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Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett


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#701
fire golem

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No ones really mentioned it, but need to mention just how awesome Camba Diaz is. He's one of those characters who I wanted so much more info about, purely just for his cool :cussing name, since he was mentioned in Mechanicum. But in Saturnine....boy

 

Spoiler

 

 

So here is a question thats making me nervous as I'll have to paint the guy soon:

What color is sigsmunds armour? IIRC in first wall they said it was black

 

Black, with yellow detailing(i presume the shoulderpads) and an ebon tabard.

Spoiler


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#702
Lord Lorne Walkier

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So... Loken is

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler
.  


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#703
m_r_parker

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Well, I largely stayed out of this thread because I wanted to read the book without any spoilers or signposts to plot points, and I think this may be the best of the series so far. It's an incredible feat of work, and my previous concerns around having too many characters was nothing to be worried about at all. 

It's nice to see the traitors not be reduced to cliche, and be both competent and relatable. The only over-the-top performance would be Fulgrim, but I expect that from the Daemon-Primarch of Slannesh. 

 

I do have spoiler-based conversation and discussion, so please use your own judgement before reading the below. It's well worth going through the book without prior knowledge (although it's probably a little late for that now for some people):

Spoiler

 

I think this is well-worth a re-read, only to see what I've missed first time round.


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#704
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The Sanguinor has already made appearances in the HH books, there was a short story on his creation, and he appeared again in Ruinstorm.



#705
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Well, I largely stayed out of this thread because I wanted to read the book without any spoilers or signposts to plot points, and I think this may be the best of the series so far. It's an incredible feat of work, and my previous concerns around having too many characters was nothing to be worried about at all. 

It's nice to see the traitors not be reduced to cliche, and be both competent and relatable. The only over-the-top performance would be Fulgrim, but I expect that from the Daemon-Primarch of Slannesh. 

 

I do have spoiler-based conversation and discussion, so please use your own judgement before reading the below. It's well worth going through the book without prior knowledge (although it's probably a little late for that now for some people):

Spoiler

 

I think this is well-worth a re-read, only to see what I've missed first time round.

 

 

The Sanguinor has already made appearances in the HH books, there was a short story on his creation, and he appeared again in Ruinstorm.

 

@m_r_parker

 

Spoiler

Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#706
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No ones really mentioned it, but need to mention just how awesome Camba Diaz is. He's one of those characters who I wanted so much more info about, purely just for his cool :cussing name, since he was mentioned in Mechanicum. But in Saturnine....boy

Spoiler



So here is a question thats making me nervous as I'll have to paint the guy soon:

What color is sigsmunds armour? IIRC in first wall they said it was black


Black, with yellow detailing(i presume the shoulderpads) and an ebon tabard.

Cant wait to read about the fists part in this then.

Hmm so since my fists are siege of terrs themed I should propably paint him as such. Not gonna do an ebon tabbard tho. Thats too much black for my taste.

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#707
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No ones really mentioned it, but need to mention just how awesome Camba Diaz is. He's one of those characters who I wanted so much more info about, purely just for his cool :cussing name, since he was mentioned in Mechanicum. But in Saturnine....boy

Spoiler

 

So here is a question thats making me nervous as I'll have to paint the guy soon:

What color is sigsmunds armour? IIRC in first wall they said it was black


Black, with yellow detailing(i presume the shoulderpads) and an ebon tabard.

Cant wait to read about the fists part in this then.

 

 

Diaz has a fairly large parts, as far as can be with the large cast. Fafnir Rann is about the same again, perhaps a touch less than Diaz. Sigismund and Thanes parts are relatively small in the grand scheme of things, but pivotal for all that. Oh and Cadwalder, a Huscarl, also has a proper role.

 

It's my favourite depictions of the Fists since Praetorian of Dorn I'd say, not to say I didn't enjoy them in Solar War, but they weren't PoD level. Dorn himself is also fantastic in it.


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#708
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I'm going to wait for proper release and a re-read for an actual review. Here are some thoughts:

 

1. Listen to StrangerOrders and read the damned book. A large number of complaints in this thread are non-issues in the text.

1b. StrangerOrders, if Lost and the Damned were this long, I don't think I would have survived.

 

2. This book is Abnett on his A-game. A tentative 10/10 from me, I was grinning like an idiot for all 550 pages. Undoubtedly the best of the Siege so far, and the best Heresy book in a very long while. Nearly every concept on display in the series so far has been outdone by Abnett here, from big epic moments to down-in-the-dirt soldiery. Characterization is spot-on throughout the board, and the pacing is superb. I almost want to read it again already.

