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How would you change Guilliman?


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#1
emperorpants

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On the tabletop I mean.  If you think he is great as is, awesome!  This thread is for suggestions from people who think he might be a little bit lacking currently.  Personally, I think he is overcosted for what he does.  He doesn't add anything special that you can't get for cheaper elsewhere.  Calgar plus an Lt. is almost always superior.  I have two possible changes:

 

1) Keep his stats and abilities as is, but change him to an HQ choice that fills two slots, and drop his points cost by 15 -20.  I feel this would make him a valuable choice and would make the choice between him and Calgar plus a Lt. actually a decision you might have to think about a bit, as you would still save points with the Calgar combo and you might not need Gman's melee in some battles, and you would still get adept of the codex with Calgar.

 

2) Keep his stats and points the same, and keep him in the LOW slot, but give him a new ability.  I was thinking of an ability where he essentially gives  you a free re-roll once per battle round as a way to represent his strategic ability.  This would still be usable in the same phase that you did a command re-roll, just obviously not on the same dice roll.

 

Just some thoughts on possible ways to change Gman to make him more relevant/special.  Thoughts?  Also, what would you do to change him if you think he needs a change?

 

 


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#2
Aothaine

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I would give him a beard. A wild flowing mane. Some fangs. Wait... that is not Guilliman! That is Russ! Yes. I would make him be Russ instead!

 

 

I think they just need to un-nerf him. He is a damned primarch. Let him be op. There are enough anti-character options out there now that dealing with him isn't as difficult as it was at the start of 8th ed. Let him reroll all to hit and to wound rolls. Dude is a living god of war and strategic genius. He should have the rules to back that up.


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#3
emperorpants

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I would give him a beard. A wild flowing mane. Some fangs. Wait... that is not Guilliman! That is Russ! Yes. I would make him be Russ instead!

 

 

I think they just need to un-nerf him. He is a damned primarch. Let him be op. There are enough anti-character options out there now that dealing with him isn't as difficult as it was at the start of 8th ed. Let him reroll all to hit and to wound rolls. Dude is a living god of war and strategic genius. He should have the rules to back that up.

Yeah, I agree.  At first I thought the nerf was justified, but as other things came out it became apparent that the nerf wasn't needed.  However, I don't see that ever happening sadly.  



#4
Frater Cornelius

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Nah. I think him having lost his full wound re-rolls is better for the health of the faction. Personally, I would prefer him dropping down to 300-320-ish, or keep him as he is right now and make him a HQ, so that it is easier to build multiple detachments him.

 

The logic of the above suggestions is to bring him in line with the utility and convience of Calgar + Lt. While Guilliman still offers superior melee punch and better support of rapid forward armies, Calgar + Lt offers an indirect net-gain in CP because that combo fills out 2 HQ slots, making it easier to fill two ballations, while also offering 81 extra points and still very potent melee punch.


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#5
Cruor Vault

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I'd keep him as a LoW, mostly so he doesn't compete with Calgar for HQ choices.

 

I'd totally remove his re-roll aura for UTRAMARINES and drop his cost down to the 300pt range.

 

I would give him the ability to nominate an ULTRAMARINES unit at the start of the movement phase to have their doctrine overwritten with one of your choice. 

 

Basically granting a free instance of the 'Squad Doctrines' Stratagem, but not limited to INFANTRY or BIKES.

 

This should help his value scale properly in different game sizes without causing catastrophic imbalance like his re-roll wounds aura did with Fire Raptors.


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#6
Subtleknife

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I would potentially do this (but not all together)
A. Drop his points
B. Move him to HQ and let him ride in transports and drop pods.
C. Allow him to re roll wound of 1, 2 and maybe 3.
D. Bring back his sweep ability with the sword.
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#7
Aothaine

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Nah. I think him having lost his full wound re-rolls is better for the health of the faction. Personally, I would prefer him dropping down to 300-320-ish, or keep him as he is right now and make him a HQ, so that it is easier to build multiple detachments him.

