Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[SkimaskMohawk]

I just finished it and I like it a lot. But get ready for this hot take: solar war is still yet to be topped.

[Fire Golem]

I just finished it and I like it a lot. But get ready for this hot take: solar war is still yet to be topped.

It’s very very close for me. I think this just topped Solar War, but I’m not sure if that’s just recency bias. 

[Marshal Vespasian]

Still cant even see it on audible in germany. Apparently on audible.co.uk it can be preordered for 11th of july, so tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to get it then. Got a long train ride ahead of me.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

I just finished it and I like it a lot. But get ready for this hot take: solar war is still yet to be topped.

It’s very very close for me. I think this just topped Solar War, but I’m not sure if that’s just recency bias.

Oh I'm biased too, but my bias is towards consistency. French is responsible for a large amount of characters during the siege and chunk of books that directly preceded the start of the siege, so I find myself using his takes as the "standard" . It also dont help that abnett's transhumans chat a lot and have the same vocabulary as mortals. I know they've been stuck together in a crazy oppressive warzone for a few months, but hearing a mortal, dorn and then abbadon call someone a bastard is weird; the transhumans feel too human.

 

And I'll repeat myself from the spoilers a few months ago about krole: her last scene is really lame. It's a really dumb way to handle her, even more after reading the book.

 

But still, I'd give this book an 8.5 or so. I really liked it.

[DarkChaplain]

Still cant even see it on audible in germany. Apparently on audible.co.uk it can be preordered for 11th of july, so tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to get it then. Got a long train ride ahead of me.

 

Audible Germany rarely, if ever, adds international (read: non-German) audiobooks until they release. It's been a bugbear of mine that I've told Audible in surveys etc numerous times. It'll be up around 10am our time, whenever Audible's release list updates over here.

[Marshal Rohr]

This is the perfect novel. The holy grail of 40k novels.

[nagashnee]

This is the perfect novel. The holy grail of 40k novels.

Only if you ignore every number in the book. Its outline of troops numerics is a bad bad joke. How they got past editing i will never understand. If this is perfection BL books live in a poor creation.

[Lucerne]

Lost and the damned was the nadir of badly portrayed future warfare- so an attempted breach gone wrong in saturnine honestly isn't as offensively botched as the portrayals in there that felt smaller scale than literal medieval warfare.

[StrangerOrders]

I deeply disliked Solar War primarily because it is far inferior to French's other works, including Praetorian of Dorn.

 

Wasn't aware having dissenting opinions translated to having not read the work or having it be somehow wrong. 

 

Granted, Saturnine is the first Siege book I genuinely loved but I have posted at length on the subject both on this very thread and a number of others on here so it feels like repition after a bit.

 

By my token, how 'realistic' a space siege between demigods is pretty secondary to how well the author can convince you of it.

 

Case in point, Abnett and Haley basically do the exact same battle with the White Scars here and in LatD. With this case being the one that I found to have both a much more coherent grasp of medieval cavalry tactics and cool notions as to how they could be adapted to the rules of 30k (because if you obsess over the exact details, the Scars pretty quickly become nonsensical and you will quickly stop making friends).

 

The numbers are iffy but I dont exactly see how its the writer's job to have a degree on every subject they need to touch on and worrying too much about it is a quick and easy way to cripple your writing speed. There are outliers like 'the Expanse'... but even then I would have to say the smell test passes because the folks that educated in the subjects that series touches on tend to be considerably less gifted in regards to the social sciences than they think they are.

 

On a sidenote, now that the book is out for everyone, has anyone finished the audiobook that already read the book? I am starting it soon and I would like a preview to how much the performances hold up, since sometimes a series I rather liked can be soured in the performance (see Nightlord trilogy) and I'd rather save myself the hassle if the performance doesnt compare. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

@stranger orders, I gotta disagree that solar war was the worst of France's work. It's the successful culmination of 4 of his novels and shorts; by its nature it can't be as focussed as the rest of them and I can see readers being dissapointed when comparing it to say Praetorian or Slaves. But his objectively worst book or a bad book in general? I don't think so.