2b. I really wish Abnett just ignored wordcount like in this chonker with his other works. In this alternate dimension, Mcneill inherit's Abnett's strict adherence to the 400-page count.

 

3. People familiar with Gaunt's Ghosts will recognize his habit of sending characters to their apparent demise only to have them show up later. I'd wait for certain author's entries before taking "off-screen" deaths too seriously. Various other big reveals should probably be viewed in the same light.

 

Spoiler

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#709
Angel_of_Blood

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Oh and also regarding the end:

Spoiler


#710
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Spoiler


Edited by Kelborn, 01 April 2020 - 11:49 AM.
spoiler tags added


#711
fire golem

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Oh and also regarding the end:

Spoiler

 

The hairs on the back of my neck went up reading the last paragraph.

 

Spoiler

 

@b1soul, we’re just ignoring spoiler tags then?


Edited by fire golem, 01 April 2020 - 09:14 AM.


#712
b1soul

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I am guessing Wraight is up next?

#713
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One thing that I was going to add, but forgot before. I'm going to put it in Spoiler tags even though 1) it's not a spoiler, and 2) it's detailing something that hasn't happened yet. There are some supplemental details in there which are more spoiler-y though, so read at your peril. And also please be mindful of other when you reply, and please everyone wash your hands!!!

 

Spoiler

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#714
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In older fluff it was a prominent point about the Emperors Children, that they abandoned the Siege relatively early on and took to attacking and tormenting the civilian populace of Terra for fun.  Presumably the White Scars are going to sally out in an attempt to protect civilians and/or gather imperial forces not at the palace for when they retake Lions Gate Spaceport, and they will encounter the Emperors Children whilst doing this. 


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#715
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One thing that I was going to add, but forgot before. I'm going to put it in Spoiler tags even though 1) it's not a spoiler, and 2) it's detailing something that hasn't happened yet. There are some supplemental details in there which are more spoiler-y though, so read at your peril. And also please be mindful of other when you reply, and please everyone wash your hands!!!

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

Edited by Angel_of_Blood, 01 April 2020 - 03:17 PM.

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#716
Fedor

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Primarch fights...

 

Spoiler

Edited by Fedor, 01 April 2020 - 07:48 PM.

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#717
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Chris Wraight has placed a pretty clear reference to the Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate back in The Carrion Throne, so I'd wager that duel is inevitable. The question is one of when, not if.

 

The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.


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#718
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One thing that I was going to add, but forgot before. I'm going to put it in Spoiler tags even though 1) it's not a spoiler, and 2) it's detailing something that hasn't happened yet. There are some supplemental details in there which are more spoiler-y though, so read at your peril. And also please be mindful of other when you reply, and please everyone wash your hands!!!

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

I :cuss -ing love Khan. 


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Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#719
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Wasn't there something in one of the Wraight Scars books that talked about the Khan dying if/when he fought Mortarion? I know that isn't canon, but can't recall what exactly was said.



#720
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Chris Wraight has placed a pretty clear reference to the Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate back in The Carrion Throne, so I'd wager that duel is inevitable. The question is one of when, not if.

 

The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

 

 

I was sort of hoping that would be Wraight playing with history and the two never actually coming to blows again. I'm down for either, though I think there are far more interesting places to take their dynamic than yet another primarch brawl. Otherwise I'd rather see him try Fulgrim.

 

But if they do meet face to face I hope Jaghatai gets thrown into the webway or something.


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#721
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I will honestly be pretty happy the more we see 40k history being bs. 

 

Seriously, the idea of 10k years of a gap with an even broadly correct history is more suspension breaking for me than anything else. Moreso when the factions saying it are a theocratic authoritarian state (and quadrupedally so if we go with the neo-feudal version of the Imperium) and a splintered collective of egotists with lying as a rather key part of their religion.

 

That anything resembling accuracy would exist in the telling is mind-numbingly silly to me.

 

The only beings I would trust to keep anything resembling an accurate record would be Trazlyn. Because A. He would not care enough to change it and B. Most of the Necrons are asleep and unavailable to twist the facts to suit an agenda.

 

Least of all because even at his best Sinderman is more or less intellectual dishonesty incarnate. And this is the book where he is trying to be better.


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#722
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Chris Wraight has placed a pretty clear reference to the Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate back in The Carrion Throne, so I'd wager that duel is inevitable. The question is one of when, not if.

 

The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

 

 

I was sort of hoping that would be Wraight playing with history and the two never actually coming to blows again. I'm down for either, though I think there are far more interesting places to take their dynamic than yet another primarch brawl. Otherwise I'd rather see him try Fulgrim.

