Happy-inquisitor Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just because I a follow Warhammer World on Facebook I happened to notice that there was a fairly ridiculous dominance of the GT Heat 4 by the Sons of Dorn - 4 out of the top 5 places were Imperial Fists (the other was mixed Adeptus Astartes). https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75282236_2869294923089969_1854884452589633536_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQmaF-aD42JCttgen3CQ9RfBASGbXDCGHuHg_Xk2pgKB6JMypLhtbBAHAgafF6hpjas&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=a6d594c8cc0428b71ca34ebb51fd2343&oe=5E55A950 I don't know how many of the design team were actually there to see quite why the results were so extreme (I heard Jess Goodwin was there) but in any case I suspect word will get back to them what it was that caused such a strong result. I wonder if that will show up in the supplement FAQ. Anyone else playing tournaments now that the supplement is allowed - are we seeing these sorts of results all over or was that a one-off at GW home base? N1SB 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1SB Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 This is fascinating. Everyone talks about Iron Hands, for obvious reasons, and my local meta favours Salamanders, but these are great data points. I'd like to learn more, if there's more information on this, please do share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Any idea what these lists included? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 Any idea what these lists included? Only way to find out would be a report from someone who was there. GW do not publish the lists for their events. I wanted to be there but was *way* too slow on picking up tickets which sold out really quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrick Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 my guess is lots of stalker intercessors, whirldwinds and eliminators and ........wait for it .......6-12 bolter centurions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) I’ve seen a couple of the lists on the Competitive 40k facebook page. Neither contained Heavy Bolter centurions. Both were pasted in as images so I’ve hastily written them in. Apologies for any mistakes. The first place list was: Battalion Primaris Chapter Master with power fist and plasma pistol Primaris chaplain 4x5 intercessors with stalker rifles 4 assault centurions 3x1 tarantulas 3 Contemtor Mortis dreads with quad heavy bolters, 2 with cyclones. Spearhead Librarian 3x3 Eliminators 1 TFC And the Crimson Fists in 4th (which I think went 4:1) had: Battalion Smash captain with power fist Terminator captain with storm shield (warlord) 3x5 stalker intercessors 7 scouts Vanguard Primaris Lieutenant 2x3 Aggressors Ancient Spearhead Pedro 2x Mortis Contemptor with quad las Storm Cannon Leviathan I’m not surprised to see these armies do well. That’s a serious amount of dakka. Both have a very respectable counter-punch in melee as well. The top list has gone for a pretty uncompromising approach of taking as many heavy bolters as possible and I think it’s a better list overall. Notably, neither of these features planes or devastator centurions. I think this demonstrates the sheer variety of options available to Fists right now. Pretty much everything with a heavy weapon is good. Also, the guy who won said he found the list a bit boring to play, with and against. I can see that. He’s basically got an abominable amount of static firepower and wins by tabling his opponent, probably quite quickly, with lots of rolling and rerolling of dice. It’s not a particularly great game when you can just annihilate everyone. I’ve been on the fence about stalker intercessors. I think it’s clear now that they’re the right way to go. In a marine meta stalkers beat the other options, hands down, because they dominate enemy intercessors. Dakka is available elsewhere. Edited November 11, 2019 by Mandragola Happy-inquisitor 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Agreed on the Stalker Intercessor point. Seems my fears have been realized. Going to have to go way off meta to try and find some fun out of this Supplement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) Agreed on the Stalker Intercessor point. Seems my fears have been realized. Going to have to go way off meta to try and find some fun out of this Supplement. Annoying, isn’t it? I started playing Crimson Fists when 8th dropped and they have been a real challenge to play, up to now. Now they’re incredibly powerful and I’ll look like I’ve jumped on a bandwagon. I imagine we’ll get a nerf soon. I’m not sure what it’ll be. To be honest the super-doctrine (as with the IH one) is just too good, making us absurdly strong against vehicle-heavy armies. I see that marines are getting even more buffs in the new PA book. Chapter-specific litanies (which I agree will be cool) and