Invictor Warsuit

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, can my Frater help me with this one? I like the Warsuit in theory, but practically, I just cannot pull the trigger.

 

For Dreadnoughts, I usually run either a Venerable with Twin Las and Missile, or an Ironclad (or two). For the Venerable, it is a durable Heavy Weapons platform that is decently mobile, and can fit in most ruins. It hits on a 2+ (or 3+ vs fliers and stealth units), and its 6+++ is gravy. Now the Ironclad, it's big draw is T8, which is rock solid, and that Chainfist. It can soak a lot of fire, especially if you pop smoke on it, and it is scary enough to draw fire, but I do not lose much when it dies. Both are 8W, and therefore do not degrade.

 

Now for the Warsuit. It is T6, and a vehicle, and enough wounds to degrade, and it will, especially if you go second. Going first, getting right in there with the Incendium Cannon, seems to be the way they are kitted out. Is the Autocannon option garbage?

 

Also, it appears that you have to either run two or three of them, or really support them to get the most out of them. So, is redundancy the way to go, or what units combo best with them?

 

Finally, who is using them on the tabletop, and how are they performing? Do they mesh well with our Chapter Tactics? For example, I asked about Autocannon vs Incendium Cannon, because we lose the cover for getting close enough to use the Incendium Cannon.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I've run 2 autocannon warsuits in about a dozen games and they are excellent value.  They draw fire away from my infantry and are annoying to kill with 13 wounds.  I much prefer the autocannons since they are effective at range keeping them alive longer in games in which you go second.  Because they move 10" you can get up the field fairly easily.  Im not a fan of flamer warsuits for raven guard since they are too easily killed at close range.  

Edited November 18, 2019 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[Jacques Corbin]

Yes, 13 wounds is nice, but at T6 they are kind of squishy, and require either a second suit, or running more vehicles.

 

I just cannot bring myself to purchase one yet.

[ValourousHeart]

IMO It is extremely difficult to compare models to each other when you plan to use those models in different ways. And as a result player tend to get the analysis wrong 100% of the time.

 

In the past a Land Speeder and a Predator cost the same points.  So it was my contention at the time that you couldn't expect to just trade out that predator for a land speeder and have the speeder support the army exactly the same as the predator without making other changes to your list.  However that is exactly what people did and this lead people to underestimate the land speeder for several editions.

 

It is also why players tend to grade on a curve when comparing Intercesors and Scouts.  Intercesors are better at every role, but you pay a premium in points for that.  Scouts are dirt cheap and leave you with more points if you want the list to focus on Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy Support units while still retaining a good number of CP.

 

So start by looking at 2 models that you would use essentially the same way in whatever list you plan to field.  For example.

 

1. Ven Dread with Twin Auto Cannon and DCCW w/ Stormbolter
2. Invictor War Suit with Autocannon

These are both fire support / home objective defenders, with the same primary target, hellblasters.  So how do they compare?

 

1. Invictor wins on movement
2. Ven wins on WS and BS
3. S/T is effectively a tie IMO, but you may judge these different.
4. Invictor wins on wounds
   1. Ven has to roll five 6s on Unyielding Ancient to match the wounds of the Invictor
5. Attacks, Leadership and Save are the same for both
6. Weapons - Invictor wins
   1. Invictor autocannon get +2 shots over the Ven
   2. 2 heavy stubbers are better than 1 stormbolter
   3. Invictor has a Heavy bolter and grenade launcher over an above the weapons the Ven has
   4. Heavy bolter can be used while in CC.
7. Points - Invictor is cheaper

So objectively that loadout for the Invictor is clearly better than that loadout for the Ven dread.

 

But I think you can now see that trying to compare a Ven Dread with Lascannon and ML to an Invictor with Incendium Cannon misses out on a huge section of your list.  What in the Ven Dread list is clearing out infantry from distant objectives?  What in the Invictor list is dealing with tanks and knights?  Both of those options need to be considered when making that trade.

 

 

Is the Autocannon option garbage?

