How faith and Fury affects ultras

[crazyterran]

I kind of like the ability to upgrade characters for my non-Primaris 32k Army, but in terms of Ultramarines as a whole I don't see this replacing Tigurius anytime soon. 

 

Cassius is only 85 points for what he provides, which is a tougher chaplain with a built in relic bolter and crozius. 

 

The real question is if our Champion/Ancient can get the relics/WLTs from F&F, or if they count as specials? I don't think they count as special characters, but...

 

EDIT: The Master of the Forge WLT to get the +1 to hit to vehicles will offset our turn 1 lack of Tactical Doctrine, and for BS3+ vehicles will be BS2+ from turn 2 onwards. Great for Leviathans/C-Mortis dreads who are 2+ to hit anyways, and will let them also offset negatives to hit later on. Not to mention a guaranteed 3 wounds healed is great! And a Techmarine is quite cheap on top of it. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by crazyterran

[Aothaine]

 

 

Strange how people bemoaning F&F changes seem to be ignoring your post pointing out the differences and how much better Tigurius still is. 

 

Anyway, back on topic. F&F seems to have changed things for Ultramarines very little. What this does allow is someone to play a successor chapter and still get access to decent librarians/chaplains which I think it a really good move on GW's part. This is going to encourage people to make their successor chapters and not have everyone play the primary legions/chapters. Only thing successors are really missing out on right now are primarchs but those are still pretty limited so far.

[emperorpants]

 

 

 

Strange how people bemoaning F&F changes seem to be ignoring your post pointing out the differences and how much better Tigurius still is. 

 

Anyway, back on topic. F&F seems to have changed things for Ultramarines very little. What this does allow is someone to play a successor chapter and still get access to decent librarians/chaplains which I think it a really good move on GW's part. This is going to encourage people to make their successor chapters and not have everyone play the primary legions/chapters. Only thing successors are really missing out on right now are primarchs but those are still pretty limited so far.

 

How am I ignoring it?  I straight up changed my stance on Tiggy due to his and kallas's input.  Did you not see that post I made where I changed my stance and said that Tiggy is still better due to all the mentioned reasons?  If you didn't see that post, fair enough, now you know.  If you did though, then I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

 

Anyway, from a crunch perspective it doesn't hurt ultras at all and obviously helps them quite a bit.  I myself have listed a few extra advantages that ultras get in the crunch.  So yes, from a crunch perspective, ultras are fine with this update.  My issue is the fact that other chapters keep getting all our unique things.  It takes away from our identity imo. 

 

I guess I'd like some straight up unique things for ultras that are just for ultras.  These benefits that are being given to other chapters used to be special things only we got.  Now, even if we can still do it a bit better, other chapters can do it too.  It's a trend.  All our special things are getting handed out to other chapters, thus making them seem less special and cool.  It's more of a problem with chapter identity to me then it is a crunch and table top effectiveness issue.  Hope that makes sense. 

 

It would be like if for 2cp or something you could give other chapters black rage proxy.  I suspect there would be some blood angels players thinking it would be silly to do that and they would feel that it takes away from their identity.  That is my main point.

[Aothaine]

 

How am I ignoring it?  I straight up changed my stance on Tiggy due to his and kallas's input.  Did you not see that post I made where I changed my stance and said that Tiggy is still better due to all the mentioned reasons?  If you didn't see that post, fair enough, now you know.  If you did though, then I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

 

 

Anyway, from a crunch perspective it doesn't hurt ultras at all and obviously helps them quite a bit.  I myself have listed a few extra advantages that ultras get in the crunch.  So yes, from a crunch perspective, ultras are fine with this update.  My issue is the fact that other chapters keep getting all our unique things.  It takes away from our identity imo. 

 

I guess I'd like some straight up unique things for ultras that are just for ultras.  These benefits that are being given to other chapters used to be special things only we got.  Now, even if we can still do it a bit better, other chapters can do it too.  It's a trend.  All our special things are getting handed out to other chapters, thus making them seem less special and cool.  It's more of a problem with chapter identity to me then it is a crunch and table top effectiveness issue.  Hope that makes sense. 

 

It would be like if for 2cp or something you could give other chapters black rage proxy.  I suspect there would be some blood angels players thinking it would be silly to do that and they would feel that it takes away from their identity.  That is my main point.

 

 

I did miss you changing stances btw. :D Sorry about that.