strats for stuff like chief librarians and masters of sanctity. It looks like these will bolt on top of what we’ve already got, so it’s a straight buff for what’s already the strongest faction in 40k. It’s unfortunate because this release has been so cool in so many ways. The models are great and it’s awesome to have all the chapters be so distinct. But no army should be getting 4 out of the top 5 (and marines all 5) spots at a tournament. At Blood and Glory there was a seminar and someone asked how Iron Hands made it through playtesting. They defended their approach but admitted it was a mistake. The thing is, you at least need to vaguely think about how to build an IH army pre-nerf (not very much, but a bit). With Fists you sort of don’t – just take as many big guns as you can and you’re good. How did they miss this? To be fair, this is a new problem for me. Usually my meta-chasing tournament army gets smashed by the nerf bat. I’m not used to having a very average army get made into a monster. Edited November 11, 2019 by Mandragola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatBrannigan Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Exactly how I feel with my Guard :( Been playing them for years and they got a good codex with 8th so now I'm "that hut who plays Guard". Luckily I play Mordian who have the worst rules so that cheers me up a bit. Suspect we'll see a Nerf to those Mortis Contemptors at some point, maybe something in the FAQ as well? Not sure what to make worse though, the Fists rule really didn't look that great when they came out. I thought Seismic Devastation might go, that can be used on those HB Dreads can't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I think this tournament shows that before a meta evolves there will always be something when it’s brand new that will kick everyone’s teeth in for a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I think this tournament shows that before a meta evolves there will always be something when it’s brand new that will kick everyone’s teeth in for a few weeks.To be fair it’s one event and the people there look like great players. However, I’m not sure when I’ve ever seen a tournament where the whole top 5 is from the same Codex. I think that’s cause for concern. It’s not something that happens every time a book comes out while everyone adapts. It’s also kind of an unreasonable adaptation to expect from people. “Don’t play vehicles any more” is kind of a biggie - especially when combined with “don’t bother with hordes either”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I think this tournament shows that before a meta evolves there will always be something when it’s brand new that will kick everyone’s teeth in for a few weeks.To be fair it’s one event and the people there look like great players. However, I’m not sure when I’ve ever seen a tournament where the whole top 5 is from the same Codex. I think that’s cause for concern. It’s not something that happens every time a book comes out while everyone adapts. It’s also kind of an unreasonable adaptation to expect from people. “Don’t play vehicles any more” is kind of a biggie - especially when combined with “don’t bother with hordes either”. The thing about these Heat events is that the normally the later ones actually tend to have the weirder lists and less focused tournament players who either didn't qualify in the first 3 or weren't available for them. If you've qualified for the GT, you don't need to attend any of these heats again, so the later Heats usually get into the more eclectic and fun lists. This one just happened to occur right as the two new Supplements were available, so it probably attracted a ton of folks looking to playtest them in an actual event. As for your other post, I'm of the same mind - folks treating me like jumping on the bandwagon is a pain. If you look at my meager force, you can see I'm struggling through painting that yellow just like any true Son of Dorn, and I'm putting in the effort first and foremost for the hobby. The biggest issues I have with this release are the borderline broken Doctrine hiding a pretty wickedly unfocused and boring set of rules that really do not feel like a true siege army. Thankfully the mainline Codex and the new PA bring some tools I can experiment with to really make something fun and unique. I'd trade away that Doctrine any day if it brought something more dynamic and interesting to the table, but that ship has sailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I agree on the doctrine. It’s too powerful and doesn’t fit the siege thing at all. Fists are supposed to favour accuracy, not spraying and praying with autocannon and heavy bolters. I guess stalker bolt rifles being dangerous vaguely makes sense. In general though there just shouldn’t be leaf blower lists that stand still and table people. They are not good for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 