A Faith Sorely Tested - Help enthuse me about our rules!

[kombatwombat]

With our full rules now available, I’ve been digesting the new lay of the land for us, and I must confess to having my zeal sorely tested.

 

This is probably going to read like a griping thread, but really my hope for it is that others prove me wrong, and point out things I’ve misunderstood or missed that make our rules work a lot better than I currently understand them to.

 

The overall theme of the Black Templar rules seems to be one of counter-synergy; that is, rather than complementing each other, our rules detract from or outright combat one another. Whereas other Chapters want to stack different buffs to create a powerful unit or units, our best strategy seems to be to limit the amount you spend on buffs and investing in a lethal unit.

 

The most painfully apparent case is the Doctrine bonus. This shows very little benefit against lower toughness values - when swinging against T3 or T4 targets, with 30 Str4 attacks the bonus will yield an extra wound or two. It really works best against T8 targets where it also shows a good yield for our stronger melee weapons, but given that I can likely count on my fingers the number of T8 targets that aren't Vehicles (Wraithlords, Wraithknights, Gargantuan Squiggoths, Tyranid Bio-Titans and Heirodules, four named Greater Daemons... any more?) the bonus doesn't work where it would be most effective. Leave alone the comparison to the White Scars bonus, which is just sickening. It also works against Lieutenants and our unique reroll 1s to wound Litany - the benefit of one detracts from the benefit of the other.

 

Given our melee bent, we really need to be utilising transports and Deep Strike to work - which is great for matching the fluff of how our army operates. The issue is, that using transports and Deep Strike shut down Litanies, which are the source of most of our unique buffs and potential synergies. There is potential for things like +2" to Charge for a unit coming off Deep Strike, but a Deep Striking unit can't use it unless you wrangle a way for a non-Deep Striking, non-transported Chaplain to reach the Deep Strike landing zone - which prevents you from being able to react to your opponent or forces you to take multiple earthbound Chaplains. Similarly, Deep Striking units can't they benefit from the +1 Attack that would help set up a punishing alpha strike, nor the 5+++ Litany that would lend them some additional survivability.

 

Another real kick in the teeth is that apparently other Chapters get a 'free' Chapter-Specific Litany in addition to chosen ones. While we have the option to choose from our own table, we traded witchery powers (which, by activating in the Witch Phase, have far greater utility for Deep Strikers/Transports) to get it, and now our Chaplains know 2 Litanies whereas the other Chapters know 3.

 

We did get a way to advance to the Assault Doctrine as we'd hoped, though only one, and again, it's shut down by transports and Deep Strike as it requires user and target to start the turn on the board. Given that you'll likely advance to Assault Doctrine by T3, you really have T1 and T2 to use this. Without Deep Strike, the only real ways to use this T1 are on Bikers, which lack the attack volume to do much real melee damage, and Jump Pack units, which are an expensive and squishy unit to invest a Relic, Stratagems and Litanies into to get them to... ultimately probably kill a screen. T2 you may get to use it, though only on units that didn't T1 in a Transport, which means if they're actually a threat, your opponent has ample opportunity to erase them from existence.

 

Grimaldus is excellent, though he suffers from the same Litany mechanics issues as other Chaplains. Helbrecht and the Champion are also fantastic, though the Champion really shines when he's with Helbrecht as he hits that sweet Str8 break point, though in doing so his rerolls to hit ability becomes pointless - another case of a lack of synergy. Both rules are nice to have, but to get the advantages stacking you're paying for abilities that step on each other's toes. Similarly, Helbrecht’s Strength aura is solid, but it works against our Doctrine bonus. The characters overall are our strongest point IMO, though all suffer from a lack of mobility. So, put them in a transport - at which point Grimaldus' Litanies stop working, and the other two can't benefit from Litanies or the Assault Doctrine relic.

 

The LRC strat is nice, though in my experience, a LRC is a mobile suicide booth - the disembarkation mechanics this edition require you to get close and then let your opponent have a turn, where a competent opponent will generally wrap it and either blow it up along with everything inside, or ignore it an its expensive cargo for the rest of the game. The Falling Back block stratagem is fantastic, though you just know you're going to roll a 1 on the 2+, so you need to factor in a CP Reroll, which pushes it to 3CP, and we've all felt the pain of CP rerolling a 1 just to get another 1, at which point you've dumped 3CP into it to do exactly nothing. Even with that caveat it's still a nice trick, though for Night Lords to get a better version of the strat, that works automatically, for 1CP, in the same book, feels outright insulting regardless of Chaos' other problems.