 

Would you consider a Melta gun garbage compared to a flamer.  Flamer auto hits and gets more shots, so is clearly better right?  No it depends on the target.  Vs Orks who are going to be trying to get in your grill I'd say the Autocannon is better if you want to keep them at bay longer because it is great against the boys and the trucks.  But the Incendium cannon is better when the boys get closer.  Also I probably wouldn't infiltrate vs Orks so I could get more turns to shoot before they got there.  But vs IG and Tau, I more than likely would infiltrate the War Suit.

 

Also, it appears that you have to either run two or three of them, or really support them to get the most out of them. So, is redundancy the way to go, or what units combo best with them?

 

I feel that redundancy is always important.  I tend to play small model count armies and as such I feel it is better to have a way for all of my units to deal with everything, instead of hoping that the only unit I have to deal with that one scary thing my opponent has is in a good position to deal with it.

 

But I know that some players tend to think that Spam is a 4 letter word.

 

Using an Invictor with Infiltrators doubles down on the area denial.  You can't deploy within 12 inches and given the Incendium Cannon's 12 inch range would you really want to even deploy that close.

 

Finally, who is using them on the tabletop, and how are they performing? Do they mesh well with our Chapter Tactics? For example, I asked about Autocannon vs Incendium Cannon, because we lose the cover for getting close enough to use the Incendium Cannon.

 

I recently fielded an Incendium cannon Invictor to replace my Autocannon Ven Dread in my Ravenwing Speeder list.  It did a number on my opponent when I shot his hellblasters with the incendium cannon.  And it did a number on both of us when the chapter master in gravis armor charged the Invictor.  The explosion took out my opponents remaining intercessors, put the chapter master on 1 wound, and on my side took out 3 of the 7 speeders that were in range of the explosion, one of which was Sableclaw.

 

So short answer is it was a spectacular game, but I really need more practice with the Invictor.

 

I currently have 2 with the Incendium Cannon, and plan on getting 2 more to build with the Autocannon.

[MajorNese]

With RGs special deployment options, I'd say the Invictor fills a niche we can make use of, when aiming for early board control.

 

With Concealed Positions, Infiltrator strat, MoA and Impulsors, we can dump a lot of infantry in the midfield turn 1. But all other Concealed Positions units are underwhelming in CC and AT. Deploying an Invictor or two not only increases the no-DS bubble, but offers us counter charge and a resilient target to soak up the heavier firepower that would make short work of footsloggers. They won't survive forever, but their wound count means they will survive heavier AT (ie lascannons) just as long as the more expensive T7/T8 vehicles.

 

By turn 2+, the reinforcements should be in the midfield to cement the board control, and we can look for more synergies - the Impulsor for example could lock AT units in CC/soak up AT, and buff characters could compensate a degrading profile.

 

For the whole "hold the midfield" business, I'd consider the autocannon version - if not deployed in the center, it should gain cover against most of the enemy units and doesn't need to be in the front row to fire its main gun. The flamer is better for overwatch and getting in CC range, so both are useful in their distinct ways.

[BuiltForSin]

I use the Invictor as a Distraction Carnifex and it fills this role just great. It's ability to pop up right in front of your enemy's face with its 2D6 flamer and it's S10 in close combat is just awesome for early board control. It's not a unit to plan with for the whole game, but 2 or even 3 of them should occupy your enemy long enough to pick your enemies army into pieces. I managed to shoot 2000 Points of Dark Eldar off the table in 3 rounds with this tactic, not even maximizing my list. 

[Jacques Corbin]

Ah, I can always trust @MajorNeese. Thanks, again, for the sage advice. Especially that last paragraph, because that would be my intended use for the Invictor, hold the midfield, and provide fire support.

 

I disagree on the Vanguard Marines though. I love my Incursors! Also my Carbine Reivers.

 

So, I guess it would be 2 Warsuits with Autocannons, providing midfield support. The flamer version as a distraction carnifex is good, in theory, but I can't see it being worth it. @BuiltForSin really nailed it though, my current distraction carnifex is an Ironclad Dreadnought. I think once or twice he manages to get into melee, but mostly he just soaks up fire for the rest of the army first turn.

