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Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett


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#901
karden00

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Any idea when this book will come available? Ebook or otherwise?


'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene.
You can always ally the Dark Angels to your current ultramarine force.
Never.
My Ultramarines aren't taking the field with traitors.
That's what Dark Vengeance is. A box of traitors.

 

"Now I have a plasma cannon. LOGISTICS LOGISTICS LOGISTICS."


#902
Moonreaper666

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The numbers thrown around in Saturnine are relatively tame... clashes between thousands as opposed to hundreds of thousands or millions IIRC


I wonder why? Can someone ask Dan Abnett?

There are still many novels and short stories to read through so I doubt either side is running low on manpower or Marines

#903
matcap86

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Wow just finished the book in the dead of night, couldn't put it down. This might be my favorite HH Book yet. Loved it.
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#904
Lucerne

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Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.
My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Spoiler

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

Spoiler


"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 


#905
Sviox

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Any idea when this book will come available? Ebook or otherwise?


July 21. According to Amazon.

#906
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Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.
My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Spoiler

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.
Spoiler

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

#907
Petitioner's City

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Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.
My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Spoiler

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.
Spoiler

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

 

 

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere. 


Cinema itself is a trick of time — still pictures passed through a focused beam of light at 24 frames per second. We are reminded of that in La Jetée...

#908
Moonreaper666

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Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.
My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Spoiler

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.
Spoiler
Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere.

It is much easier for the Legions to mass-produce geneseed in the Heresy and make new Marines in bulk. Most of the Legions have lost over 150k Marines each during the Heresy

Not all of the Marines of the Legions that participated at Terra were there. A few IF Marines are in Inwit and Necromunda. Few Marines in the Legions' Homeworlds.

Present day Loyalist Chapters have to deal with Post-Heresy redtape when it comes to making new geneseed as the Imperium deduced that impure geneseed leads to Chaos corruption. Traitor warbands have their own problems making or stealing new geneseed

#909
Lord_Caerolion

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Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.
My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Spoiler

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.
Spoiler
Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere.

It is much easier for the Legions to mass-produce geneseed in the Heresy and make new Marines in bulk. Most of the Legions have lost over 150k Marines each during the Heresy

Not all of the Marines of the Legions that participated at Terra were there. A few IF Marines are in Inwit and Necromunda. Few Marines in the Legions' Homeworlds.

Present day Loyalist Chapters have to deal with Post-Heresy redtape when it comes to making new geneseed as the Imperium deduced that impure geneseed leads to Chaos corruption. Traitor warbands have their own problems making or stealing new geneseed

 

 

Yes, but they're also in a war the likes of which the Imperium has literally never seen before, with all of the strains on supply lines that come with that. Sure, there's no oversight, but that's not the issue here. The Emperors Children are already incredibly fragmented as a Legion, just waiting for Skalathrax to break them utterly.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#910
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Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.
My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Spoiler

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.
Spoiler
Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?
Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere.
It is much easier for the Legions to mass-produce geneseed in the Heresy and make new Marines in bulk. Most of the Legions have lost over 150k Marines each during the Heresy

Not all of the Marines of the Legions that participated at Terra were there. A few IF Marines are in Inwit and Necromunda. Few Marines in the Legions' Homeworlds.

Present day Loyalist Chapters have to deal with Post-Heresy redtape when it comes to making new geneseed as the Imperium deduced that impure geneseed leads to Chaos corruption. Traitor warbands have their own problems making or stealing new geneseed

Yes, but they're also in a war the likes of which the Imperium has literally never seen before, with all of the strains on supply lines that come with that. Sure, there's no oversight, but that's not the issue here. The Emperors Children are already incredibly fragmented as a Legion, just waiting for Skalathrax to break them utterly.

By M42, the Emperor's Children are much larger than during the Heresy. Same with the Death Guard and Black Legion

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have Heresy numbers but have billions of normal soldiers under their command

#911
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10K years vs 7 years in Total war conditions. Not sure why it's brought up if there's numbers presented in Saturnine?
The First Wall already made reference to the Emperor's Children abductions, from the old lore/template for the current, we know they focus less on the siege and more on the rest of the populus, so their numbers become less relevant and I and probably many others who know this, are expecting to see this being played out. Almost like Horus Heresy Bingo.

Also, isn't there a chapter in Solar War from a fresh recruit's perspective then other comments in other novels regarding their lack of experience in comparison to veterans so the death rate is higher.

Thanks for the info on release date Sviox.
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#912
Carach

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there were millions on the eastern front in ww2. Far more than ever arrived on the western front. The troop density was less than that of the western front (generally), however, because of the vast spaces. 