 

Crusader Squads losing their faux-Devi loadout doesn't worry me personally, though I know it irks a lot of other fraters. Being stuck at 13/11 points is a slap in the face when Tacticals are 12, though the real issue for me is, once again, a counter synergy. The advantage of a Crusader Squad mechanically is the ability to use the cheaper Neophytes as bullet sponges, or to put Ap- hits onto the Initiates and high-Ap hits onto the Neophytes. The Paired Combatants rule works against this - instead of choosing where to land each hit, you're encouraged to alternate between each type of model to maintain the 50/50 split.

 

There are other nice things in there - the 4++ relic is great, and Advance and Charge is great if you're not Deep Striking, but overall it feels like we were given all the tools to make some strong combos, but then prevented from combining them. In an edition that is all about those powerful combos, I perceive our rules as having fallen a step behind. Sure, we still have a strong Codex backing us, but other factions will get Codex updates too, and then we'll be left behind.

 

Please brothers, change my mind. I should be excited to try our new toys, but right now, all I can think is 'why don't I just run White Scars?'. Please help!

Edited November 19, 2019 by kombatwombat

[redmapa]

I would argue that what we do better than White Scars is Alpha Strike, we can reach the enemy lines faster and with more units than White Scars which are limited to movement stratagems that dont allow them to charge and cant reroll charge range while we can reroll the charge range AND can make that into a 8" with as many units as you can fit in a 6" aura (or 9" with the Crusader Helm). So compared to White Scars we have quantity and a more reliable assault phase whereas they have movement options and better quality attacks.

 

Im not gonna say our doctrine is good, it isnt, but you shouldn't look at others for what we lack but rather look at what you have. Now if you do feel like others have a better situation then there's nothing stopping you from using other rules, its a game and you're not married to the chapter plus with succesor tactics you can do a lot of interesting combos and personally Im wondering how effective a soup list would be with just stratagems and warlord traits because Im not 100% sold on our Doctrine and I have half a dozen leman russes that want to see some battles!.

[JAG Templar]

Have a look at this review, perhaps.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/psychic-awakening-ii-faith-and-fury-review-part-3-black-templars/

 

Although they are pretty honest that much of our current power isderived from being able to use IF AND BT rules

Edited November 19, 2019 by JAG Templar

[Acebaur]

1.  Doctrine, yes it it weaker than some others, but we have the ability to grant it to a unit in our army every turn, for free. Also 30 attacks will always yield (on avg) the same number of auto wounds, which is basically 5. That's nothing to sneeze at no matter who you are fighting. And 30 attacks is actually pretty easy to get with our army. 10 Crusaders gets it in the first round of combat. We have a litany that gives +1 attack. 

 

2. Yes, getting a litany off on a deep striking unit does require outside the box thinking. But a jump pack or biker chaplain can get it done. There are still other things to use those litanies on, like for example protecting an important unit on turn one from enemy fire. 

 

3. Not sure what you mean here. The other chapters are getting a litany that they can take instead of one from the chart in C:SM. They don't get a free litany to use in battle. It is still Litanies of Hate, plus whatever one they choose. (unless they upgrade to the new MoS)

 

4. I think you underestimate the value of having AP-1 on bolters or heavy weapons. Having this ability means that we don't have to rush to the assault doctrine on turn 3 if it's not advantageous to do it. It may be enough to have it on a key unit until later in the game. 

 

5. You're grasping at straws here man. Having re-rolls is never pointless. And yes Grim needs a transport but his Unmatched Zeal works all the time and depending on how you deploy him his ability to nullify psykers is powerful.  Helbrecht has a fantastic ability to help ensure Deep strike charges without having to worry about litanies. The champion only got better. He's a pure beat stick that basically murders anything he touches.