I agree on the doctrine. It’s too powerful and doesn’t fit the siege thing at all. Fists are supposed to favour accuracy, not spraying and praying with autocannon and heavy bolters. I guess stalker bolt rifles being dangerous vaguely makes sense. In general though there just shouldn’t be leaf blower lists that stand still and table people. They are not good for the game. Against Tau tyranids and daemons our doctrine is useless. Every other doctrine is valid against any opponent so I don’t see it as broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 I’d argue that a doctrine that makes you table some people and does nothing against others is indeed broken. It turns the game into rock/paper/scissors. And it’s not really true to say that our doctrine doesn’t work against those armies. It still helps because the heavy dakka you take to activate the doctrine against vehicles happens to also be awesome for killing daemons, orks and so on. So you’re still benefiting, because the doctrine makes those units awesome against everything. Lemondish 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrick Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-focus-three-cool-lists-from-the-alliance-open/ Malik Amin RubioGaming Club: Dice DownTotal Points: 2000 ptsTotal Command Points: 9(3+5(Battalion)+1(Airwing)+1(Spearhead)-1(Siegebreaker Cohort))ITC Faction: Adeptus Astartes Battalion Detachment, 5CP, Imperial fists, Siegebreaker Cohort (-1CP Vigilus Detachment) [61PL, 987pts]HQ: Captain with Jump Pack (93), Chainsword x2 (0), Bolt Pistol (0) [6PL. 93pts] (Warlord) HQ: Captain (74), Chainsword x2 (0), Bolt Pistol (0), [5PL, 74pts] TR – 5x Scouts (55), Sergeant, 2xChainsword (0) 4xBolt Pistol(0), 4xCombat Knife 0) – [4PL, 55pts] TR – 5x Scouts (55), Sergeant, 2xChainsword (0) 4xBolt Pistol(0), 4xCombat Knife 0) – [4PL, 55pts] TR – 5x Scouts (55), Sergeant, 2xChainsword (0) 4xBolt Pistol(0), 4xCombat Knife 0) – [4PL, 55pts] Elite: 4x Servitors (4X5), 4x Servo Arms (0) [2PL, 20pts] Elite: Relic Whirlwind Scorpius (175), Scorpius Multi Launcher (40) [12PL, 215pts] HS: 6x Devastator Centurions (6×40), Sergeant, 12 Heavy Bolters (10×12), 6 Hurricane Bolters (6×10), – [24PL, 420pts] Spearhead Detachment, 1CP, Imperial Fists [25Pl, 536pts]HQ: Chaplain with Jump Pack (90), Boltgun (0), Crozius Arcanum (0), – [5PL, 90pts] HS: Thunderfire Cannon (55), Techmarine Gunner (26), Servo-harness, Flamer (6), Plasma Cutter (5) [4PL, 92pts] HS: Thunderfire Cannon (55), Techmarine Gunner (26), Servo-harness, Flamer (6), Plasma Cutter (5) [4PL, 92pts] HS: Thunderfire Cannon (55), Techmarine Gunner (26), Servo-harness, Flamer (6), Plasma Cutter (5) [4PL, 92pts] HS: Whirlwind (65), Whirlwind Vengeance launcher (20), [4PL, 85pts] HS: Whirlwind (65), Whirlwind Vengeance launcher (20), [4PL, 85pts] Airwing Detachment, 1CP, Imperial Fists [27PL, 477pts]Flyer: Stormhawk Interceptor (85), 2x Assault cannon (22×2), Icarus stormcannon (10), Skyhammer missile launcher (20) [9PL, 159pts] Flyer: Stormhawk Interceptor (85), 2x Assault cannon (22×2), Icarus stormcannon (10), Skyhammer missile launcher (20) [9PL, 159pts] Flyer: Stormhawk Interceptor (85), 2x Assault cannon (22×2), Icarus stormcannon (10), 2x Heavy Bolter (10×2) [9PL, 159pts] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) What a boring looking list, if I'm to be quite blunt. A few questionable choices included too. Artillery parking lot and a Centurion bomb seem pretty self explanatory, but the low Infantry count seems a liability and the Stormhawks have a bit of a weird loadout, imho Edited November 14, 2019 by Lemondish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 It’s basically a completely uncompromising leafblower list, which might now be our most powerful option. If games are decided by tabling people then you want every single gun you can take. I don’t see any bad units there. The stormhawks look about right. I have also been going backwards and forwards on heavy bolters vs skyhammer missiles. I think the missiles are best vs other people’s planes, and an awful lot of stuff flies. But yeah, it’s incredibly boring to play this way. 6 units that ignore LoS, for example, and those centurions. The firepower is just out of this world, so who cares about objectives? You can drive there in a whirlwind after everything is dead. Exilyth and Lemondish 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zustiur Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 What's with the two captains having dual swords? I'm confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesSaboteur Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 What's with the two captains having dual swords? I'm confused. I believe it is because each sword will provide a extra attack. Giving +3 Attacks on the charge in total with Angels of Death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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