First Tournament in ages. Some suggestions needed

[Schultzhoffen]

Hi

 

I;m trying to get a good list together with what I have. I'm happy to buy some things (but not too many of them). The tournament is at 1750 points. I've been super busy over the past 2 years (only managed a handful of games) but I'm diving back in. 

 

Any ideas/help/tactica suggestions would be welcome. I'm toying with some rejigging to get Chronus in the Predator.

 

Anyway, here's the list:

 

Ultramarines:

Battalion:

 

HQ:

 

Captain, Relic Blade

Lieutenant - Bolt gun

 

TROOPS

 

x5 Intercessors: Chainsword, Bolt rifles

x5 Intercessors: Chainsword, Bolt Rifles

x5 Infiltrators

 

ELITES

 

x6 Aggressors (boltstorm and frag)

Apothecary

Invictor Warsuit (Flamer version)

Invictor Warsuit (Flamer Version)

 

HEAVY

 

Tri-Las Predator

x5 Devastators - x4 Grav Cannons, armourium cherub, Drop Pod

 

 

2nd Detachment

 

HQ

Chaplain Cassius

 

HEAVY

Stalker Tank

Stalker Tank

Stalker Tank

 

9 CPs

 

The warsuits and 'pod put pressure on from turn 1 while the Aggressors move up the board. The Stalkers hopefully give me an edge against fliers.

 

Thanks

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Are there lots of flyers in your area ?

[Cruor Vault]

I would drop the Apothecary and Cassius and use the points to throw Chronus in one of those Stalkers instead.  You don't have a 'big bad' unit for Cassius to buff in this list, so a lot of his litanies aren't super helpful.

 

If you have any Eliminators, 2 units of 3 with Bolt Snipers is a fantastic addition.

 

You also should consider changing your Captain out for a Primaris version, the extra wound and attack is quite valuable and the weapon options of the mini-marine version aren't very much use outside of a smash build.

[Joukernaut]

I would think the aggressors would fit the 'big bad' unit that can benefit from litanies. Six aggressors with +1 to hit and +1 to wound or +2 to charge would eliminate most enemy units.

If you can drop the pod next to Cassius and a dangerous enemy unit and pop +1 to hit, +1 to wound, gravitic amplification, scions of Guilliman and use the cherub it will do some serious work, it will statistically bring down a knight to its lowest bracket every time, killing without rotating ion shields.

A tri-las pred could also benefit a lot from litanies, and there's also plenty of infantry that could benefit from 5+ FNP vs mortal wounds. Cassius adds some extra flexibility to deal with different matchups.

[Cruor Vault]

I would think the aggressors would fit the 'big bad' unit that can benefit from litanies. Six aggressors with +1 to hit and +1 to wound or +2 to charge would eliminate most enemy units.

If you can drop the pod next to Cassius and a dangerous enemy unit and pop +1 to hit, +1 to wound, gravitic amplification, scions of Guilliman and use the cherub it will do some serious work, it will statistically bring down a knight to its lowest bracket every time, killing without rotating ion shields.

A tri-las pred could also benefit a lot from litanies, and there's also plenty of infantry that could benefit from 5+ FNP vs mortal wounds. Cassius adds some extra flexibility to deal with different matchups.

 

Litanies are done at the start of the battle round.  You cannot combine the the +1 to hit and +1 to wound litanies with Drop Pods as they require the unit to be on the table so it can be targeted.

 

I'm not denying Cassius' strengths, just his place in this list.  Much of the army is going to be spread out and aside from the Aggressors there aren't any individually scary units.

[Prot]

I like the list overall quite a bit. I think Cassius ability makes him worth it but I do use a simple Primaris Chaplain myself, just continually casting +1 to wound on Aggressors. The Apothecary will work for you there, I guarantee it... unless he gets sniped.

 

If I’m being picky and using my own experiences, the predator doesn’t work for me. If you had Impulsors, Razorbacks, Flyers, ets in the list I’d be okay with it. That pred is going to get focused in every game. No one will shoot at a stalker while it exists.

 

Because you don’t have fly, and a lack of speed, my personal suggestion would be to get a TFC in there. Double firing and slowIn opponents is a great manipulation. Not mandatory but the utility is huge. You are an infantry army that is gong to suffer from a lack of speed and vehicles.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Prot

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One TFC is almost mandatory now.

