The Old Wound Chart is Superior to what we have now:

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

Do we really need to have a rehash of the whole "I think X old mechanic is better than Y new mechanic" argument again? GW has said time and again, in various media, that the rules-as-written are just a foundation/framework for the game. If you like how things worked before, why not bring in the old mechanic into the new game? Talk with your gaming group and give the whole thing a tweak or two. Arguments on an internet forum with international reach aren't going to change anything about the game, but chats with your friends and favourite enemies can.

 

I personally still use older line of sight rules and pseudo-facings in my games.

 

As long as the 'you're stupid if you don't like AbStRaCtIoN' crowd rolls into every single thread when someone asks a question, the merry go round will spin. This is like the 4th Thread in a row where someone has talked about over-streamlining removing something, and get badgered with 'everything is fine, shut up'. 

 

 

That's definitely a two way street there Marshal

 

Personally I find that this wound table is the better interation of the 3 editions I've played. Sure lasguns can take out tanks but it makes for a much more exciting game where every shot/attack counts.

[Jukkiz]

Dunno what people whimper about realism all the time. Shoot your enemys models with nerf gun adn say those are all dead that got shot.

But for real, 30K/HH is weird, to some closer what they see as realism in rule side, to some new edition is just okay/good adn some feel like smaller part of the game could take its rules to full game. Sure, try houseruling to see what might work. Maybe you like it.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Dunno what people whimper about realism all the time. Shoot your enemys models with nerf gun adn say those are all dead that got shot.

 

But for real, 30K/HH is weird, to some closer what they see as realism in rule side, to some new edition is just okay/good adn some feel like smaller part of the game could take its rules to full game. Sure, try houseruling to see what might work. Maybe you like it.

Well we started off with very complex and realistic rules from the beginning and its gotten less complex than say in 2nd edition which was too complex but then suddenly in 8th its gone completely the other way, its extremely simple and if you collected the game when it was complex you'd probably have preferred it too.  The only reason the stripped down the rules was because of X-wing and the fact that it was competing with GW, so GW thought 'they have simple rules, we must do that too'.  No one wanted it, we wanted a shorter game, but no one thought the game was too complex to play.  The only real downside to it was all the rules you had to remember, which we all did remember you'd just forget to use or apply some of them.  I like 8th but its gone in the other direction to the extreme, they went way to far in simplifying it and just ignoring the cool and realistic dynamics they had before.  Like morale, to make it easy you'll just lose troops to it, which is so idiotic.

[toaae]

Moving on from the discussion of "everything can wound everything" for a minute, another point made was the difference the new wound chart has on heavier anti-infantry weapons. The example given was that the old system had a Heavy Bolter (S5) wound T3 on a 2+, while the new system has it wound it on a 3+, the same result as shooting against T4, or having the same result as a Bolter (S4) shooting against T3.

In regards to this, I just want to say that in a d6 system, we only have 5 options for what to roll (assuming a 1 will always be a failed roll). The decision on when to move from one number to the next lower (or higher) has significant impact. The new system went with a wider range of when 3+ and 5+ would be the target to-roll. So, now, while S5 doesn't differentiate T3 from T4 in regards to what it needs to roll, it does differentiate T3 and T2. It's arbitrary to decide when to move from one target to the other; personally, I like that the new system has 3+ and 5+ occur more often.

 

 

but then suddenly in 8th its gone completely the other way, its extremely simple and if you collected the game when it was complex you'd probably have preferred it too. 

I've been in the hobby since 2003, and I prefer 8th to the previous five editions. Hell, I wish armor facings and weapon arcs had remained, and yet I'd still rather play 8th than any other edition I've experienced. Anecdotally, everyone I know prefers 8th to previous editions.

[Ishagu]

It started as a narrative skirmish game with a third player GM, and gradually evolved into a larger scale tabletop wargame.

 

@Torvald

If you want to enjoy more detailed rules GW provide you with various rulesets from Kill-Team to Titanicus and everything in between that focus on specific types of warfare.