 

In regards to "all the unique things" argument though. Ultramarines were never a unique army. They were the example of what all the other armies needed to be, set down by Guilliman himself. Besides, even with that said I still think Ultramarines have plenty of unique things they can take. We can start with the first big thing, a primarch. Congrats! Next, Ultramarines are the only faction that get those sweet primaris body guards. Ohhh and you have Calgar that can take those bodyguards without filling a elite spot. Then you have, what? 5-6 named characters, two of which can give you extra CP.

 

Ultramarines are fine. Not sure how much more unique you want them to be.

 

The Blood Angels are one of those hyper unique armies. The Black Rage is brought on by visions of the death of their Primarch. It wouldn't make sense for other chapters that are not related to Blood Angels having those. Just as it wouldn't make sense for Guilliman being in a Raven Guard army. Every army has something unique about it. Giving other armies, especially successors, the ability to have decent psychers, apothecaries and tech marines is not something bad. These other armies are supposed to be full of these heroes.  

[emperorpants]

 

 

How am I ignoring it?  I straight up changed my stance on Tiggy due to his and kallas's input.  Did you not see that post I made where I changed my stance and said that Tiggy is still better due to all the mentioned reasons?  If you didn't see that post, fair enough, now you know.  If you did though, then I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

 

 

Anyway, from a crunch perspective it doesn't hurt ultras at all and obviously helps them quite a bit.  I myself have listed a few extra advantages that ultras get in the crunch.  So yes, from a crunch perspective, ultras are fine with this update.  My issue is the fact that other chapters keep getting all our unique things.  It takes away from our identity imo. 

 

I guess I'd like some straight up unique things for ultras that are just for ultras.  These benefits that are being given to other chapters used to be special things only we got.  Now, even if we can still do it a bit better, other chapters can do it too.  It's a trend.  All our special things are getting handed out to other chapters, thus making them seem less special and cool.  It's more of a problem with chapter identity to me then it is a crunch and table top effectiveness issue.  Hope that makes sense. 

 

It would be like if for 2cp or something you could give other chapters black rage proxy.  I suspect there would be some blood angels players thinking it would be silly to do that and they would feel that it takes away from their identity.  That is my main point.

 

 

I did miss you changing stances btw. Sorry about that.

 

In regards to "all the unique things" argument though. Ultramarines were never a unique army. They were the example of what all the other armies needed to be, set down by Guilliman himself. Besides, even with that said I still think Ultramarines have plenty of unique things they can take. We can start with the first big thing, a primarch. Congrats! Next, Ultramarines are the only faction that get those sweet primaris body guards. Ohhh and you have Calgar that can take those bodyguards without filling a elite spot. Then you have, what? 5-6 named characters, two of which can give you extra CP.

 

Ultramarines are fine. Not sure how much more unique you want them to be.

 

The Blood Angels are one of those hyper unique armies. The Black Rage is brought on by visions of the death of their Primarch. It wouldn't make sense for other chapters that are not related to Blood Angels having those. Just as it wouldn't make sense for Guilliman being in a Raven Guard army. Every army has something unique about it. Giving other armies, especially successors, the ability to have decent psychers, apothecaries and tech marines is not something bad. These other armies are supposed to be full of these heroes.  

 

No worries!  It happens!  :)

 

Those are decent points.  To add to them, we seem to be unique in so far as we generally aren't as cp starved as the rest of the chapters, and thus can be a bit more free in our strat use, which is cool.  I still feel that gw has been a bit to free with handing out our special stuff, but I'll admit that it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was at first.  Thanks for taking the time to discuss it and put forth some good points.

[Aothaine]

No worries!  It happens! 

 

 

Those are decent points.  To add to them, we seem to be unique in so far as we generally aren't as cp starved as the rest of the chapters, and thus can be a bit more free in our strat use, which is cool.  I still feel that gw has been a bit to free with handing out our special stuff, but I'll admit that it isn't nearly as bad as I thought it was at first.  Thanks for taking the time to discuss it and put forth some good points.

 

All good! That is what these forums are for. I can seem a but stubborn sometimes. If you catch me in the future just call me out. Lol!

 

But yeah, I really feel that F&F was mostly for Black Templars and successor chapters. These rules really help the successor chapters since they do not have named characters generally.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Aothaine

[Ishagu]

Tiggy took a massive hit, you can now make far superior psykers that can take 3 powers from 3 disciplines for less points. His problem is being limited to one discipline.

