (as a new player) it would be better to jump straight onto the Primaris-wagon? I still have some unbuilt marines from the Heresy, and honestly I love the Vanguard, Sternguard and Devastators boxes. Are these still viable? 

 

2. I'm not settled on the Chapter I want to run. I have Iron Hands and Sons of Horus in HH, and I read, that IH is one of the strongest armies right now, but I want something different from them for 40k. I'm interested in the regular Codex Chapters (like WS, UM, IF), and maybe Blood Angels, because it's ages since I painted anything red (retired Khador player here) 

 

3. I want something that is diverse, yet able to do the job on the battlefield. Something that stand it's own on the tournament, but without the silly unit-spam. Well, that's one of the reasons that I choose SM, because they where always the most diverse forces of 40k. What box/boxes would you suggest for a 1000 points starter army?

 

 

[Slasher956]

Not a SM player here.... but I'd look at Battle Scribe first... have a play around with some lists of vairius flavours (the program also gives you the unit & faction rules but not stratagems) compairing the models count & look with what you see on GWs webstore to see what it looks like on paper before spending any cash...

 

As for unit spam in tournaments - GW have updated the rules to limit you to 3 data sheets that arent troop or transports in your whole army... so no more 4 chaplins with no other HQs or 6 units of land raiders etc

[Exilyth]

Wlcome back.

 

1. Primaris vs. Old Marines: is there a balance, or (as a new player) it would be better to jump straight onto the Primaris-wagon? I still have some unbuilt marines from the Heresy, and honestly I love the Vanguard, Sternguard and Devastators boxes. Are these still viable?

Primaris vs. Oldmarines is hard to answer.

 

Primaris cost more points, but get better equipment and most have more wounds than oldmarines (e.g. tacticals: 1 w, intercessors: 2 w). Primaris marines are equipped 'legion style', e.g. all troopers in a squad have the same weapons (except intercessor sergeants as of late). Their units are specialised for specific roles. Primaris marines are currently lacking dedicted meelee units and their model range is not completely fleshed out yet.

 

Oldmarines on the other hand can customize their squads, e.g. a tactical squad can take a special weapon and/or heavy weapon and the sergeant can pick from a list. This allows creating squads cut out for a certain purpose, but also runs the risk of overloading on equipment & wasting points.

 

There are a lot of oldmarine units which can still perform good on the tabletop, e.g. scouts and attack bikes are still usefull as cheap filler and whirlwind and thunder fire cannon (TFC) are two of three options for indirect fire. Unfortunably tactical squads (oldmarine troops) are in a bit of a pickle as many weapons which can kill primaris marines are even more as efficient at killing tactical marines (due to 2 wounds vs. 1 wound).

 

 

Looking at low points armies, lists could look e.g. like this:

• for primaris: primaris captain, primaris lieutnant, 5 intercessors, 5 intercessors, 3 aggressors
• for oldmarines: captain, lieutnant, 5 tacticals, 5 tacticals, 5 scouts, 5 devastators

Primaris cost more points per model, so their list has less models, but they have more wounds per model.

The most effective would be ofc. a mix of primaris and oldmarines units, but both can perform well without the other.

 

If I was starting over with marines, I'd start with primaris marines - less models needed and they're currently in the starter sets & (what feels like) every second box set.

 

2. I'm not settled on the Chapter I want to run. I have Iron Hands and Sons of Horus in HH, and I read, that IH is one of the strongest armies right now, but I want something different from them for 40k. I'm interested in the regular Codex Chapters (like WS, UM, IF), and maybe Blood Angels, because it's ages since I painted anything red (retired Khador player here) 

 

What are you looking for in your army?

• Shooting or meelee?
• Mobility or a static gunline?
• Are there specific units you want to play?

e.g. eliminators are quite strong in raven guard but need to stand still to get the most out of their heavy guns.

Similarly, vehicles are strong in iron hands, but dreadnouts are slow and tanks are weak to meelee.

 

We get threads discussing the pro and con of each codex chapter somewhat regularly, e.g. the latest is http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359315-ranking-the-space-marine-supplements/

 

 

3. I want something that is diverse, yet able to do the job on the battlefield. Something that stand it's own on the tournament, but without the silly unit-spam. Well, that's one of the reasons that I choose SM, because they where always the most diverse forces of 40k. What box/boxes would you suggest for a 1000 points starter army?

 

That would depend a lot on primaris vs. oldmarines and chapter choice.

 

I'd say: Get the Codex first - with the rules in hand, you'll be able to make more informed buying decisions.

 

Some things to consider would be:

• start collecting boxes
• starter box halves sold on ebay & other places
• similar for shadowspear (vanguard primaris)
• upcoming cristmas battleforce boxes (there's one primaris and one blood angel afaik)

 

Some generic, chapter & list agnostic things:

• Most space marine army lists benefit from a captain and/or lieutnant - you could get them as separate characters, but they're often included in box sets.
• For primaris marines, you will probably want a core of ~20 intercessors as troops.
• For oldmarines, you will probably want a core of scouts as troops and devastators for heavy firepower.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Exilyth

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

Thank you for your answer, Exilyth!