 

Saturnine has the best human characters, hands down. But abnett's transhumans are not, and the lack of external consistency is jarring when they're a large focus of the book.

[DarkChaplain]

It definitely can't be his worst so long as Tallarn: Ironclad exists...

 

Picked up the audiobook and hope to dig in over the coming days. Still wrapping up some other reads first. I, too, dread the Keeble Primarchs, though. He's not even consistent between books, with the same characters =/

[Indefragable]

Have the audiobook via Audible. Shows it as being 16h 48m. Does that jive with other folks’ audio versions? I know there’s been goofs in the past.
 

 

Finishing up some stuff then will dive in. 

[DarkChaplain]

The time should be on point and matches what BL themselves list!

 

 

By the by, I certainly didn't expect Abnett to cite Cyrano de Bergerac for the epigraphs, albeit with adjustments.

[godking]

Just finished it it 10/10

 

I liked Keelers interviews with the prisoners  (Burtok)

 

I liked the depiction of Perturabo

 

Erda's  insight about the Emperor

 

Mortarion truly is the the dumbest and most ignorant of the Primarchs spending an eternity being something he hates  is a well deserved fate Ahriman was correct in his assesment of him.

[ninja6fett]

With all the talk about Abnett not doing enough with low numbers, particularly the end... I thought for some reason in Heresy a marine company was more than 100 marines, more like 1000... So the trap would have have eliminated about 3000 of the finest marines available to Horus.... plus 18k EC. And it only took like 1500 ish of the defender's to do it.

 

EDIT: Re-reading Know No Fear. Yup, in the Ultramarines at least, a company is 1,000 marines, not 100. Paperback version, pg 40.

Edited July 14, 2020 by ninja6fett

[StrangerOrders]

With all the talk about Abnett not doing enough with low numbers, particularly the end... I thought for some reason in Heresy a marine company was more than 100 marines, more like 1000... So the trap would have have eliminated about 3000 of the finest marines available to Horus.... plus 18k EC. And it only took like 1500 ish of the defender's to do it.

 

EDIT: Re-reading Know No Fear. Yup, in the Ultramarines at least, a company is 1,000 marines, not 100. Paperback version, pg 40.

If it is useful to know, the Luna Wolves just didnt really have a number for what a Company was.

 

Horus was a bit too fixated on control and the Luna Wolves were always a touch too tribalistic for 'company' to be a fixed term. Basically they called every formation under a commander a company and while titles were somewhat used the only real command rank was Captain.

 

The Black Books mention that there was some meaning to your number, but the Luna Wolves just had a mess of companies with no fixed numbers or even that much of a hierarchy. 

 

The companies discussed are some of the most favored and veteran however, so I'd bet on them being on a the very large side of the definition. 

 

Although I'd argue that the more important victory there was basically 

Ripping out the XVI's entire braintrust in one single swoop. Leaving only Angst-addon and the Un-relevant to man the helm for the Warpotato

.

 

EDIT:

Although successfully irking the IIIrd into rage-quitting the Heresy wasn't anything to sneeze at either (although I'd personally argue that the IIIrd were pretty much in the right to be a bit irked with the situation). Although I'd wager a fair number of them consider the events surrounding Eidolon to be at least a good portion of recompense for the trouble. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Morovir]

In Betrayal, it explicitly states that the Sons of Horus had no fixed company size, with companies as small as 36 or as large as 972 recorded.

 

More importantly with regards to the Sons of Horus command structure,

 

How many named Sons of Horus captains do we have left after the wipeout? Aside from the two counted above (Abaddon and Argonis), I can literally only remember Jerrod (13th Company, Luc Sedirae's successor) and Yade Durso (second captain of 5th Company, suspiciously replaced with another character in Saturnine and so might be dead by this point).