 

Cassius took a big hit as you can now make a superiors generic Chaplain with better wargear that can also cast 2 litanies a turn.

 

We've gained a better Techmarine, but so has everyone else.

 

Ultras remain a good army as a whole but remain the worst supplement of all the codex Astartes by a somewhat significant margin. The bonus of plentiful unique characters is only significant in the game if they offer unique abilities and unique avenues of play. They don't do that. Guilliman did before the nerf, but he's now a somewhat overpriced beatstick.

 

To give an idea of how Ultras are struggling in comparison to other Astartes, they've met Iron Hands lists 22 times in big events in recent times. Of those 22 games the Iron Hands won 15, drew 5 and lost 2. There's a big discrepancy in supplement power levels, clearly.

Chapters like Raven Guard and White Scars are able to take the Iron Hands on with a much more even win/loss rate indicating a stronger performance.

Whatever bonuses we get from our unique characters, they clearly aren't enough.

 

This shouldn't upset people, I'm aware it sounds negative but it's simply the reality. Ultras lists can still perform well. I'm still playing them.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lol !

[Cruor Vault]

Tiggy took a massive hit, you can now make far superior psykers that can take 3 powers from 3 disciplines for less points. His problem is being limited to one discipline.

 

Cassius took a big hit as you can now make a superiors generic Chaplain with better wargear that can also cast 2 litanies a turn.

 

We've gained a better Techmarine, but so has everyone else.

 

Ultras remain a good army as a whole but remain the worst supplement of all the codex Astartes by a somewhat significant margin. The bonus of plentiful unique characters is only significant in the game if they offer unique abilities and unique avenues of play. They don't do that. Guilliman did before the nerf, but he's now a somewhat overpriced beatstick.

 

To give an idea of how Ultras are struggling in comparison to other Astartes, they've met Iron Hands lists 22 times in big events in recent times. Of those 22 games the Iron Hands won 15, drew 5 and lost 2. There's a big discrepancy in supplement power levels, clearly.

Chapters like Raven Guard and White Scars are able to take the Iron Hands on with a much more even win/loss rate indicating a stronger performance.

Whatever bonuses we get from our unique characters, they clearly aren't enough.

 

This shouldn't upset people, I'm aware it sounds negative but it's simply the reality. Ultras lists can still perform well. I'm still playing them.

 

I think you're overlooking all the extra things Tiggy and Cassius bring to the table over FnF versions.  Both of them have significant advantages over a stock alternative and do not cost valuable CP.  Tiggy's bonus to Deny, re-roll on casting and Master of Prescience are not abilities that can be replicated, 32pts is cheap for any one of them!

 

Cassius isn't as strong a sell, but T5 and Master Crafting on both his bolter and Crozius makes him a nice support character for locking up harassing units that want to move into an UM castle.  If you're looking for a melee character I'd agree with you that the FnF Chaplain is probably a better option.

 

What cutoff are you using to determine the 22 matches?  Only top tables?  All tables? How many events?  I'm genuinely curious.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Cruor Vault

[Ishagu]

 

 

Tiggy took a massive hit, you can now make far superior psykers that can take 3 powers from 3 disciplines for less points. His problem is being limited to one discipline.

 

Cassius took a big hit as you can now make a superiors generic Chaplain with better wargear that can also cast 2 litanies a turn.

 

We've gained a better Techmarine, but so has everyone else.

 

Ultras remain a good army as a whole but remain the worst supplement of all the codex Astartes by a somewhat significant margin. The bonus of plentiful unique characters is only significant in the game if they offer unique abilities and unique avenues of play. They don't do that. Guilliman did before the nerf, but he's now a somewhat overpriced beatstick.

 

To give an idea of how Ultras are struggling in comparison to other Astartes, they've met Iron Hands lists 22 times in big events in recent times. Of those 22 games the Iron Hands won 15, drew 5 and lost 2. There's a big discrepancy in supplement power levels, clearly.

Chapters like Raven Guard and White Scars are able to take the Iron Hands on with a much more even win/loss rate indicating a stronger performance.

Whatever bonuses we get from our unique characters, they clearly aren't enough.

 

This shouldn't upset people, I'm aware it sounds negative but it's simply the reality. Ultras lists can still perform well. I'm still playing them.