 

We are talking about a continent-sized palace under siege, let alone an entire planet with military assets spread about it. *Millions* can't really fit into the eye or into a building. 

 

Whilst I haven't read this book yet, I imagine Dan 'tones back' the numbers to make things a little more realistic. Otherwise you're going to run into problems with troops being everywhere at once and 'teleporting' - and we don't want this to be the last season of Game of Thrones, do we?


Edited by Carach, 22 June 2020 - 10:23 PM.

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#913
Lord_Caerolion

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By M42, the Emperor's Children are much larger than during the Heresy. Same with the Death Guard and Black Legion

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have Heresy numbers but have billions of normal soldiers under their command

 

 

Source regarding the Emperors Children numbers? Plus, we're not arguing about the size of the Legions in M42, but at the Siege of Terra. The replenishment rate can't be that large, given the Salamanders didn't really take part in the Heresy after their near-annihilation at Istvaan, and yet were only able to create 3 Chapters or so during the Second Founding.

 

EDIT: And yes, some Legions have recruited far larger numbers, but those are mostly the Legions which have been noted as having a quicker implantation process, like the Iron Warriors and World Eaters. The Emperors Children, with all their geneseed issues, are not what you would really include in that group. So, we've got a Legion that after Istvaan began a descent into total corruption, a process that was increased dramatically after Fulgrims ascension, which has largely broken down any semblance of military order or organization in favour of their own hedonism. 

 

I don't exactly trust that the Emperors Children are capable of maintaining large-scale implantation and development. Sure, they've got Fabius, but he's just one guy. 

 

And lastly, as an aside, of course the Black Legion are larger than during the Heresy, because the Black Legion didn't exist then. They're not the Sons of Horus with a different name. The Sons died in the Legion Wars, some of the refugees joined the Black Legion, but so did members of the other Legions. 


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 22 June 2020 - 10:53 PM.

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"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#914
Petitioner's City

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I do wish the fines folks at the 40k Wikia and lexicanum would seperate the SoH article from the BL article; having them be the same continues people's mistake of equating the two.
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Cinema itself is a trick of time — still pictures passed through a focused beam of light at 24 frames per second. We are reminded of that in La Jetée...

#915
DarkChaplain

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That infuriates me every time as well, yeah. It's been established for so goddamn long that they're not simply renamed SoH, but Lexicanum especially doesn't seem to bother with actual edits anymore. Seems to me like articles that used to exist, especially for books, got watered down or nuked as well. And Lexicanum hasn't had claim to many competent editors for a long time....


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#916
Moonreaper666

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there were millions on the eastern front in ww2. Far more than ever arrived on the western front. The troop density was less than that of the western front (generally), however, because of the vast spaces.

We are talking about a continent-sized palace under siege, let alone an entire planet with military assets spread about it. *Millions* can't really fit into the eye or into a building.

Whilst I haven't read this book yet, I imagine Dan 'tones back' the numbers to make things a little more realistic. Otherwise you're going to run into problems with troops being everywhere at once and 'teleporting' - and we don't want this to be the last season of Game of Thrones, do we?


But the Imperial Palace is huge, surely it can hold a few billion soldiers in it!

Trillions should be fighting all over Terra

#917
b1soul

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Horus' geneseed is probably the rarest in M41...though it leads the BL

#918
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Horus' geneseed is probably the rarest in M41...though it leads the BL

 

Don't worry, that necron dude who collects everything probably has a ton out back, like that time he traded Fabious for EC geneseed. teehee.gif


gallery_154982_15362_23624.jpg

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#919
Lucerne

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Horus' geneseed is probably the rarest in M41...though it leads the BL

I mean, all those leftover SoH during the Legion Wars were likely harvested at some point. Rarest is likely the cult Legions- so Emperor's Children in between Bile's infusions, Thousand Sons, World Eaters...


Edited by Lucerne, 24 June 2020 - 05:13 AM.

"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 


#920
karden00

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By M42, the Emperor's Children are much larger than during the Heresy. Same with the Death Guard and Black Legion

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have Heresy numbers but have billions of normal soldiers under their command

 

 

Source regarding the Emperors Children numbers? Plus, we're not arguing about the size of the Legions in M42, but at the Siege of Terra. The replenishment rate can't be that large, given the Salamanders didn't really take part in the Heresy after their near-annihilation at Istvaan, and yet were only able to create 3 Chapters or so during the Second Founding.

 

EDIT: And yes, some Legions have recruited far larger numbers, but those are mostly the Legions which have been noted as having a quicker implantation process, like the Iron Warriors and World Eaters. The Emperors Children, with all their geneseed issues, are not what you would really include in that group. So, we've got a Legion that after Istvaan began a descent into total corruption, a process that was increased dramatically after Fulgrims ascension, which has largely broken down any semblance of military order or organization in favour of their own hedonism. 