 

When making lists, I pretend I am going second vs a Tau list with lots of suits and drones, and hover tanks, and Riptides. Yeah, that Incendium Cannon would roast Pathfinders in cover (reducing markerlights is always good), and take out some drones, but I think the heavier stuff would laugh it off.

 

Also, a Raven Guard list is not the blunt object that an Iron Hands list is. Rather than bombarding our enemy off the table, our strength is in attacking from as many different angles as possible, and eliminating the sources of enemy buffs, because even our basic Bolters are deadly with AP-1 with Surgical Strikes on top of that. Even against castles (where I personally think we do best), we can split our force, one part keeping them castled while thinning their numbers, the other part claiming objectives (which will have cover and -1 to hit when those castled up try to shoot them).

 

So, I guess it will be at least 2 warsuits, with Autocannons, supporting the midfield and advanced units. I still want to try the MoA Chaplain with 6 Bolter Aggressors on one flank, and the dropping Carbine Reivers with Grav Chutes and the Grav Chute Lt w/ Ex Tenebrous in on/near the other flank. A Warsuit supporting each effort would definitely be a boon, and support from 2 TFCs would help too. Thanks brothers!

 

However, I would like to keep this going with strategy on utilizing the Invictor Warsuit.

[Claws and Effect]

I don't have one yet, but my plan is to do the flamer version and make it a pure distraction carnifex.

 

Anything that takes pressure off my twin grav flux Leviathan stomping up the board is a good thing. The Levi is tough, but my invuln save rolls are hysterically bad.

[MajorNese]

I disagree on the Vanguard Marines though. I love my Incursors! Also my Carbine Reivers.

They are useful and reasonably cheap, but the lack of wargear options for high strength/AP/multidamage rather restrict them to the role of skirmishers and harassment unit. They can't go toe to toe with dedicated CC units or tackle vehicles and hope to win (or even inflict serious damage), but that's what the Invictor can bring to the table.

 

I'll have to try out some full midfield army lists in the next month. First Invictor and Incursor squad are ready, an Impulsor will follow, then more Invictors/Incursors.

[Jacques Corbin]

True, but the days of Squads with a Combi, Special, and Heavy are behind us. Firstborn can still do that, but I do not see Primaris doing that anytime soon. I believe the reason for this is Apocalypse. I truly believe Primaris units were designed with Apocalypse rules in mind. No more swiss army units, there has to be synergy between units.

 

Still, that is why I would take 2 warsuits with Autocannons, because the Vanguard lack Heavy/Special weapons.

 

So, next I am wondering what other vehicles to take, so the Warsuits will not be the only thing drawing the attention of the enemy's big guns? Thoughts?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

True, but the days of Squads with a Combi, Special, and Heavy are behind us. Firstborn can still do that, but I do not see Primaris doing that anytime soon. I believe the reason for this is Apocalypse. I truly believe Primaris units were designed with Apocalypse rules in mind. No more swiss army units, there has to be synergy between units.

 

Still, that is why I would take 2 warsuits with Autocannons, because the Vanguard lack Heavy/Special weapons.

 

So, next I am wondering what other vehicles to take, so the Warsuits will not be the only thing drawing the attention of the enemy's big guns? Thoughts?

 

Pretty hard to argue with a pair of Contemptor Mortis with 2x Twin Las

[MajorNese]

So, next I am wondering what other vehicles to take, so the Warsuits will not be the only thing drawing the attention of the enemy's big guns? Thoughts?

Well...it depends.

I'd say the threat management hinges on 2 choices - how expensive should that fire magnet be, and how much fire do you want to divert?

 

The expensiveness of that fire magnet would also dictate how effective the fire magnet is - anything with few wounds but a lot of firepower will not stay alive long, anything with lots of wounds but mediocre threat will not divert fire off the Invictors marching downrange. Combining both gets expensive, see Repulsor Executioner.

 

The fire divertion percentage should also hinge on vehicle toughness.