I think you're overlooking all the extra things Tiggy and Cassius bring to the table over FnF versions. Both of them have significant advantages over a stock alternative and do not cost valuable CP. Tiggy's bonus to Deny, re-roll on casting and Master of Prescience are not abilities that can be replicated, 32pts is cheap for any one of them!

 

Cassius isn't as strong a sell, but T5 and Master Crafting on both his bolter and Crozius makes him a nice support character for locking up harassing units that want to move into an UM castle. If you're looking for a melee character I'd agree with you that the FnF Chaplain is probably a better option.

 

What cutoff are you using to determine the 22 matches? Only top tables? All tables? How many events? I'm genuinely curious.

Tiggy has some uses, of course. He just isn't worth 130 points when a generic Phobos Libby can take a better combination of powers and comes with the ability to deploy anywhere for 101 points.

 

As for the win/loss thing. That's based on data over the past month or so on 40kstats.com.

It also breaks down the win % by chapter against all opponents. Ultras are significantly lower than other chapters. Unfortunately I fear that GW won't address this by giving them any point reductions due to the Astartes hysteria gripping thr hobby at the moment.

[Kallas]

He just isn't worth 130 points when a generic Phobos Libby can take a better combination of powers and comes with the ability to deploy anywhere for 101 points.

 

I think that's more than a little harsh, and overly simplistic and pessimistic. Several of us have pointed out that other combinations don't pack in nearly as much in the same package, and those that come close come with additional costs, namely CP and Relics/Warlord Traits (which are also a limited resource).

 

Tigurius has his downsides, but he's not worse than the other options: he is still definitely viable and a solid choice. He might not be the best in every situation, but that's fine.

[Frater Cornelius]

A'ight folks. Time for me to crawl back from retirement(?) and declare my opinion

 

The new litany is fairly limited in use, but there is one scenario where I consider it to be very somewhat useful. In fact, it is a list concept that I want to may build towards after Christmas reinforcements arrive. The idea is to stack Guilliman's +1" advance/charge aura with (doesn't stack, nevermind...) Cassius/Master of Sanctity picking Canticle of Hate and March for Macragge for some surprise charges. This involves Bolt Intercessors with Fists, Aggressors, Ancient with +1A banner, maybe the +1A special issue wargear thingy, Invictors, etc. The idea is to hose down infantry and screens on the way and get in some very decent charges as soon as possible. +3" +2" and re-rolls 1s ain't no joke half a joke. Plus, it sounds really quite fun

 

Edited according to my inepititude. Carry on.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Frater Cornelius

[Cruor Vault]

A'ight folks. Time for me to crawl back from retirement(?) and declare my opinion

 

The new litany is fairly limited in use, but there is one scenario where I consider it to be very useful. In fact, it is a list concept that I want to build towards after Christmas reinforcements arrive. The idea is to stack Guilliman's +1" advance/charge aura with Cassius/Master of Sanctity picking Canticle of Hate and March for Macragge for some surprise charges. This involves Bolt Intercessors with Fists, Aggressors, Ancient with +1A banner, maybe the +1A special issue wargear thingy, Invictors, etc. The idea is to hose down infantry and screens on the way and get in some very decent charges as soon as possible. +3" and re-rolls 1s ain't no joke. Plus, it sounds really fun

 

Sorry dude, Canticle of Hate doesn't stack with any other bonus to charge rolls.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

A'ight folks. Time for me to crawl back from retirement(?) and declare my opinion

 

The new litany is fairly limited in use, but there is one scenario where I consider it to be very useful. In fact, it is a list concept that I want to build towards after Christmas reinforcements arrive. The idea is to stack Guilliman's +1" advance/charge aura with Cassius/Master of Sanctity picking Canticle of Hate and March for Macragge for some surprise charges. This involves Bolt Intercessors with Fists, Aggressors, Ancient with +1A banner, maybe the +1A special issue wargear thingy, Invictors, etc. The idea is to hose down infantry and screens on the way and get in some very decent charges as soon as possible. +3" and re-rolls 1s ain't no joke. Plus, it sounds really fun

 

Sorry dude, Canticle of Hate doesn't stack with any other bonus to charge rolls.

 

 

...Nevermind then! Looks like I forgot how to read as well. Then I guess you can get some value if you just drop Bobby G and run the same idea with Calgar + Lt. You lose an inch, but gain a few extra points. Works for me. I adjusted the original post.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Frater Cornelius

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No matter how good it gets there will always be soem salty bois. ;)

[Aothaine]

 

As for the win/loss thing. That's based on data over the past month or so on 40kstats.com.