 

I like Cassius with +1 to hit and +1 to wound... chances are you’ll get at least one litany. If you get both on say DevCents it’s super scary.

[Schultzhoffen]

Lots of great suggestions. Thank you.

 

I've got the predator for some anti tank. Unfortunately, I don't have the Thunder fire model or I'd definitely find a place for it. With Chronus, the Pred can always fire at BS 2, regardless of damage.

 

I could drop the pred (and make some adjustments) for Devastator Centurions. However, that leaves me with NO las cannons. Dev Cents, while good are VERY slow.

 

Cassius is useful because he is very cheap for 2 Litanies and T5.

 

The Apothecary is there to keep the Aggressors alive as long as possible.

 

I kinda agree about a Primaris Captain but....points. My HQs have never really been more than a buffing unit.

 

I'd upgrade him to a Chapter Master and add him to the Aggressor Unit.

 

The Lieutenant with the Seal of Oath Relic would park with the Stalkers and Predator (Yes, I'm expecting a LOT of fliers - Eldar, for a start, but Stalkers pump out a huge amount of fire power against any opposition, including Repulsors, and any other unit with the FLY keyword - I think that they're a bit under rated). 

 

I'm hoping the two Warsuits  and the drop pod will create such a headache that the Aggressors will have a turn to get into position and the Heavy Support units (Predator and Stalkers) will be secondary for a turn. Those Aggressors can be game winning. In a practice game, they killed a mobbed up unit of 40 Orks in one round of shooting. The trick is to get them into position by creating pressure in other areas. If I go second, I'll use RAPID REDEPLOYMENT and play cagey.

 

I'm toying with the idea of swapping Infiltrators for Incursors.

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Schultzhoffen

[tychobi]

Your list right now is easy to target. Your two big stars are not easily hidden and will be focused immediately. The pod is scary if it can do catastrophic damage but again once it is there focused down in a hurry. Stalkers are ok defensively but pretty thin offensively. More active threats could give opponents more target priority issues

[Schultzhoffen]

I'm open to suggestions....

[Frater Cornelius]

I think that if you're going for 2 Invictors and a Predator, you should either double down on armour or abandon it and go heavy in infantry. I am not really counting the Stalkers, because they are a niche choice and cheap enough so you don't care if they're shot. As it stands, I feel like your Predator is a sitting duck, with the Invictors not far behind.

The vehicle option would be to go easier on Aggressors. 3 as a independent distraction unit, no apothecary. Drop the Grav bomb. Drop Cassius and get a Tech Marine, which you upgrade to MotF with the +1hit trait. You give the Invictors Ironhail for more dakka at longer range and use the points to include some Thicc Bois. A dakka Redemptor is very nice. A Leviathan wouldn't hurt (you), you can think about a Repulsor Executioner or go for the ever-popular Quad Las Dreads.
You can even keep 5 Aggressors and include some aggressive armour and move forward.

The infantry version would be dropping the Trilas. I'd also drop the apothecary. No one's going to give you the chance to resurrect anything. Maybe reduce Aggressors down to 5. Instead pack a bigger unit of Intercessors to benefit from things like Rapid Fire stratagem, look into taken a Thunderfire Cannon to chill with the Stalkers, Suppressors are nice. The Ancient would work well.

There are many options. My main crticism is that the list lacks focus in terms of target saturation. Would have a bit of this and a bit of that. This will only get you so far.

 

Edit: since Cassius is the only thing you have, I would also consider going Stealthy + Master Artisans Successor and simply take a Chaplain and upgrade him to MoS in the second concept, or straight up going without one in the first. You'll get more mileage out of that in any case. The big draw of UM are Calgar and Guilliman. Everything else has become replacable since PA F&F.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Frater Cornelius

[Schultzhoffen]

Thank you.

 

If I drop the Tri-Las, the apothecary, an Aggressor, I'm left with around 250-260 points.

 

Ok, how do I spend them? 

 

I don't have a Thunderfire Cannon and won't get Forgeworld stuff because of cost and getting another book to see their rules.

 

What are the best options in the codex? Add a Redemptor to the mix? Expand the Intercessor squads?

 

If I drop that Tri-Las, I've very little to combat armour at range.