If you field a scary T8 vehicle (let's say a Repulsor Executioner) it will soak up every available shot of S9+ and most S8. S7, as it's only wounding T8 half as much as T6, will continue to target the Invictor. If you'd go for T7, it may soak up some of the S7 too, depending on which target is more urgent. T7 would waste any S9+ advantage, reducing overall effectiveness of your opponent's army. T8 would be more reliable in pulling S9+ shots off your Invictors - if those still target the Invictor, it's clearly a waste of S9+, but if not, every weapon will have its most effective target available.

 

Lastly, range would be an issue. If you hide your distraction unit in the board corner with limited field of view, many weapons will simply be out of range/LoS and target the Invictor due to lack of better targets. Bringing the fire magnet roughly to an equal distance might help in diverting more fire, especially 36"/24" will increase the "coverage".

 

 

Pretty hard to argue with a pair of Contemptor Mortis with 2x Twin Las

Not the cheapest and most resilient option, but otherwise works. Ignore them, and they stay a huge threat, target them and the Invictors are free to do their thing. Only the wound count is not the most impressive - last game, I first took out an Invictor with most of my turn 1 fire, and killed a Contemptor Mortis with a few spare lascannons.

 

In my armies, Tarantulas worked well so far. Cheap, enough big guns to warrant attention, though not that critical to lose. Repulsors of either variant would be comparably expensive, but with the Stealth buff at least they compensate the lack of an invul. Or Redemptors - marching those downrange would yield a near identical target, and would even make the Invictors look like the cheap distraction unit.

[Jacques Corbin]

Perhaps the upgraded Techmarine standing next to the Contemptor Mortis will do the trick?

 

I also run 2 Thunderfire Cannons in my games since 8th dropped. They draw a lot of hate in and out of the game. Most opponents feel the artillery needs to be dealt with. However the TFCs are usually tucked away in the back corners of my deployment zone, behind LoS blocking terrain. I lose one if my opponent can get to it, but they never make it to the second one. Still, they do not exactly draw fire from the big guns.

[MajorNese]

Perhaps the upgraded Techmarine standing next to the Contemptor Mortis will do the trick?

On a higher wound count (Repulsor/LR) - definitely. On a lower wound count - personally I doubt it, but that's depending on points level, your opponent's list and how agressively you use the Invictor. If there's enough AT to blow up the contemptor in one round, and the Invictor is not an absolutely urgent threat, the techmarine's duty would be limited to catching parts of the burning wreckage with his face.

 

Last time I used a LR as fire magnet - it barely survived the first turn, and only held out until end of the game because I got in my opponent's face with the remaining army on turn 2, meaning it never got shot at again. It served its purpose, but anything with less toughness or wounds would have died that turn. So yeah, you will lose units, but it remains to be decided which one will die.

[Kouran]

I use a pair of flyers (storm talons) in conjunction with a relic contemptor dread (melee weapon and kheres ac) and they work well. The contemptor avances to mid field with our strat, normally it survives because the flyers with the -1 to hit and our Raven Guard ability  soak a lot of fire, I guess you can do the same and pair two invictors with two flyers to give diverse urgent treats to the opponent.    

[MajorNese]

I use a pair of flyers (storm talons) in conjunction with a relic contemptor dread (melee weapon and kheres ac) and they work well. The contemptor avances to mid field with our strat

Which strat? If you mean Infiltrators (pre-game move) that's restricted to infantry.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

See, but Remain Unseen?

[superwill]

What I’m currently tossing up is a fully devoted threat overload list. Invictors are decent value for their points but can be killed, and in an army where they’re one of only a few immediately pressing threats, they will be killed.

 

I’m thinking a list full of high-pressure, must-die units. A maxed centurion squad thrown forward with MoA. That’s a no-brainer - you can’t leave six centurions on your doorstep. Maybe a Fire Raptor (or even two) - possibly the most “I need that to kill that before turn one” unit available to marines. Xiphons are also very deadly if not dealt with. Nothing like eliminators or TFC who just slowly chip away but can kind of be ignored, and nothing as impotent as intercessors. Apart from maybe 165 points of scouts, everything in the army is extreme threat level (including three invictors deployed up front probably being the least threatening thing) and in normal circumstances would be killed first. In a game like that, deployed that aggressively, if you go first you would really have to play bad to not just blow your opponents head off turn one. The second turn is always going to be the problem, but I actually thinking by putting all your eggs in that basket you’re actually better off than just putting a few. They won’t be able to crack all the eggs. And maybe a situation like that would make our CP strat-tax on T1 actually worthwhile, as they’d be wanting to go hard on turn one.