 

I don't exactly trust that the Emperors Children are capable of maintaining large-scale implantation and development. Sure, they've got Fabius, but he's just one guy. 

 

And lastly, as an aside, of course the Black Legion are larger than during the Heresy, because the Black Legion didn't exist then. They're not the Sons of Horus with a different name. The Sons died in the Legion Wars, some of the refugees joined the Black Legion, but so did members of the other Legions. 

 

It really makes you wonder, just how important to the recruitment were the fortress monasteries on the Astartes' homeworlds. Certainly Ultramar benefited greatly from the stability of both the geneseed and Ultramar/Macragge as well. But presumably, this applied to every legion's homeoworld. Fully knowing that the continuity of BL isn't always what we would love it to be, The Devastation of Baal tells us that the Monastery at Baal was of epic proportions, such that the modern successors were not enough to match the numbers of the legion of old. I have to think that the extention of that fact is that the Fortress Monastery is vital to the production of Astartes? I am very cool with the fact that Astartes made 'on the go' suffer somewhat because of this, but I still would have enjoyed an in universe lament of just how much better the legions could replenish themselves had they had their stable recruiting base. Maybe this happened with the IIIrd in Pathway of Heaven? Idk. 


'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene.
You can always ally the Dark Angels to your current ultramarine force.
Never.
My Ultramarines aren't taking the field with traitors.
That's what Dark Vengeance is. A box of traitors.

 

"Now I have a plasma cannon. LOGISTICS LOGISTICS LOGISTICS."


#921
Indefragable

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By M42, the Emperor's Children are much larger than during the Heresy. Same with the Death Guard and Black Legion

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have Heresy numbers but have billions of normal soldiers under their command

 

 

Source regarding the Emperors Children numbers? Plus, we're not arguing about the size of the Legions in M42, but at the Siege of Terra. The replenishment rate can't be that large, given the Salamanders didn't really take part in the Heresy after their near-annihilation at Istvaan, and yet were only able to create 3 Chapters or so during the Second Founding.

 

EDIT: And yes, some Legions have recruited far larger numbers, but those are mostly the Legions which have been noted as having a quicker implantation process, like the Iron Warriors and World Eaters. The Emperors Children, with all their geneseed issues, are not what you would really include in that group. So, we've got a Legion that after Istvaan began a descent into total corruption, a process that was increased dramatically after Fulgrims ascension, which has largely broken down any semblance of military order or organization in favour of their own hedonism. 

 

I don't exactly trust that the Emperors Children are capable of maintaining large-scale implantation and development. Sure, they've got Fabius, but he's just one guy. 

 

And lastly, as an aside, of course the Black Legion are larger than during the Heresy, because the Black Legion didn't exist then. They're not the Sons of Horus with a different name. The Sons died in the Legion Wars, some of the refugees joined the Black Legion, but so did members of the other Legions. 

 

It really makes you wonder, just how important to the recruitment were the fortress monasteries on the Astartes' homeworlds. Certainly Ultramar benefited greatly from the stability of both the geneseed and Ultramar/Macragge as well. But presumably, this applied to every legion's homeoworld. Fully knowing that the continuity of BL isn't always what we would love it to be, The Devastation of Baal tells us that the Monastery at Baal was of epic proportions, such that the modern successors were not enough to match the numbers of the legion of old. I have to think that the extention of that fact is that the Fortress Monastery is vital to the production of Astartes? I am very cool with the fact that Astartes made 'on the go' suffer somewhat because of this, but I still would have enjoyed an in universe lament of just how much better the legions could replenish themselves had they had their stable recruiting base. Maybe this happened with the IIIrd in Pathway of Heaven? Idk. 

 

 

It's a good point @karden00.

 

I would say that if we assume technologically speaking Astartes can be produced almost anywhere the facilities exist, then there would still be a certain efficiency and camaraderie that comes from being made on the homeworld. I'm thinking Rocky IV with Rocky out climbing mountains and lifting rocks and Drago is in a lab hooked up to machines on treadmills: is one better than the other? No....but when you are trying to crank out tens and hundreds and thousands of Dragos, yea, the lab setup (Fortress Monastery) is probably best suited for that. 

 

I see it as a strategic benefit, but not necessarily a tactical one: "shake n' bake" Astartes can be just as good as, if not better than, "slow cooker" Astartes from the Monastery, but from a Chapter or Legion's perspective its just far more efficient to crank 'em out at the FM whenever possible. 


Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

gallery_93095_13980_27776.jpgETL_VI_Banner_Primus_Interpares_Astartes





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