 

If you don't like the main line 40k rules which have evolved over a span of 20 years into what we have today; the most popualar and succeful miniatures wargame of all time, then I think you should play one of the specialist games that seem to fit what you're asking for.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ishagu

[Vykes]

Hmm, I dunno, of the 7 editions I've played, I prefer 8ths short hand methods a whole lot more than the others.  I wish the WS vs. WS of earlier editions worked the same way that the 8E S vs T chart worked.  

 

You ain't gonna hear me wanting D12 hit location charts and turn radius formulas back.  Needless complexity masquerading as realism ain't my fetish. 

[Berzul]

Not directly relating to the topic of toughness, but more to the topic of rules, I will agree with one thing.

 

Some simplifications are just weird to have.

 

In particular, morale.

 

The old leadership system, where a broken unit would start to run away, giving you a chance to try and regroup, made a TON more sense, and was also A LOT more fun to play. It was not complex, it was not hard to understand, it was not time consuming to implement, and it made the game feel A LOT more realistic.

 

Having a squad, on its own, deciding to just high-tail it out of combat, due to heavy losses, was amazing and aid in the immersion for both players.

Now what do we have?

 

A bunch of people getting so scared they commit suicide? Banish into another dimension? Get beamed up back to the mother ship? Or something else equally stupid.

 

Seriously, the ONE thing I absolutely feel GW dropped the ball with, is morale. The system in 8th simply sucks, in that regard.

[CaptainMarsh]

As someone who has played the game for a while, I disagree with the idea that "if you played/collected before you'd like the more complex system more" as proposed by Torvald. 

[Are Verlo]

Hmm, I dunno, of the 7 editions I've played, I prefer 8ths short hand methods a whole lot more than the others.  I wish the WS vs. WS of earlier editions worked the same way that the 8E S vs T chart worked.  

 

You ain't gonna hear me wanting D12 hit location charts and turn radius formulas back.  Needless complexity masquerading as realism ain't my fetish. 

 

And let us not forget the acc/dcc of vehicles. Combine those With turn radius for a good time...

 

Edit: sorry about the derail. Back to "to wound systems"

Edited November 14, 2019 by Are Verlo

[Vykes]

-points to Berzul- see, Moral is a really good example of one of those things 8E did that I'm not super good with.  Of course, I kinda wish there was more effects like pinning, shaken, stunned squads rather than just always running away.  Even if you wanted to say D6 mortal wounds on a unit that miserably fails a leadership test, that would be enough so long as it was combined with more than just 'remove models'.  I mean, I've been playing a lot of 30K recently and there's been some really weird 'fall back' results that I kinda wish were more nuanced. 

 

Oh man, Are Verlo, I was like 6 when I started playing with that system.... man, I remember that. Good times.  At least the models were pretty cheap back then.  

 

Sad thing is I wish we still had more stuff like defoliation grenades, flashbangs, etc.  

[Marshal Rohr]

Turn radius would be a pretty cool way to incentivize a cost analysis between wheeled, tracked, and anti-grav vehicles. Would be nice to actually have the varied IG vehicles come back instead of the ridiculously unrepresentative selection they have now with the datasheet crap. 

[Evil Eye]

I do think the loss of vehicle facings/limited weapon arcs is a bit of a shame but IMO at least, the streamlining in the 8th edition ruleset is a massive improvement. I think some people are forgetting just how bloated and complex 7th was. And if you do prefer 7th (nothing wrong with that) then hey, the books haven't magically expired, you can still play it with friends. I have a friend who plays 3rd edition WHFB after all, and I keep all my previous edition rulebooks/codices just in case.

 

Now, having a purely optional supplement for the core rules that would re-introduce more complex elements available would be cool, as options always are. But I don't think that 8th is somehow inferior for making the game less reliant on memorizing a billion USRs with similar names.

[TorvaldTheMild]

It started as a narrative skirmish game with a third player GM, and gradually evolved into a larger scale tabletop wargame.