I suppose Lev Goshen could theoretically be recovered if a later author wants to.

[bluntblade]

Marr? McNeil did go about killing off Abnett's supporting cast with ample enthusiasm and very few replacements.

[Fire Golem]

Marr? McNeil did go about killing off Abnett's supporting cast with ample enthusiasm and very few replacements.

Marr was one of the ones who got got in Saturnine, IIRC.

[RedDragon]

I'm unsure how to spoiler.

 

But Camba Diaz quickly became one of my favourite characters in the Heresy during this book.

[Morovir]

 

Marr? McNeil did go about killing off Abnett's supporting cast with ample enthusiasm and very few replacements.

Marr was one of the ones who got got in Saturnine, IIRC.

 

 

Yup, Marr was the first to be wiped from the face of Terra. Quite disappointing after all of his buildup with the Shattered Legions to be killed off as an aside.

[Tymell]

In Betrayal, it explicitly states that the Sons of Horus had no fixed company size, with companies as small as 36 or as large as 972 recorded.

 

More importantly with regards to the Sons of Horus command structure,

 

How many named Sons of Horus captains do we have left after the wipeout? Aside from the two counted above (Abaddon and Argonis), I can literally only remember Jerrod (13th Company, Luc Sedirae's successor) and Yade Durso (second captain of 5th Company, suspiciously replaced with another character in Saturnine and so might be dead by this point).

 

I suppose Lev Goshen could theoretically be recovered if a later author wants to.

 

I believe this is a full list of named captains/centurions/commanders/chieftains/etc, including knights-errant/loyalists:

 

LIVING (as far as we know):

Ezekyle Abaddon - 1st captain, last seen badly injured on Terra

Garviel Loken - former 10th company captain, last seen within the Imperial Palace

Jerrod - 13th company captain, mentioned in Little Horus

Boros Kurn - 16th independent assault battalion commander, last seen en route to Prospero, pre-Heresy

Galkusa Rheor - 21st company captain, last seen at Gar-Ban-Gar, pre-Heresy

Lev Goshen - 25th company captain, last seen buried alive beneath the Imperial Palace

Lucial Vormar - 19th chapter captain, last seen during the Great Crusade, pre-Heresy

Kalus Ekaddon - captain, catulan reaver squad, last seen at the traitor Ullanor muster

Taloc Thorne - captain, tyrant of Port Maw, last seen at Port Maw

Hasdrubal Serapis - captain, last seen taken prisoner by Warsmith Dantioch

Tyran Mirr - assault captain, 45th company, unknown

Krushan - line-captain, last seen in the Solar System

Kinor Argonis - equerry to Horus, last seen at Terra

K'lathall - chieftain, 7th assault company, last seen at Manachea

Sidrik Nathmel - chieftain, unknown

Ygethddon - centurion, last seen with Task Force Ygethddon

Ocram Adraan - chieftain/veteran sergeant, 4th company, last seen departing Prospero, pre-Heresy

 

DEAD:

Iacton Qruze - slain by Horus aboard the Vengeful Spirit (Vengeful Spirit)

Lercon Hurn - 3rd company captain, presumably slain some time pre-Heresy (Horus Heresy I - Betrayal)

Maloghurst - perished attempting to save Horus before the traitor Ullanor muster (Slaves to Darkness)

Hastur Sejanus - slain by the false imperium pre-Heresy (Horus Rising)

Horus Aximand - slain by Loken during the Siege (Saturnine)

Serghar Targost - slain by Rama Karayan aboard the Vengeful Spirit (Vengeful Spirit)

Luc Sedirae - slain by Eristede Kell on Dagonet (Nemesis)

Tybalt Marr - slain by Loken during the Siege (Saturnine)

Verulam Moy - slain by Eugen Temba on Davin's moon (False Gods)

Falkus Kibre - slain by Garro during the Siege (Saturnine)