 

6. LRC's got a definite boost for us. Being able to give them a 4++ and a 5+FNP for turn one shooting is really really strong. You can keep that 5+ FNP on them as they set up for a charge as well. Which also is much easier thanks to the strat that lets us advance and shoot and charge.  As for the leaving combat strat, it's a dice game man, rolling 1's is always possible and that's just how it is. Yeah Night lords is better but we also got a lot more new stuff than they did, both here and in C:SM

 

7. Crusader squads I think are much more in line with how they really should be played now. Before they had become what we were in 5th, an army that wanted to be CC but was really much better at shooting

[Hymnblade]

Canticle of Hate is an aura that doesn't need the target to be on the board, and a chaplain on a bike can move+advance 20" guaranteed. That means you can put a drop pod up to 26" from the edge of your deployment zone on turn 1 and still get the buff, and then charge another 9" reliably (~85%, better than a 2+ save on a d6), so enemy units up to 35" away are in danger. That goes up to 38" or 41" if you use one or both of the aura-expanding effects. This seems pretty good for a turn 1 threat range.

 

If you want to send them further than that, or if you just don't want to rush a Chaplain out front of everybody else, Helbrecht or another character with the +1 advance/charge warlord trait still gives you a ~72% chance of making a 9" charge, and then you can spend 1CP to get the 6" consolidate effect of Canticle. Overall, we are the best chapter at charging out of Deep Strike.

 

I agree that the order-of-operations issues with Litanies are dumb and annoying, but that was already the case before PA2, and the supplement could not have fixed it except by completely rewriting how Litanies work.

 

Supposedly, PA2 contains no points changes for anything, which means that Initiates staying at 13 may not be a deliberate choice so much as a 'to avoid confusion, let's not publish points adjustments in two different books a month apart'. Don't get too upset about this yet.

[Acebaur]

Have a look at this review, perhaps.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/psychic-awakening-ii-faith-and-fury-review-part-3-black-templars/

 

Although they are pretty honest that much of our current power isderived from being able to use IF AND BT rules

 

I wouldn't go by them. Based on the leaked images and videos, they have several things completely wrong. 

[JAG Templar]

 

 

Have a look at this review, perhaps.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/psychic-awakening-ii-faith-and-fury-review-part-3-black-templars/

 

Although they are pretty honest that much of our current power isderived from being able to use IF AND BT rules

I wouldn't go by them. Based on the leaked images and videos, they have several things completely wrong.

Ok, good to know. Thanks for the heads up.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I had a very similar reaction to the OP when I first heard our rules. But meditating on them in my off time has lead me to a few very interesting bits of information.

 

1: We have access to all IF warlord traits. Now, us keeping the chapter doctrine is up for debate, but us keeping access to Special Issue war gear and strats is not. That means that we can spend 1 CP to give a non named character an additional WT. That is a chunky list to draw on. Keep it in the back of your mind as you read on.

 

Now. Our synergies do require that we start on the board for the most part. But consider the following:

 

Start Grimaldus and a Lieutenant with the 4+ invuln relic on the board. put a LRC with tasty units to one side of him, and a 20 man crusader squad to the other. In a line in front of him, right on the board edge, put 10 vanguard vets with storm shields and power sword, relic sword on the leader. Toss in a chaplain on bike wearing the crusader helm and rocking the master of sanctity upgrade, put him wherever is convenient. Give the chaplain the rerolls litanies WT if you really want.

 

Turn 1, Grimaldus chants the litany to give the vanguards +1 attack. he then chants the litany to give the units around him a 5+ FNP (or just one if it's targetted, I haven't been able to pin down which). The chaplain biker rolls to get the +2 to charges litany off, then rolls to give the vanguard exploding 6s (or reroll hits). The Crusader helm gives the vanguard assault doctrine, making their weapons -4 AP and giving them our buff. vanguard moves 12, advances 1d6. The chaplains moves 14 and advances 6 up beside them. Everything else trundles up behind them at a more measured pace. Pop the 4+ relic if you feel you must.

 

Charge phase comes, pop the strat to allow the vanguards to charge with the bonus. They crash into the front lines and you then pop the +1 strat to give them 6 to pile in and consolidate.

 

Vanguard piles in jumping over the screen to be behind the enemy models as long as they aren't in double rows. Vanguard butchers them with their mega buffs, then consolidates 6 into the next line.