 

 

 

Wlcome back.

 

Primaris vs. Oldmarines is hard to answer.

 

Primaris cost more points, but get better equipment and most have more wounds than oldmarines (e.g. tacticals: 1 w, intercessors: 2 w). Primaris marines are equipped 'legion style', e.g. all troopers in a squad have the same weapons (except intercessor sergeants as of late). Their units are specialised for specific roles. Primaris marines are currently lacking dedicted meelee units and their model range is not completely fleshed out yet.

 

Oldmarines on the other hand can customize their squads, e.g. a tactical squad can take a special weapon and/or heavy weapon and the sergeant can pick from a list. This allows creating squads cut out for a certain purpose, but also runs the risk of overloading on equipment & wasting points.

 

There are a lot of oldmarine units which can still perform good on the tabletop, e.g. scouts and attack bikes are still usefull as cheap filler and whirlwind and thunder fire cannon (TFC) are two of three options for indirect fire. Unfortunably tactical squads (oldmarine troops) are in a bit of a pickle as many weapons which can kill primaris marines are even more as efficient at killing tactical marines (due to 2 wounds vs. 1 wound).

 

 

Looking at low points armies, lists could look e.g. like this:

• for primaris: primaris captain, primaris lieutnant, 5 intercessors, 5 intercessors, 3 aggressors
• for oldmarines: captain, lieutnant, 5 tacticals, 5 tacticals, 5 scouts, 5 devastators

Primaris cost more points per model, so their list has less models, but they have more wounds per model.

The most effective would be ofc. a mix of primaris and oldmarines units, but both can perform well without the other.

 

If I was starting over with marines, I'd start with primaris marines - less models needed and they're currently in the starter sets & (what feels like) every second box set.

 

 

 

Yes, my greatest fear with the Oldmarines is, that they will be completely replaced within a year. I like some Primaris units, but not all of them. Intercessors are one reason, that I'm looking for the Space Marines, because I love the sculpts, but the jump infantry and the aggressors not that much. If mixing the two variants is still a viable way, and with that I didn't loose the ability to play a competitive list, that I will be a happy Chapter Master.

 

 

What are you looking for in your army?

• Shooting or meelee?
• Mobility or a static gunline?
• Are there specific units you want to play?

e.g. eliminators are quite strong in raven guard but need to stand still to get the most out of their heavy guns.

Similarly, vehicles are strong in iron hands, but dreadnouts are slow and tanks are weak to meelee.

 

We get threads discussing the pro and con of each codex chapter somewhat regularly, e.g. the latest is http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359315-ranking-the-space-marine-supplements/

 

 

 

Because my Iron Hands are a gunline army with tank support I would like to have something more melee oriented. I love the Vanguard Veterans box, but I didn't had the opportunity ever, to make a force with a sizeable jump infantry support. Are the Blood Angels still the best bet when I want to go that way?
Maybe a mixed force of Primaris and Oldmarines would be the way to go for me. It seems the hardest choice will be the chapter. It is really nice, that GW is trying to add more diversity to the Codex-compliant chapters too. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by TheDreadfulSagittary

[SkimaskMohawk]

White scars, blood angels and raven guard get a lot out of melee. White scars and raven guard can combine both ranges (old and primaris) pretty well, with scars leveraging things like assault terminators and chainsword vanguard the best.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Mixing the two styles of marines is the strongest path. I wouldn't worry about the old line getting phased out in a year. There are still alot of holes in the primaris line up that need to be filled, plus alot of the rules were focused on older units.

 

As far as chapters are concerned one of the best parts of the new marine rules are the successor traits which basically let you combine two traits to make a custom set of rules for your chapter, then you can look for which supplement would fit your playstyle best.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Greetings Brothers!

 

After a long hiatus I was thinking, that I might return to the battlefield of the 8th edition. I only played one or two games at the start of the new edition, but since then I absolutely ignored the game, and only looked for the shining new models they put out nearly every month. I have a small Imperial Knights army (mostly for showcase-reasons), but I think that they aren't the best force to go for the first time. Originally I was an Imperial Guard, sorry, Astra Militarum player, but I sold my army years ago. Now, I'm mostly a collector with a rather big Horus Heresy collection and an Adeptus Titanicus force.

 

After weeks of thinking I settled with the plan to build a Space Marines force, step by step. Now, I need some help and advice, how to start with the Astartes in this new edition.

 

1. Primaris vs. Old Marines: is there a balance, or (as a new player) it would be better to jump straight onto the Primaris-wagon? I still have some unbuilt marines from the Heresy, and honestly I love the Vanguard, Sternguard and Devastators boxes. Are these still viable? 

 

2. I'm not settled on the Chapter I want to run. I have Iron Hands and Sons of Horus in HH, and I read, that IH is one of the strongest armies right now, but I want something different from them for 40k. I'm interested in the regular Codex Chapters (like WS, UM, IF), and maybe Blood Angels, because it's ages since I painted anything red (retired Khador player here) 

 

3. I want something that is diverse, yet able to do the job on the battlefield. Something that stand it's own on the tournament, but without the silly unit-spam. Well, that's one of the reasons that I choose SM, because they where always the most diverse forces of 40k. What box/boxes would you suggest for a 1000 points starter army?