 

@Torvald

If you want to enjoy more detailed rules GW provide you with various rulesets from Kill-Team to Titanicus and everything in between that focus on specific types of warfare.

 

If you don't like the main line 40k rules which have evolved over a span of 20 years into what we have today: the most popualr and succeful miniatures wargame of all time, then I think you should play one of the specialist games that seem to fit what you're asking for.

I'd advise you to understand that not everyone likes every single aspect of 40k or the game and not liking a certain aspect should not be met with childish dismissal like 'If you don't like it don't play' harumph.  I mean why get so worked up by someone that dislikes an aspect of a table top game.

Edited November 14, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Marshal Rohr]

I do think the loss of vehicle facings/limited weapon arcs is a bit of a shame but IMO at least, the streamlining in the 8th edition ruleset is a massive improvement. I think some people are forgetting just how bloated and complex 7th was. And if you do prefer 7th (nothing wrong with that) then hey, the books haven't magically expired, you can still play it with friends. I have a friend who plays 3rd edition WHFB after all, and I keep all my previous edition rulebooks/codices just in case.

 

Now, having a purely optional supplement for the core rules that would re-introduce more complex elements available would be cool, as options always are. But I don't think that 8th is somehow inferior for making the game less reliant on memorizing a billion USRs with similar names.

Exactly. 8th is fine. Add some extra rules. For other stuff for a deeper slice of the pie. You don’t need to worry about balance and points, just stick to power levels and asymmetric objectives. Would be a blast. They really tried to do this with open play but the US pick up game culture is so toxic no one really can do it without weeks of prep and playing with friends.

[TorvaldTheMild]

As someone who has played the game for a while, I disagree with the idea that "if you played/collected before you'd like the more complex system more" as proposed by Torvald. 

No he is saying he can't understand why people wouldn't like it and I gave him a reason why people don't like it and one of those is older players that like the older editions.  I didn't say that if you collected from 2nd etc. that you automatically like more complex rules and you know that I wasn't saying that.  I mean I don't know what you think 'probably' means.

Edited November 14, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Berzul]

I get GWs desire to simplify and streamline. But they really took it too far.

 

Things that should be applied in 9th ed, in my opinion:

 

1) Change the Leadership and Morale systems. Have units break, run, and regroup, once more.

 

2) Spread the T and S range more. Have units with higher Toughness so that strength has a wider range on which to work.

 

3) Add a value on the to-wound chart where syou can no longer wound a unit. Perhaps, if your toughness is triple the strength of the attack, you cannot be wounded, or at least your armor improves. Say, a lasgun with a S of 3 was firing against a landspeeder with a T of 9. It cannot wound it, or the unit has a +1 to its save rolls.

 

4) Bring back rotation, facing and weapon arcs. Seriously, how the hell does it make sense for Rhinos to just advance strifing sideways as if on a bad match of Call of Duty. Or for a Bastion to fire forward with a gun that is on the OTHER SIDE OF THE BUILDING! I understand "simple", but this is just "dumb".

[Lord_Starscream]

 

As someone who has played the game for a while, I disagree with the idea that "if you played/collected before you'd like the more complex system more" as proposed by Torvald. 

No he is saying he can't understand why people wouldn't like it and I gave him a reason why people don't like it and one of those is older players that like the older editions.  I didn't say that if you collected from 2nd etc. that you automatically like more complex rules and you know that I wasn't saying that.  I mean I don't know what you think 'probably' means.

 

I played in 2nd.