 

Just spitballing at the moment. I’ve had some decent results so far with a generally more standard list (running SftS combos) and am not convinced that a full threat list would really work, but I think it’s definitely worth an experiment.

[Frater Cornelius]

Unless you're UM or IH, you're pretty much going for a flamer Invictor. This means you want to operate as close to the front as possible. MoA Centurions/Aggressors, Infiltrator Vanguard Vets and/or JP characters, various Phobos boys. The only units that are allowed not to be in the opponent's face turn 1 are sniper units and Intercessors/TFC guarding the back.

Like with most list concepts, you need to commit. Just throwing in a few Invictors and see what happens won't work.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Frater Cornelius

[Brom MKIV]

I run a single invictor currently although I own several. AC every time for me after trying the flamer briefly. I find one to be a sweet spot personally. Two can be strong at times but also easy points in too many games and too "all in" for my tastes.

 

Instead of more suits I prefer 2-3 flyers as functional overlap. Or maybe it's vice versa. To me the two choices are analogue. Flyers are better in multiples and suffer less from more common counters.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Jacques Corbin]

Thank you Brom. That is very constructive, much better than telling us this or that just will not work unless we play a certain faction.

[Brom MKIV]

Your welcome! Keep us posted on your experiences since there's probably a use I haven't explored yet.

[jpwyrm]

I've played tow or three games with Invictor and I must say I really like them. They make great distraction Carnifexes and help spread the hurt when you Ambush Centurions/Aggressors forward. I have yet to try the AC but it looks like it might be a more versatile setup than the Incendiary canon and I'm all about versatility.

 

@Brom MKIV : I'm curious about your list. I love air support but I've had pretty poor results with them in 8th. What do you field alongside the Invictors and Flyers? Are they the workhorse of your force or a smoke screen that hide the real heavy hitters/game winners?

[Brom MKIV]

Sorry about the delay. Heres the last list I played iirc. I was asked by a friend to tone down the last one particularly the elims so I wrote this. 

 

 

Battalion RG SCR- master artisans, lr marksmen

 

HQ

captain jump pack, shield, power fist 112

warlord chaplain jump pack, canticle, master of ambush 90

 

TROOPS

5 intercessors chainsword, auto bolt rifles 90

5 intercessors chainsword, bolt rifles, aux gl 86

5 incursors 95

 

ELITES

8 vanguard jump packs, serg- th/ss, 3 th/ss, 4 cs/ss 216

3 assault centurions flamers, hurricanes 156

3 assault centurions flamers, hurricanes 156

invictor warsuit twin ironhail ac 136

 

FLYERS

stormtalon gunship twin assc, typhoon ml 176

stormhawk interceptor 2 assc, icarus sc, typhoon ml 171

 

 

Battalion RG SCR- master artisans, lr marksmen

 

HQ

phobos captain mc instigator, combat knife, ex tenebris 99

captain jump pack, mc boltgun, power sword, burning blade 100

 

TROOPS

5 scouts chainsword, 3 knives, 2 snipers 59

5 scouts chainsword, 3 knives, 2 snipers 59

5 scouts chainsword, 5 knives 55

 

HS

3 eliminators 72

3 eliminators 72

 

TOTAL : 2000

Command Pts 13

Less: 1 (token)

 

Stratagems

sfts/infiltrators 4, blades 1, relic 1, hero 1, trifold 1, cmd 1, 3 flex

 

The flyers/invictor are distractions and assassins which is partly why I prefer the flyers. IMO they're undercosted. The stronger version of this has a full airwing with stealthy making them quite durable from the start.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[jpwyrm]

Very cool list indeed. Looks like the flyers play a similar role than TFC in other competitive lists, but can also tackle higher toughness targets too. They are more susceptible to LOS blocking terrain though. Anyway, thanks for sharing, I might give this a try in the near future.