1. IMO it is better to jump onto the Primaris wagon and use old marines to fill gaps.  Primaris marines I think are already superior in terms of their overall abilities and support from the new codex.  This trend will only continue although I would not be worried about a rapid phase out.  GW seems to be taking their time with replacing old marines and even gave the old marines new rules in the most recent codex.  

2.  Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines are the chapters I think that have the most flexibility.  They can run both vehicles and infantry lists well and bring the pain.  Salamanders I think are the most variable since they are very good at shooting and close combat and can make any unit deadly with their absurd stratagem Crucible of Battle.  I would wait until Chapter Approved and PA3 come out before making a decision though.  Those books will contain content for Blood Angels that is likely to improve them substantially.

 

3.  The space marine apocalypse box, the new start collecting shadowspear box, and dark imperium are all good buys.  

[TheDreadfulSagittary]

White scars, blood angels and raven guard get a lot out of melee. White scars and raven guard can combine both ranges (old and primaris) pretty well, with scars leveraging things like assault terminators and chainsword vanguard the best.

 

White Scars are the ones, that are tempting me the most aside the Blood Angels. I've never painted white armor before, and I'm always ready for something new  

Raven Guard on the other hand not, because I painted lots and lots of black armoured figures in the past years...

 

Mixing the two styles of marines is the strongest path. I wouldn't worry about the old line getting phased out in a year. There are still alot of holes in the primaris line up that need to be filled, plus alot of the rules were focused on older units.

 

As far as chapters are concerned one of the best parts of the new marine rules are the successor traits which basically let you combine two traits to make a custom set of rules for your chapter, then you can look for which supplement would fit your playstyle best.

 

That's good to hear. It would be nice to get a collection, that is both appealing to me, and stands his own on the tabletop.

 

 

1. IMO it is better to jump onto the Primaris wagon and use old marines to fill gaps.  Primaris marines I think are already superior in terms of their overall abilities and support from the new codex.  This trend will only continue although I would not be worried about a rapid phase out.  GW seems to be taking their time with replacing old marines and even gave the old marines new rules in the most recent codex.  

2.  Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Ultramarines are the chapters I think that have the most flexibility.  They can run both vehicles and infantry lists well and bring the pain.  Salamanders I think are the most variable since they are very good at shooting and close combat and can make any unit deadly with their absurd stratagem Crucible of Battle.  I would wait until Chapter Approved and PA3 come out before making a decision though.  Those books will contain content for Blood Angels that is likely to improve them substantially.

 

3.  The space marine apocalypse box, the new start collecting shadowspear box, and dark imperium are all good buys.  

 

 

Thank you for the advice. If I remember it correctly the PA3 book will land in December. I think I can wait until it arrives with any purchase  

Out from the individual unit boxes what are "must have" in general terms? I know that it depends on the playstyle, but are there any boxes, that a Space Marine player (no matter which symbol he wears on his shoulders) should consider buying?

[SkimaskMohawk]

The hot items right now are thunderfire cannons for everyone and centurions for white scars, raven guard and imperial fists. Contemptor mortises are still very good as well.

[Claws and Effect]

Raven Guard on the other hand not, because I painted lots and lots of black armoured figures in the past years...

Could always run a successor.

 

There's a Chapter called the Rift Stalkers that is all Primaris and wears white armor.

 

Or the Raptors, who wear olive drab armor.

 

And it's easier than ever to make Your Dudes with the Successor Tactics in the Codex.

[Exilyth]

For meelee, good chapter choices could be

• blood angels: get a bonus to wound in meelee, can perform T1 charges with smash captains
• white scars: get a bonus to charging
• raven guard: more of a shooty choice, but their stealthy CT could help reach meelee.
• space wolves: if you can get over the 'wolfy wolf wolves of wolfiness', they have many meelee oriented units like wulfen, thunderwulves, dreadnoughts with shield & axe and stuff like that. Did I mention the wolf theme yet?
• ultramarines: more of a generalist choice, their 'counts as stationary when shooting' can help them advance across the table.
• salamanders: more of a short range choice, have many sources of toughness buffs and their favourite weapons (melters & flamers) make them want to get close

 

As for paint job: I'd suggest doing your own custom chapter with its own scheme so you can play them as whatever chapter.

[Dracos]

 

Raven Guard on the other hand not, because I painted lots and lots of black armoured figures in the past years...

Could always run a successor.

 

There's a Chapter called the Rift Stalkers that is all Primaris and wears white armor.

 

Or the Raptors, who wear olive drab armor.

 

And it's easier than ever to make Your Dudes with the Successor Tactics in the Codex.

 

 

 

Actually DIY Chapters seem to be the thing at the moment of the tournament circuit. Double Battalions, one dedicated to one mission objective (Hold More) and the second to another (Kill More)