 

8th is a very complex system, far more than any previous edition. It's just not in the core 'units' or how they behave on the field. It's complex because you're playing a game overtop it, trying to manage your CP's and cast strategems in the right order with unit auras in order to create synergies. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

That takes skill but its not complicated, well at least to me its not.  Are you honestly saying 8th is more complicated than 2nd?  I can understand maybe some of the editions you could debate but 2nd was pretty damn complicated.  I mean even just the dice system was like quantum mechanics lol

Edited November 14, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Lord_Starscream]

That takes skill but its not complicated, well at least to me its not.  Are you honestly saying 8th is more complicated than 2nd?  I can understand maybe some of the editions you could debate but 2nd was pretty damn complicated.  I mean even just the dice system was like quantum mechanics lol

 

I started in 2nd. I never said 8th was more complicated than 2nd. I simply stated, that 8th edition is more complex than people give it credit. It's got tons of rules, many which negate the core rules of the game, and it's got heaps of strategems, psychic abilities, ect, that didn't really exist outside of 7th edition a bit (which was a total mess)

 

The game is complex. It's not as complex as 2nd. Who would argue 2nd was a great system though? We all have our preferences, and 2nd wasn't mine, and still isn't, lol

[Marshal Rohr]

Strategems,etc are just decentralized universal, army, and unit special rules with a built in limiter based on CP generation. Which opens a whole new can of worms like why your Ultramarines first company intercessor squad is just a normal intercessor squad in its next game, even though its painted as a veteran squad. Death Company are about to really show the flaw in this design. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

That takes skill but its not complicated, well at least to me its not.  Are you honestly saying 8th is more complicated than 2nd?  I can understand maybe some of the editions you could debate but 2nd was pretty damn complicated.  I mean even just the dice system was like quantum mechanics lol

 

I started in 2nd. I never said 8th was more complicated than 2nd. I simply stated, that 8th edition is more complex than people give it credit. It's got tons of rules, many which negate the core rules of the game, and it's got heaps of strategems, psychic abilities, ect, that didn't really exist outside of 7th edition a bit (which was a total mess)

 

The game is complex. It's not as complex as 2nd. Who would argue 2nd was a great system though? We all have our preferences, and 2nd wasn't mine, and still isn't, lol

 

 

 

That takes skill but its not complicated, well at least to me its not.  Are you honestly saying 8th is more complicated than 2nd?  I can understand maybe some of the editions you could debate but 2nd was pretty damn complicated.  I mean even just the dice system was like quantum mechanics lol

 

I started in 2nd. I never said 8th was more complicated than 2nd. I simply stated, that 8th edition is more complex than people give it credit. It's got tons of rules, many which negate the core rules of the game, and it's got heaps of strategems, psychic abilities, ect, that didn't really exist outside of 7th edition a bit (which was a total mess)

 

The game is complex. It's not as complex as 2nd. Who would argue 2nd was a great system though? We all have our preferences, and 2nd wasn't mine, and still isn't, lol

 

Fair do's, my bad.

[Captain_Krash]

Just to add a quick point...8th is already there when it comes to "bloat/codex creep" as 7th was. We are here again. But historically speaking that pretty much is GW's status quo for every edition up until we get a 9th edition or a 8.5 etc.

 

Krash

Edited November 14, 2019 by Captain_Krash

[ERJAK]

 

 

I somewhat agree, though the mass shots is probably more to do with crap AT capability in some forces to make them work without creating new viable AT assets for them. Having a USR type rule to ignore -1 and -0 AP shooting and melee would help a lot for things like LR's etc. The whole point of that stuff is to ignore that type of weaponry completely.

Instant death was great as well. There is no reason, even most characters, should survive a S10+ hit.

Instant death was idiotic and made 90% of the characters in the game worthless, even attached to squads.

[ERJAK]

Just to add a quick point...8th is already there when it comes to "bloat/codex creep" as 7th was. We are here again. But historically speaking that pretty much is GW's status quo for every edition up until we get a 9th edition or a 8.5 etc.

 

Krash

We're nowhere near as bloated as 7th was by the end. We're barely to where the game was when codex CWE dropped in 7th.

[Captain_Krash]

Sorry I still need to walk around with multiple sources, codex, FAQs, chapter approved, index, white dwarf, etc. to play my army...and in tournament play especially as well. The removal of USRs did nothing when the exact same rules are on each data sheet just named differently. We are completely at where 7th was with rules bloat if not worse...

 

Krash

Edited November 14, 2019 by Captain_Krash