 

...oh, and I don't know what Thicc Bois are. My slang/street talk is virtually nil :)

[Schultzhoffen]

Ok. Some changes. Not 100% sure, just spit balling.

 

10CPs

 

Ultramarines: (1750 pts)

 

BATTALION

 

HQ:

 

Captain, Relic Blade, Master crafted boltgun -Chapter Master

Lieutenant - Master crafted Bolt gun - Relic: Seal of Oath

 

TROOPS

 

x5 Intercessors: Chainsword, Bolt rifles

x5 Intercessors: Chainsword, Bolt Rifles

x5 Incursors

 

FAST

x6 Inceptors - Assault Bolters

 

HEAVY

x5 Devastators - x4 Grav Cannons, armourium cherub, Drop Pod -( I'm quite happy for them to drop, do damage and be a suicide unit that can't be ignored).

 

VANGUARD

 

HQ

Chaplain Cassius

 

ELITES

 

x6 Aggressors (boltstorm and frag)

Invictor Warsuit (Flamer version)

Invictor Warsuit (Flamer Version)

 

 

SPEARHEAD

 

HQ

Chronus

 

HEAVY

Stalker Tank

Stalker Tank

Stalker Tank

 

I'd love a Leviathan Dred but.... money....

 

My worry is: I don't have real anti-tank - no weapons above STR 7.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Schultzhoffen

[Frater Cornelius]

Thicc bois are thick boys. I am referring to units with a bit more meat (or metal) to them, like Dreadnoughts. Okay, so that's 262pts free. Drop that Relic Blade. This guy won't hold in combat against units that want to be there. That's another 9pts freed. Give him a Stormbolter instead. If you have a spare relic, the UM SB is nasty. Upgrade the Invictors to Ironhail. That way you can keep them back, increasing their chances of survival. Bump up one of the Intercessors to a 10-man unit. A deep-striking unit of Suppressors are always useful in UM. If you have 2, that would fill most of the points back up. If not, you can a Suppressor and another 5 Intercessors. If you are staying pure UM, an Ancient with the UM banner, another 5 Intercessors and giving them all Fists. That way you can threaten heavy stuff up close and deal with chaff on your way there. Bolt Eliminators are also a decent way to fill up some slots, as well as Scouts. If you're going for Scouts, the you might consider filling up a second Battalion instead and add a Tech Marine as your 4th HQ and upgrade him to MotF to babyset Stalkers. Really depends on what you have.

 

Yes, you will be lacking anti-heavy-tank, but you lack anti-heavy-tank as it is, because the Trilas Pred will not live beyond turn 1 and won't reliably kill some of the heavier stuff, because they usually have an invulnerable save. Between the Stalkers, 2 Ironhail Invictors and, for example, 2x3 Suppressors, you have enough to bring down light armour and either ignore or melee heavy armour with Fists + UM Banner. If you're going heavy on infantry, you should focus more on killing his infantry and then outscoring him by using UM mobility for board control. This is another reason why Scouts, Eliminators and Suppressors are solid. They get there quick. I feel like most SM lists shouldn't worry about long-ranged anti-heavy-tank, because that was and still is a weakness of SM. You can compensate, but for most lists, the investment required makes it ineffective. That's my take on it, anyway.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Frater Cornelius

[Schultzhoffen]

Good ideas - I like Suppressors but don't have any. Will the Inceptors do in a pinch?

[Ishagu]

Do you feel you're making the most of the Ultramarines' strengths in those lists?

 

I don't feel you have enough troops.

[Frater Cornelius]

Good ideas - I like Suppressors but don't have any. Will the Inceptors do in a pinch?

 

I would invest in some in the long-run. They are good in SM in general and UM in particular, along with IH and RG. Until then, I would consider more Troops. Sure, a unit of 3 is fine, but you really need more boots, preferably with Fists. I wouldn't mind seeing no Inceptors and more Intercessors, at least one unit of 10 for the Rapid Fire stratagem, some Power Fists, Scouts, maybe Eliminators, maybe ancient. That sort of stuff. And if you do not field enough UM stuff to justify keeping them, I would suggest Stealthy + Master Artisans. If you're staying UM, the Banner, the SB on the Captain and Cassius are good picks.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Frater Cornelius