 

The logic of the above suggestions is to bring him in line with the utility and convience of Calgar + Lt. While Guilliman still offers superior melee punch and better support of rapid forward armies, Calgar + Lt offers an indirect net-gain in CP because that combo fills out 2 HQ slots, making it easier to fill two ballations, while also offering 81 extra points and still very potent melee punch.

 

But the thing is he is way more experienced than Calgar. The dude was and is now again running the entire imperium. The scale and mind power this takes is something that would break Calgar. I don't see taking him down to Calgar's level as a good thing at all.

 

I'd keep him as a LoW, mostly so he doesn't compete with Calgar for HQ choices.

 

I'd totally remove his re-roll aura for UTRAMARINES and drop his cost down to the 300pt range.

 

I would give him the ability to nominate an ULTRAMARINES unit at the start of the movement phase to have their doctrine overwritten with one of your choice. 

 

Basically granting a free instance of the 'Squad Doctrines' Stratagem, but not limited to INFANTRY or BIKES.

 

This should help his value scale properly in different game sizes without causing catastrophic imbalance like his re-roll wounds aura did with Fire Raptors.

 

Totally agree with him staying LoW. I like the ability you stated as well, but I would not remove his reroll aura at all. If you are close to him and in that aura.. you are getting courage and guidance from him. It is important. We shouldn't ever dumb down or nerf primarchs. These guys are the BIG BOYs.

 

Maybe put a limit on how you can use him. I remember back in the day they had units you could not use unless your army was over a certain point threshold. So just say you cannot use Guilliman unless your army is at least 1750 points. I seriously doubt that you would see Guilliamn on a patrol mission or any minor engagements. He will be guiding the boys in blue from the command center on the front line. Maybe that is just my image of the primarchs and it is most likely different than most other's opinions for sure. But dumbing these legends down is a really bad move imho.


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#8
Black Blow Fly

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I would give him a long sharp pointy stick to poke trolles.
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#9
The Wolfguard

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I'd definitely wish he could ride in a transport, with the work I'm doing on honour guard and Victrix guard I'd love to see him charge out of a repulsor with 6 of them backing him up, even if it's a hella amount of points and hella inefficient it would be very cool! 

 

So maybe this wouldn't be the 'best' way to change him but, rule of cool?!


"Two things to note there, Sergeant. One is that there is no such thing as a minor detail. Information is victory. One cannot and should not dismiss any data until one is in a position to evaluate its' significance, and that only comes with hindsight. So all detail is important until circumstances render it redundant."

- Primarch Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines.

 

 


#10
Aothaine

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I'd definitely wish he could ride in a transport, with the work I'm doing on honour guard and Victrix guard I'd love to see him charge out of a repulsor with 6 of them backing him up, even if it's a hella amount of points and hella inefficient it would be very cool! 

 

So maybe this wouldn't be the 'best' way to change him but, rule of cool?!

 

Well.. it would be 5 guard not 6 biggrin.png Details. But it would be cool for sure! Maybe Bobby G can ride on top of the repulsor? Like this perhaps?

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=LeVEbbheUck

 

 

Edit: I am a fool! I ws thinking Impulsor not Repulsor. My bad Wolfguard lol!


Edited by Aothaine, 20 November 2019 - 11:21 PM.


#11
The Wolfguard

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Mmmm, I'd definitely do 6 Victrix and Guilliman in a regular Repulsor (up to 10 transport right?) and if G-man takes up 3 slots or something that would work? Or have I missed something silly? I don't have any executioners and since I'd wanna use characters too I don't have plans on any yet! 

 

And I feel like Guilliman probably does something like that whilst following behind all the tanks that his infantry is in! Great clip ahaha


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"Two things to note there, Sergeant. One is that there is no such thing as a minor detail. Information is victory. One cannot and should not dismiss any data until one is in a position to evaluate its' significance, and that only comes with hindsight. So all detail is important until circumstances render it redundant."