 

Now you decide if you want your stormshield vanguard to wound the second enemy on 6+ saves when they are forced to attack them in the fight phase. If so, spend another CP, if not, hang where you are and let your stormshields do their job.

 

Next round, whatever you piled into might not be able to pile out if you spend 2+ CP to keep them in, meaning your vanguard keeps them stuck in place. Maybe some more of them die, but if there are enough left to still be strong, you can butcher another unit in your opponents' turn and be freed up for yours while the rest of your army comes in behind you.

 

This is just one way to nova out CP and completely break the rules of BT that we've been playing under. You can do a similar alpha strike with drop pods and the WL trait, or drop pods and the chaplain on bike using the +2 litany. This costs more points in your list but is much less CP heavy, and can still abuse the 6 inch pile in and consolidate to cleave through screens. 

 

in short, there is synergy there, but you have to play to it. we can stack a lot of buffs in odd ways to do things that used to be impossible. You have the ability to layer enough buffs on that LRC to deliver him to the frontlines in time to unleash your second wave of shock and awe directly into their primary gun units, which your first wave consolidated into to hold them steady for a round. And even that is just me being fluffy with units I don't need.

[Ipsen]

Think there was a reddit post where QA responded saying BT can't use the IF supplement, so it will probs get patched.

[Medjugorje]

I think so too.

[The_real_Alpharius]

I've got a Primaris Successor chapter and have previously played with Raven guard rules. However I do love the law and flavour of BT and was hoping in these rules that crusader squads would be able to have intercessors or intercessors get an option for chainswords etc. I can see a veteran intercessors squad with the sergeant having a thunder hammer, supported by a chaplain in a impulsor being fairly decent. However squad size sucks and will easily be whittled down, nice as it is to have potentially 5 attacks on the charge. 

 

Seems like BT are more stuck using old marines for the veteran vanguard etc than Primaris?

[Medjugorje]

there are possibilites for all kind of models we can use (except sourcerer^^)

[MarshalMittermeier]

i will not answer to specific questions but to specific misconceptions as i see them.

1. our main power is litanies: FALSE: the main power is the +1 advance and charge warlord trait and the advance and charge stratagem as well as the powerful options for shutting down psychic abilities. the litanies are fine, but +1 advance and charge distance combined with advance-then-charge is BONKERS.

 

2. synergy: deepstriking/transported units can totaly use the synergy. a black templar unit has a threat range of 8"+3d6 (6+ plus 1d6+1 advance, plus 2d6+1 charge). deepstrike/transport units can use that. canticle of hate is just icing on the cake, as is the BT chapter tactic. Reivers, Assault Squads, Vanguards can get to close combat SO DAMN FAST. the only problem is, the advance-then-charge stratagem needs to be spammed.

 

3. another approach i have heard is, instead of taking a fast unit and make it superfast, instead take a superkilly slow unit and use the stratagems to amplify its speed (assault terminators/centurions). a 10-man assault terminator squad under the warlord trait and the stratagem can have a threat range of 7" +3d6. average 17 inches, max 25!!!. remember, that is without canticle of hate. apparently they were given Usain Bolt geneseed.

 

in general, the new BT codex uses the ONLY SUCCESSFUL CLOSE COMBAT RECIPE IN 40K: raw speed/threat range. the idea is that if you need to  get close to charge the next turn, shooty armies win, and all the close combat buffs you can give are worthless. but if you charge from ludicrous distances, then it is the same because even though in the fluff the other guy is ranged, in-game your threat ranges arent that different.

 

this is why the codex will work in supporting a cc playstyle. the actual power level will take time to be seen but the theory seems great.

Edited November 19, 2019 by MarshalMittermeier

[Hymnblade]

 

Seems like BT are more stuck using old marines for the veteran vanguard etc than Primaris?

There's plenty of room to use Primaris in a BT force, but yes, it seems like an army of exclusively Primaris can't make full use of our strengths. I mean, look at how many of our best combos start with "take a Jump Pack chaplain..." or "put Helbrecht in a drop pod with..."

[Marshal Arthur]

 

 

Seems like BT are more stuck using old marines for the veteran vanguard etc than Primaris?

There's plenty of room to use Primaris in a BT force, but yes, it seems like an army of exclusively Primaris can't make full use of our strengths. I mean, look at how many of our best combos start with "take a Jump Pack chaplain..." or "put Helbrecht in a drop pod with..."