 

But if they do meet face to face I hope Jaghatai gets thrown into the webway or something.

 

 

I think something pivotal as two Primarchs duelling during the big Siege, after which the Palace would be in for some... remodeling, is precisely the sort of thing that would be captured in art around the location of the battle. Seeing that it even depicts Mortarion with a reasonable degree of accuracy, looking at Manreaper, it makes me think that no historical shenanigans would be afoot here. If they wanted to depict the Khan fighting a daemon Primarch, it might as well have been Fulgrim, or Angron, but the artist chose Mortarion.

 

For me, it's enough to think that present day folks have no idea who Mortarion is anymore, and thus look at the murals in confusion, recognizing only the Khan. That's a figure they've been told time and again to worship, after all, while the enemy Primarchs were pretty much forgotten about. There is no need to additionally make the depiction factually incorrect, especially when it was added to the Lion's Gate back when rebuilding happened, which might have even been under Dorn's supervision before he left Terra. At least I doubt he'd have just taken his Legion and left with the Palace's defenses basically broken, and it may also have been a cathartic experience for him to be rebuilding some of the more vital structures and putting the bling back - remember, he always at least claimed he would be putting everything back the way it was, once the war was over.

 

It's a fairly safe assumption that a lot of those memorial statues and what not were commissioned or produced at least during the time when the Primarchs were still around, and Guilliman took control of the High Lords for a while. Terra was properly rebuilt during the War of the Beast, at the very least.


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#723
b1soul

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Spoiler


Mortarion vs. the Khan again would be less interesting to me, as we've seen it already and in all likelihood both are going to survive again. So less impact there. Against Fulgrim, if it happens, we get to see how the Khan would handle a full-blown Daemon primarch. I don't think it's going to be a mere duel as the Khan should be a bit more wily than that, i.e. he likely understands the gifts of Daemonhood and that he's probably screwed if he goes 1v1 against that.

Based on BL works like Ashes of Prospero and The Last Hunt, I don't think the Khan is going to fall at the Siege. Might be a possibility, but it would be an unlikely decision IMO...kinda like the idea of Lorgar biting the dust there. Might as well have Dorn die at the Siege as well...gut punches all around /s. In all seriousness, there is no commercial upside to a decision like that...so yeah, GW/BL probably not going to let any primarch be perma-killed at the Siege unless firmly established by the foundational lore.

The Khan's death vision people are referring to is this:

Spoiler


#724
mc warhammer

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it can be either, right? i don't know if one is more valuable than the other.

 

idk if the timeframe for the work commission is that much of a yardstick to measure accuracy. even today, propaganda and self aggrandisement interfere with cold hard facts on tv, film, documentary, newspapers, etc. social media is doctored. in terms of pure art, trumbull's "the declaration of independence" was painted within the lifetime of the actual declaration and is not considered accurate as far as historians are concerned, but the general public takes it at face value.

 

i wouldn't be surprised if the khan and mortarion do brawl and it's literally depicted in art. i also wouldn't be surprised if they never crossed swords and the image is simply the artist's flowery way of depicting two primarchs on opposing sides. i also wouldn't be surprised if there were more artworks depicting the khan taking on fulgrim, angron, magnus, et al respectively. because that sort of myth building is exactly what would happen as humankind tries to psychologically recover from the heresy. there's probably works depicting ferrus dying there at the siege.

 

in the dark millennium guilliman may be doing his best to remove any and all artwork depicting him standing on top of a mountain of slain chaos primarchs in front of the palace walls.

 

i think that's one of the coolest things about this setting


Edited by mc warhammer, 02 April 2020 - 03:10 AM.

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'WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?’

 

#725
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@StrangerOrders I do not disagree with you, but I think that ship has sailed. Especially with Guilliman having returned in40k and more or less  same person....that’s what we were gonna get.

 

i mean, it would have been neat to have had Russ be a St. Bernard, Sanguinius have been an imaginary friend and a Horus just be an imperial army commander who is one helluva leader able to convince half the imperium to turn rogue, and the Emperor is actually all too human whose “secret project” down in the “Imperial Dungeon” was in fact an all too human distraction. “It’s good to be the king...” ;) 

 

...and then after 10,000 years it’s become these Greek gods each representing some virtue or vice and Horus is made out to be corrupted by unfathomable power because the idea of a mortal general almost conquering back the entire Imperium is far too dangerous an idea to get out to the masses.

 

 

.....but no, GW/FW/BL went a different route and we already have what we have so I don’t see the harm in the literal take on things continuing. Besides, the core truths of momentous events tend to stick around and even their most embellished retellings have the core premise right. 


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