- Primarch Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines.

 

 


#12
emperorpants

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I would give him a long sharp pointy stick to poke trolles.

What do you mean?  



#13
The_son_of_Dorn

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Agreed with OP for primarchs. They are meant to be thanos sized superman strength wrecking machines.

Only thing that should stand against the. Is deamon princes, greater deamons or a one on one with nothing less than a hive ship!

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#14
Ishagu

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300 points and move him to HQ.

His slot is restrictive enough, not to mention all the downsides with not being infantry.

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#15
Aothaine

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300 points and move him to HQ.

His slot is restrictive enough, not to mention all the downsides with not being infantry.

 

Lol! I forgot he is not infantry.... he is a MONSTER! So fitting. :D 



#16
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If he could ride in a transport 3 slots seem fair. I think he’s reasonably costed for his points.
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#17
Frater Cornelius

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I'd keep him as a LoW, mostly so he doesn't compete with Calgar for HQ choices.

I'd totally remove his re-roll aura for UTRAMARINES and drop his cost down to the 300pt range.

I would give him the ability to nominate an ULTRAMARINES unit at the start of the movement phase to have their doctrine overwritten with one of your choice.

Basically granting a free instance of the 'Squad Doctrines' Stratagem, but not limited to INFANTRY or BIKES.

This should help his value scale properly in different game sizes without causing catastrophic imbalance like his re-roll wounds aura did with Fire Raptors.

I like how you want to move away from re-rolls. In that case, let's dig further. Remove the UM aura and do the one (or all) following:

1. Increase the amount of recoverable CP per turn from 1 to 2. Alternatively, whenever you recover 1 CP, gain D3 CP instead. This can be used once per game turn and is not affected by the CP limit.

2. At the start of your movement phase, choose one UM unit and give them a doctrine of your choice IN ADDITION to the one that is active.

3. Instead of having a fixed warlord trait, pick two traits from either the UM traits or the codex traits. In either case, I would give him one variable trait as opposed to a fixed one.

4. Once per game, you can use a Stratagem twice per phase. It can't affect the same unit twice per phase.

5. Pick a FOC slot (fast attack, elite, hq or heavy support). All units in that slot will gain Defenders of Humanity rule.

6. If Guilliman is your warlord, other HQ may use their abilities as if they were the warlord (at the present, this only applies to Calgar, but there may be more in future).

I tried to emphasise his tactical awesomeness as opposed to his combat prowess.

You could also include negatives to make it a high risk high reward situation:

1. If Guilliman falls and doesn't stand back up, all UM units must take a Leadership check. Here things vary. You can do something like 2D6-2 or D6-X, where X is the number if wounds Guilliman lost this phase. Something that matters. Or your army suffers a permanent -3Ld.

2. Chaos triggers DtFE on a 5+ when facing an army with Guilliman (because they extra hate him).

3. If Guilliman falls and doesn't get up, leave a marker where he died. If the opponent gets within 3" of the center of the marker before you do, they gain D3 victory points.

You can give him something like 2 rules and 1 disadvantage from the list above on top him Lord Commander ability, as well as a variable trait. Depending on how much he gets, he costs anywhere between 300 and 400. He will also remain LoW.

Edited by Frater Cornelius, 21 November 2019 - 07:00 AM.