 

That's not a problem unique to us at least. Salamanders, White Scars, and Imperial Fists have a hard time making full use of their abilities with pure Primaris.

[Palmu]

On the surface it might seem that the rules we got tell you to play dudes on foot or in transports, with all the focus on litanies and stuff that happens in the movement phase etc, but in reality we're heavily incentivized to play deep strikers, and are the best SM chapter to play those. This is a new era, the old ways will have to wait until at least 9th edition

 

This was already apparent when the SM codex came out with Canticle of Hate. At the time, this was a gimmick strat because banking your strategy on something that fails 1/9 times is just asking to get rekt, but this codex update changed everything.

 

Not only did we get a relic that nigh-guarantees Canticle activating (Breviary), because failing to roll a single +3 with 3 dice (potential re-roll included) is in the range of 1.5%, we ALSO gained a Warlord Trait that boosts charge ranges, the bonus to Advance is a neat but basically meaningless bonus.

 

AND this Warlord Trait is also on our best melee-buffing character, who ALSO loves going into drop-pods.

 

On top of this, we gained a few extremely potent close combat stratagems that, most importantly Tenacious Assault which combimed with our multiple ways of increasing Pile On and Consolidate distances, makes taking hostages in close combat viable once more.

 

And finally, and this is very controversial right now...Scouts. We gained one of the most powerful combat abilities in the game, re-rolling to wound. Only, it's for Scouts...But so what? An unit of 10 Neophytes doesn't fall far from the offensive power of 10 Initiates, and those Neophytes can start the game 9" from the enemy, denying them board space and securing us positions where we can land deepstrike units or drop-pods.

 

I firmly believe that the future of Templars in 8th edition going forward will be massed amounts of Concealed Position units and Deep Strikers attacking the enemy in waves from the very first turn onwards.

[Marshal Arthur]

While some of our rules are a little conflicting and perhaps not as obviously powerful as other supplements I am overall excited to try them. For offensive power no one does drop pod assaults better than us, and while LRCs aren't competitive, they're certainly more viable than they were before (at least for casual games). I'm personally hoping our crusader squads get a point cut in Chapter Approved and if they do I think two big crusader blobs with Grimaldus and the 5+++ buff on one could be pretty good, especially with the cenobytes nearby. Pop the shroud and you have a sizeable obsec horde with a 3+/4++/5++ and 4+ against mortal wounds. It may not be super killy but will hold objectives well and draw the enemy's fire on turn one allowing your more expensive units to do their work. I think a proper drop pod assault combined with several units of scouts and other objective holders could work. You trap your opponent in his/her deployment zone and destroy the biggest threats with turn one charges while your scouts and other troops sit on objectives.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Marshal Arthur

[Acebaur]

On the surface it might seem that the rules we got tell you to play dudes on foot or in transports, with all the focus on litanies and stuff that happens in the movement phase etc, but in reality we're heavily incentivized to play deep strikers, and are the best SM chapter to play those. This is a new era, the old ways will have to wait until at least 9th edition

 

This was already apparent when the SM codex came out with Canticle of Hate. At the time, this was a gimmick strat because banking your strategy on something that fails 1/9 times is just asking to get rekt, but this codex update changed everything.

 

Not only did we get a relic that nigh-guarantees Canticle activating (Breviary), because failing to roll a single +3 with 3 dice (potential re-roll included) is in the range of 1.5%, we ALSO gained a Warlord Trait that boosts charge ranges, the bonus to Advance is a neat but basically meaningless bonus.

 

AND this Warlord Trait is also on our best melee-buffing character, who ALSO loves going into drop-pods.

 

On top of this, we gained a few extremely potent close combat stratagems that, most importantly Tenacious Assault which combimed with our multiple ways of increasing Pile On and Consolidate distances, makes taking hostages in close combat viable once more.

 

And finally, and this is very controversial right now...Scouts. We gained one of the most powerful combat abilities in the game, re-rolling to wound. Only, it's for Scouts...But so what? An unit of 10 Neophytes doesn't fall far from the offensive power of 10 Initiates, and those Neophytes can start the game 9" from the enemy, denying them board space and securing us positions where we can land deepstrike units or drop-pods.