It also breaks down the win % by chapter against all opponents. Ultras are significantly lower than other chapters. Unfortunately I fear that GW won't address this by giving them any point reductions due to the Astartes hysteria gripping thr hobby at the moment.

 

I am really sorry for piling in on you here Ishagu. I do really value your opinions and enjoy debating with you for sure! But if you're saying that UMs are bad because of the results found at 40kstats your argument has almost zero support in my opinion. Using data from a site that is gathering it's data from a slew of differently skilled players is fine until you start to use that data to say something is not balanced or is under-powered. Were all the lists the same list? Were they against the same opponent? Was the same person playing the lists? 40k is so difficult to balance because most people play what they enjoy playing and don't always play their ruleset to the best it can be played. A great example I have here is that there are like 3-5 people in the world that played Dark Eldar on a hyper competitive level back in 7th edition. Using his results with the results would skew the data significantly to the point that GW could potentially think that Dark Eldar did not even need an update. Seriously, The Spider from Tabletop Tactics has bat reps from his Dark Eldar lists and game pre-update where he is completely smashing other people. 

 

Every since seeing this I have opened my mind a lot more to what is perceived as good and bad. I don't follow the trends and stand by things I think are outstanding. I've been a heavy proponent of flamers and the bolter since 8th ed's release and bolters have only got better. Flamers avoid the hit roll making them exceptionally powerful but with a limited range, ohh and they hit flyers for some reason lol! I remember back when the indexes released I was trying to sell T'au players on the power of the quad flamer suit squads. In all my testing it would just dumpstering everything it got in range for. 

 

Anyway, back on topic. I think the data your using is not very solid and should not be used to defend your stance that UMs are in a bad state. Look at BFF's bat reps for a good example of a strange list building style that is giving him a lot of success. It is strange to me as my list building style follows Tabletop Tactics style mainly, see their tactica classes if you are interested in it. I think UMs are a lot more powerful than most people and your data believe/suggests. Also, the codex/supplement in the hands of a hyper competitive tactician will be able to build lists that are incredibly difficult to stop. 

 

I do agree with one thing though. Sometimes it is better to take the F&F options. Especially for UMs who can have plenty of CPs to burn. You're suggestion of the F&F phobos libby is a good example. But you also need to ask yourself, unless your designing your entire list to be super forward, the libby being able to deploy anywhere doesn't really matter. I do like the Bash Chaplain more than Cassius though, but you have been able to build him prior to F&F so.. I dunno.

 

Anyway, keep up the good fight! Despite us disagreeing so much I still value your opinion and respect it. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just don’t see any value to these kind of threads and find them non constructive. For all the hate our chapter has you’d think some would be happy other chapters are taking the heat now.

[Aothaine]

I just don’t see any value to these kind of threads and find them non constructive. For all the hate our chapter has you’d think some would be happy other chapters are taking the heat now.

 

Yeah I don't know about the heat other chapters are getting. I remember being involved in the Iron Hands fiasco though for sure. But I can see your point about the thread. But sometimes you can convince people that things are not so bad though. I think that makes these worth it.

 

On the brightside, even Ultramarines can make great use out of the Chief Apothecary. Most likely even more use than other chapters as it seems their entire rule set is built around infantry armies. Then there is the improved tech marine that Ultramarines now have access to as well.

 

Sure other chapters gained more from this release. But those chapters were lacking in other areas. I imagine Raven Guard, White Scars and Imperial Fists, who are all starved for named characters are super hyped for this release. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Aothaine

[Frater Cornelius]

 

[...]

 

Sure other chapters gained more from this release. But those chapters were lacking in other areas. I imagine Raven Guard, White Scars and Imperial Fists, who are all starved for named characters are super hyped for this release.

 

Consider also those who like to run UM successors or those who like to run pure Primaris. While it makes actual UM less special by comparison, I think it is justified, considering how much others are gaining. If we want a level playing field, sometimes we need to give up a little bit of our own (the state other factions are in compared to SM notwithstanding, but hopefully we'll get there eventually).

[jonjacob]

I'm likeing that blade of triumph for chapter champion. Warlord trait to reroll charges ain't bad either. I haven't seen any reason ultra supplement champion cannot take these. Edited November 20, 2019 by jonjacob

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I over all like the book and will buy it.