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Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett


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#751
Marshal Loss

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There isn't room.

Opinions are one thing, but this is categorically wrong. Ignoring for a moment the fact that from a practical standpoint there will always be as much room as the authors desire for something like this to occur, 40k is quite literally a setting that revolves around forgotten knowledge; it's a core tenet of the universe. Speaking as a historian, you'd be shocked at how easily information is corrupted and how quickly narratives go awry without any purposeful malevolence or negligence on the part of primary sources. I experience this as readily working with Herodotus as my colleagues do sifting through reports written by WW2-era soldiers the very day of a major engagement.

 

I'm guessing you may not be pleased at this development but there's little point in waving your hands around and saying it can't happen. As of right now, barring a twist of unprecedented

Spoiler
proportions, it clearly can and does happen. All that remains is to wait and see how it plays out.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 06 April 2020 - 02:16 AM.

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#752
b1soul

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@ Roomsky
Apart from Krole, could you please eleborate? Would like to hear your take, as mine is far from the gold standard.

I guess almost none of the characters really resonated with me or seemed to advance in their arcs (or even have arcs). My connection with the characters was based on my prior knowledge of them and their deeds in other BL works.

It could just be a case of me, the reader, being mired too much in Saturnine's liberal helpings of action.

@ Indefrafable
Yup, so some of my questions or issues with Saturnine are probably answered by the prior two books. I definitely lack that context. I did start the prior two books but gave up as I didn't enjoy the writing. This was more true of The First Wall. Just not my cup of tea. I ended up reading online spoilers but spoilers can't capture a full two novels' worth of material.

Spoiler

Edited by b1soul, 06 April 2020 - 03:07 AM.


#753
Lord Lorne Walkier

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Rohr's point is that

 

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edit: repeated word

 

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This is actually a really good take!

 

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#754
Roomsky

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@ Roomsky
Apart from Krole, could you please eleborate? Would like to hear your take, as mine is far from the gold standard.

 

Spoiler

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#755
b1soul

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#756
DukeLeto69

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Possibly/probably better to post this in the “...canonicity...” thread but why do some folks get SO upset when new things are added or changes made to previous lore descriptions?

Why is a piece of lore written 20-30 yrs ago (eg William King’s SoT piece) inviolable?

The cannon evolves as the story evolves. Often because the writers (through story group conferences) realise that some of the old lore actually MADE NO SENSE! The HH lore in the Collected Visions is a right royal mess (sorry Alan Merrett).

The major story/plot decisions each author involved in the SoT books writes into their respective novel will have been agreed by the story group (all six authors + editors + GW IP guys). The authors have been clear on that and how they are all sharing ideas.

When the HH novel series and Forgeworld Black Books are finished then THAT will be the cannon due to the sheer effort and person hours put in to developing it.

So you might expect to see a knock on in lore sections in some Codexes in future.

Some folks might prefer the old lore but sadly for them they need to accept that the new lore is changing some aspects for whatever reason. So either go with the new canon lore or retreat to head canon as that is totally valid (for you) too!

Eg. For years we all thought the UMs just sat out the HH. But that lore evolved first with (card game) Collected Visions then further with novels and FW BB. The new lore has actually provided far more credible reasons for where they were.

Edited by DukeLeto69, 06 April 2020 - 07:28 AM.

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#757
b1soul

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As a general rule, I only get annoyed when the old fluff is replaced by something I personally dislike. If the old fluff is being replaced by something better, I am all for it
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#758
Enosh

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Possibly/probably better to post this in the “...canonicity...” thread but why do some folks get SO upset when new things are added or changes made to previous lore descriptions?

Why is a piece of lore written 20-30 yrs ago (eg William King’s SoT piece) inviolable?

because it's good, people don't complain that Sherlock probably isn't canon anymore or that a half eldar isn't the ultramarine librarian, people will complain about something good, something emotional, something that connected with them being replaced with "actually X did it, isn't that a twist, didn't we subvert your exactions! Gosh we are just so clever"

 

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#759
nagashnee

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Because if they can change lore at the drop of a hat it makes the lore worthless. It sometimes makes whole books, and stories and entire painted armies worthless. It makes the desire to invest in actual new lore meaningless because it is in itself meaningless.

Small changes to fix actual issues are fine. But for example having Sanguinius defeat his ultimate demonic nemesis years before their utterly ICONIC showdown during the siege of terra is not only change for the sake of change, but activly underwhelmes dozens of other stories, characters, moments in the wider BA lore.

Simple fact is the moment that lazy retconing becomes the norm there is no longer lore to speak of.
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#760
b1soul

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#761
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#762
mc warhammer

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i don't really see it. they fulfilled completely different roles

they just both happen to be female.
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'WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?’

 

#763
b1soul

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#764
DarkChaplain

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I don't think he's really wrong in principle

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#765
talos402000

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Spoiler

Your actually Dan under a pseudonym, aren't you?
 


The Lion strode through the Halls of Hell;
Across his path grim shadows fell
Of many a howling, nameless shape
Daemons with dripping jaws agape.
The darkness shuddered with scream and yell
When the Lion stalked through the Halls of Hell.

 

 


#766
Scammel

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Because if they can change lore at the drop of a hat it makes the lore worthless. It sometimes makes whole books, and stories and entire painted armies worthless. It makes the desire to invest in actual new lore meaningless because it is in itself meaningless.

 

Hm, I don't think I can honestly recommend this book then. It's fantastic - there's wonderful character moments, great dialogue, and scenes of both glorious and tender humanity... but there are potentially some lore contradictions, so it sounds like it could be worthless.


Edited by Scammel, 09 April 2020 - 07:00 AM.


#767
bluntblade

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Because if they can change lore at the drop of a hat it makes the lore worthless. It sometimes makes whole books, and stories and entire painted armies worthless. It makes the desire to invest in actual new lore meaningless because it is in itself meaningless.


Hm, I don't think I can honestly recommend this book then. It's fantastic - there's wonderful character moments, great dialogue, and scenes of both glorious and tender humanity... but there are potentially some lore contradictions, so it sounds like it could be worthless.

I can't tell if this is sincere or god-tier deadpan.
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#768
b1soul

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#769
b1soul

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#770
mc warhammer

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idk if they have 2 dads, but they got 4 uncles


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'WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?’

 

#771
DarkChaplain

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Spoiler

Edited by DarkChaplain, 09 April 2020 - 08:48 AM.

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#772
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#773
mc warhammer

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Spoiler


good points, but my cynical brain says that the adb waifu effect would still be rampant in fandom

but now you have me waiting for the novella on larraman and his wonderful organ

'WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?’

 

#774
Marshal Rohr

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Spoiler

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#775
mc warhammer

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it also shows how much they all hook into the emperor's personality cult that they even want to attribute paternal titles to themselves and each other in the way he bestowed one on himself

wolf and animal dna was also potentially used, warp juice from each of the big 4...the only reason they don't claim the same titles is that they can't. though a part of my brain thinks chaos has tried to in some fashion?

there can also be nuances to those titles. you can be called "the father of modern science" without actually thinking you the baby daddy. it's semantic

Edited by mc warhammer, 09 April 2020 - 10:05 AM.

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'WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?’

 




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