Why are our Initiates 13 points?

[BaronTuman]

What makes our Initiates worth an extra point (13) over a tactical marine's 12 points?  Is it because we can have slightly cheaper neophytes at 11 to soak wounds?

 

Taking a 20 man squad has some small advantages, but the disadvantages caused by morale checks seem to overcome that.

 

I'm not seeing it.  Please convince me that this is fair.

[Link2edition]

Where are you getting the points from?

Battlescribe uses the old points because it was updated before our supplement came out.

[Palmu]

There's no point in convincing someone about something that isn't true.

 

Hopefully it's nothing but an error from lifting the point costs from an older version.

[Hymnblade]

Supposedly, there are no points changes to anything in PA2. So, they're 13 points because nothing has happened that could have reduced it. It's conceivable that they could still be reduced in Chapter Approved.

[Medjugorje]

it is already leaked in some previews in youtube (Winter SEO, Glacial Geek,...).

 

I would say becuse they still better then tactical squads. They give the Neos buffs and have some really good Stratagems BUT i am very disappointed about the point costs of neophytes. They should be 8-9 Points instead.

[Aothaine]

it is already leaked in some previews in youtube (Winter SEO, Glacial Geek,...).

 

I would say becuse they still better then tactical squads. They give the Neos buffs and have some really good Stratagems BUT i am very disappointed about the point costs of neophytes. They should be 8-9 Points instead.

 

8-9? I was under the impression that they were basically scouts. Scouts are 11ppm.

[redmapa]

I think GW reasoning was that a Crusader squad shouldnt be cheaper than a Tactical so with this a 5/5 split on Neophytes remains the same points as a Tactical. I dont agree with it but I can see something like that dictating this decision.

 

 

 

8-9? I was under the impression that they were basically scouts. Scouts are 11ppm.

 

Scouts can Infiltrate, ours cant and while I would love for them to drop a point I think the Paired Combatant is a good trade off and they can remain 11pts as far as Im concerned. 

[Acebaur]

 

it is already leaked in some previews in youtube (Winter SEO, Glacial Geek,...).

 

I would say becuse they still better then tactical squads. They give the Neos buffs and have some really good Stratagems BUT i am very disappointed about the point costs of neophytes. They should be 8-9 Points instead.

 

8-9? I was under the impression that they were basically scouts. Scouts are 11ppm.

 

 

Scouts also have special rules, like Scout, that Neophytes don't

[Link2edition]

If you want to get technical, neophytes reroll 1's, scouts don't. So meh

[Closet Skeleton]

Part of me is wondering if space marines are going back up in chapter approved but its more likely a mistake/oversight. Points are technically not a core rule in 8th so maybe someone else wrote that section of the book.

 

Silliest thing is that the Emperor's Champion's power level went up to something stupid like 9.

 

Bottom line is that the rules team doesn't want marines to be viable as a horde army and the whole point of a crusader squad is to be the marine version of a horde army. They're not going to give us 12 point initiates and 9 point neophytes no matter how 'fair' that would be.

[Schlitzaf]

Then they should have given/let us keep faux Devi configuration tbf

[Medjugorje]

I think GW reasoning was that a Crusader squad shouldnt be cheaper than a Tactical so with this a 5/5 split on Neophytes remains the same points as a Tactical. I dont agree with it but I can see something like that dictating this decision.

 

 

 

8-9? I was under the impression that they were basically scouts. Scouts are 11ppm.

 

Scouts can Infiltrate, ours cant and while I would love for them to drop a point I think the Paired Combatant is a good trade off and they can remain 11pts as far as Im concerned. 

do you think anyone would play them if Tactical Marines would cost 13 points but could deepstrike or placed like Scouts do?

[Closet Skeleton]

Then they should have given/let us keep faux Devi configuration tbf

 

Meh, faux devi reminds me of every reason I shelved my Black Templars. If they give me a thematic rule I don't care if they take away a bonus could only be exploited by writing lists that specialized against the army theme.

 

Hearing about being able to run 3rd ed style combat squads as the advantage to playing Black Templars just put me off way more than the bad rules did. Not being able to take the extra melee weapon in small squads sucks but to be honest those are traps since they took away the +1 attack for two weapons (though getting the +1 attack for charging back is alright).

 

I'd rather have 4+ WS/BS neophytes at 6-8 ppm than have faux devi rubbish.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Schlitzaf]

It’s not the advantage it’s one of the advantages, as for what it represents. Black Templar’s are a chapter defined by band of brotherhood. Are boys don’t form together because they happened to join at the same time or because some book written by someone who is neither our actual father or gene father. But because we are bro’s and bonded by fellowship. The faux Devi setup represent an archaic and otherwise lassiez flair to chapter organization.

[Palmu]

The only surprise about losing the double weapon option was that it didn't happen in 6th edition already.

 

It was a relic, and while I'm sad to see it gone because power=good, I knew it would happen some day.

 

This joke of a rule we got in its place isn't really worth squat in this edition though.

[Smirnov]

Maybe the idea is that we have to pay more because initiates can take options that are unavailable to tactical marines

[Ciler]

I've brought up the question on the BT tactica facebook post released by the community today : https://www.facebook.com/pg/Warhammer-40000-1575682476085719/posts/?ref=page_internal

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It can't be the option to take a chain sword and bolt pistol. Assault marines are 12 now too.

[Ciler]

Grey Hunters are 13 pts but they can take a bolt pistol, bolter AND chainsword.

[Medjugorje]

There are just 3 reasons:

 

- GW dont care that much

- GW dont want push BT to much

- GW think that the option for 2 meleeweapons and to take chainswords instead of bolters should be good in terms of power on the table. 

 

 

 

Sometimes I have the feeling about GW think that melee is so much stronger then shooting.

[Palmu]

It's #1, there are no points changes for anyone in Faith and Fury, the point costs were lifted from the downloadable datasheets we got a while back, which were made prior to the SM update.

 

I assume this will be FAQ'd alongside the other issues we have right now. 

[Medjugorje]

I will bet against you. In 2020 Crusadersquad still have 13/11 point cost.

[Palmu]

You're on - What're we betting on? A signature to note the loss to the other?

[MarshalMittermeier]

doesn't matter.

 

6 x 5-man squads are 30 points more expensive. who cares?

 

thematicaly, we are penalized for 5-manning the troops, whereas the 5 initiates/5 neos configuration is equal cost to 10 tacticals and has more options. (so we are encouraged to use less MSU).

 

competitively, meh. even if we MSU, 30 points from the whole armylist (assuming brigade or dual battalion) mean nothing compared to other advantages. so, if these other advantages are strong/used well, the 30 points against the BT player wont make a difference.

[Medjugorje]

You're on - What're we betting on? A signature to note the loss to the other?

okay - but I hope you are the winner^^

 

@marshalMittermaier - it does matter. 30 points for the 30 Cursader and still at least 54points for the 27 Neophytes

its already exact an additional assault squad with powerfist. Not bad if I want to play my list fluffy

Edited November 19, 2019 by Medjugorje