 

I firmly believe that the future of Templars in 8th edition going forward will be massed amounts of Concealed Position units and Deep Strikers attacking the enemy in waves from the very first turn onwards.

 

I think the scouts thing is mainly an issue with the fluff. For years we didn't have scout squads because our neophytes were trained one on one in a Knight/Squire situation.  Then we got rolled and the changed some of the fluff so now we can have actual squads of them. That's tough to swallow for a lot of us and even though they are a great utility unit, it's hard to put them on the table and not feel weird about it. 

[Palmu]

I'm aware, that's why it's controversial. But there are no other actual options but to find a bright side in bad situations. Giving up is not an option, after all

 

Plus I'm a power-hungry melee maniac and will take whatever I'm handed as long as it allows me to humiliate shooty armies.

 

Visually scouts are unappealing though. Which is why I've always played them with helmetless marine models, hah.

[Hymnblade]

It's OK, the kids can go infiltrating as long as there are some Incursors or an Invictor or a Phobos HQ to chaperone. They'll grow out of their dishonorable sneaking phase. Or maybe they're not sneaking! They're, uh, questing. Yeah, that's it, they were out questing before the battle. You know, a classic knightly activity.

[Palmu]

Put your glasses back on and face the truth! They absolutely were sneaking.

 

But all can be forgiven as long as they charge as soon as they're spotted.

[Medjugorje]

i will not answer to specific questions but to specific misconceptions as i see them.

1. our main power is litanies: FALSE: the main power is the +1 advance and charge warlord trait and the advance and charge stratagem as well as the powerful options for shutting down psychic abilities. the litanies are fine, but +1 advance and charge distance combined with advance-then-charge is BONKERS.

 

2. synergy: deepstriking/transported units can totaly use the synergy. a black templar unit has a threat range of 8"+3d6 (6+ plus 1d6+1 advance, plus 2d6+1 charge). deepstrike/transport units can use that. canticle of hate is just icing on the cake, as is the BT chapter tactic. Reivers, Assault Squads, Vanguards can get to close combat SO DAMN FAST. the only problem is, the advance-then-charge stratagem needs to be spammed.

 

3. another approach i have heard is, instead of taking a fast unit and make it superfast, instead take a superkilly slow unit and use the stratagems to amplify its speed (assault terminators/centurions). a 10-man assault terminator squad under the warlord trait and the stratagem can have a threat range of 7" +3d6. average 17 inches, max 25!!!. remember, that is without canticle of hate. apparently they were given Usain Bolt geneseed.

 

in general, the new BT codex uses the ONLY SUCCESSFUL CLOSE COMBAT RECIPE IN 40K: raw speed/threat range. the idea is that if you need to  get close to charge the next turn, shooty armies win, and all the close combat buffs you can give are worthless. but if you charge from ludicrous distances, then it is the same because even though in the fluff the other guy is ranged, in-game your threat ranges arent that different.

 

this is why the codex will work in supporting a cc playstyle. the actual power level will take time to be seen but the theory seems great.

1. yes. Our best things in the Supplement are our Stratagems and this WL-Trait ; 4++ Relic; Crusader Helmet/Anciant Breviary

 

2. so you need one or 2 unit which hit ard in melee and you can stack all Stratagems on.  The rest must be fire support.

 

3. thats true. And thats why I slowly change my mind in terms of crusader helmet and ancient breviary - I think its more important to get a lithany safe then more potential for output

[JimVandy85]

Have a look at this review, perhaps.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/psychic-awakening-ii-faith-and-fury-review-part-3-black-templars/

 

Although they are pretty honest that much of our current power isderived from being able to use IF AND BT rules

What is the consensus on this currently? Do we get the imperial fists doctrine as well as our own?

[Marshal Arthur]

I think the consensus is we're not supposed to and it will be FAQed a couple weeks after Faith and Fury is released. GW even said in an email to a player that Templars must use the Faith and Fury campaign book for their rules, not the Imperial Fists supplement. That said there is currently no official ruling preventing us from using both, and in fact the wording indicates we can as an Imperial Fist successor chapter.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I wont use it unless the FAQ comes out staying that we are supposed to.

Using this isnt even that guy territory, its trying very hard to be that guy.