Raxhal Koraddon - slain by Endryd Haar before his mission to Xana (Horus Heresy VI - Retribution)

Urran Gauk - slain by a Blood Angels Paladin during the Siege (Saturnine)

Serac Lukash - slain by loyalists during the Siege (Saturnine)

Xan Ekosa - slain by loyalists during the Siege (Saturnine)

DeRall - slain by Orontis during the Siege (Saturnine)

Khalek - slain by Iron Warriors aboard the Iron Blood (Slaves to Darkness)

Tarik Torgaddon - slain by Aximan on Isstvan III (Galaxy in Flames)

Vosto Kurnan - uncertain, but likely slain by shattered legion forces aboard the Son of Victory (Sons of the Forge)

Edited July 14, 2020 by Tymell

[Morovir]

Of the ones you list as alive:

 

Lercon Hurn and Lucial Vormar can be assumed dead, as they have been replaced by Iacton Qruze and Verulam Moy as of Horus Rising.

 

Given his current status, it is unlikely that we will ever see Hasdrubal Serapis again.

 

It is heavily implied that Kalus Ekaddon was killed by Argonis at the end of Slaves to Darkness for his role in Maloghurst's machinations, seeing as after their duel, Argonis is seen again, yet Ekaddon is not, and there is a new captain of the Catulan Reavers by the time of Saturnine.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Morovir

[Tymell]

Of the ones you list as alive:

 

Lercon Hurn and Lucial Vormar can be assumed dead, as they have been replaced by Iacton Qruze and Verulam Moy as of Horus Rising.

 

Given his current status, it is unlikely that we will ever see Hasdrubal Serapis again.

 

It is heavily implied that Kalus Ekaddon was killed by Argonis at the end of Slaves to Darkness for his role in Maloghurst's machinations, seeing as after their duel, Argonis is seen again, yet Ekaddon is not, and there is a new captain of the Catulan Reavers by the time of Saturnine.

 

Good catch with Qruze, I missed that one. Moy is captain of the 19th company, but Vormar commands the 19th chapter, so not necessarily the same position (unless there's something somewhere stating that the 16th doesn't utilise chapters or some such).

 

I agree re: Serapis, but he's still not been confirmed as dead.

 

Ekaddon I'm in two minds about. I agree that it's likely he was killed, but it isn't definitively stated, or even firmly hinted at beyond them getting ready to duel. Do you know if it's stated anywhere whether the Catulan Reavers have a single captain or multiples? If it's just one, I'd be more inclined to take DeRall's existence as solid indication of Ekaddon's death.

[DarkChaplain]

I'd honestly consider Company and Chapter the same thing in the Sons of Horus'/Luna Wolves' case. I don't think the subject of them having Chapters has ever really cropped up, so it seems more like an oversight by some author. The Word Bearers had Chapters, and the Ultramarines did, but in the latter's case, organization was still different from other Legions, as far as I recall, with Chapters containing a number of Companies - and I don't see the same being the case for Horus, where the Mournival alone was traditionally drawn from Company Captains and we've never heard of them standing below a Chapter Master/Captain.

 

As for Serapis, I think it'd be easier to list him as dead with the remark that he hasn't been explicitly shown or said to die. However, seeing that his capture happened relatively "early" into the war, I don't see him still rotting in some Ultramarine prison. There's a chance he'll pop up if they ever deal with Sevatar's stay in Ultramar, or wherever he is now, but for the narrative as it stands he's pretty much dead unless an author wants to use a loophole to bring him back.

 

Similar goes for Ekaddon, where the build up to the climax makes it pretty apparent what the author's intention was for him and Argonis. Had French wanted to keep him alive, because Argonis allowed him to, that'd have happened in the book before the final page. While the duel was left open-ended, I don't consider the result, as written, to be up for debate at this point. There is the possibility of some author pulling another "Loken actually survived"-type loophole to retcon him back, but it seems extremely unlikely (and dumb) within context.