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#18
Emicus

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Easy: drop points
Medium: become hq
Wishlist: use 1 stratagem free per turn while he lives

#19
emperorpants

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Easy: drop points
Medium: become hq
Wishlist: use 1 stratagem free per turn while he lives


I like the one strat for free idea, however I'd maybe limit it to 1cp strats and have higher cp strats get reduced in cost by one if you use it on one of them.
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#20
emperorpants

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I'd keep him as a LoW, mostly so he doesn't compete with Calgar for HQ choices.
I'd totally remove his re-roll aura for UTRAMARINES and drop his cost down to the 300pt range.
I would give him the ability to nominate an ULTRAMARINES unit at the start of the movement phase to have their doctrine overwritten with one of your choice.
Basically granting a free instance of the 'Squad Doctrines' Stratagem, but not limited to INFANTRY or BIKES.
This should help his value scale properly in different game sizes without causing catastrophic imbalance like his re-roll wounds aura did with Fire Raptors.

I like how you want to move away from re-rolls. In that case, let's dig further. Remove the UM aura and do the one (or all) following:
1. Increase the amount of recoverable CP per turn from 1 to 2. Alternatively, whenever you recover 1 CP, gain D3 CP instead. This can be used once per game turn and is not affected by the CP limit.
2. At the start of your movement phase, choose one UM unit and give them a doctrine of your choice IN ADDITION to the one that is active.
3. Instead of having a fixed warlord trait, pick two traits from either the UM traits or the codex traits. In either case, I would give him one variable trait as opposed to a fixed one.
4. Once per game, you can use a Stratagem twice per phase. It can't affect the same unit twice per phase.
5. Pick a FOC slot (fast attack, elite, hq or heavy support). All units in that slot will gain Defenders of Humanity rule.
6. If Guilliman is your warlord, other HQ may use their abilities as if they were the warlord (at the present, this only applies to Calgar, but there may be more in future).
I tried to emphasise his tactical awesomeness as opposed to his combat prowess.
You could also include negatives to make it a high risk high reward situation:
1. If Guilliman falls and doesn't stand back up, all UM units must take a Leadership check. Here things vary. You can do something like 2D6-2 or D6-X, where X is the number if wounds Guilliman lost this phase. Something that matters. Or your army suffers a permanent -3Ld.
2. Chaos triggers DtFE on a 5+ when facing an army with Guilliman (because they extra hate him).
3. If Guilliman falls and doesn't get up, leave a marker where he died. If the opponent gets within 3" of the center of the marker before you do, they gain D3 victory points.
You can give him something like 2 rules and 1 disadvantage from the list above on top him Lord Commander ability, as well as a variable trait. Depending on how much he gets, he costs anywhere between 300 and 400. He will also remain LoW.

A lot of these sound Awesome! I don't think Gman would need any built in disadvantages though, there are enough of those that go with being a low and lacking infantry keyword, like no healing.

#21
emperorpants

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I would potentially do this (but not all together)
A. Drop his points
B. Move him to HQ and let him ride in transports and drop pods.
C. Allow him to re roll wound of 1, 2 and maybe 3.
D. Bring back his sweep ability with the sword.


Yeah, I like the idea of letting Gman re roll 1s, 2s, and maybe 3s. At least for melee. To me, the Emperor's sword needs to feel a bit more impactful. I mean, it's the Emperor's sword! I'm not saying it's bad, it's not. It's great! I just don't like the idea of it wounding on 4s and only re rolling 1s. Makes it seem....i don't know...less than it should...if you know what I'm trying to say.

#22
Black Blow Fly

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It’s ludicrous to suggest buffs seeing all the great buffs SM have received.
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#23
emperorpants

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It’s ludicrous to suggest buffs seeing all the great buffs SM have received.


Great! Your opinion is noted. Now kindly back off, stop derailing the thread, and start acting like an adult. That means no more petty digs at people who disagree with you. Cuz guess what? Plenty of people disagree with you. This thread is for people who think Gman could use some help and to discuss what that help might look like. I made it very clear in the opening post that was what the thread was about. Either contribute in a constructive and respectful way or leave. Don't like it, don't read the thread. It's that simple. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can and will.

One last thing. I'll say it again, if you don't like me, take it up with me in pms. Be mature about it, instead of making snide little comments in my threads.
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#24
Subtleknife

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It’s ludicrous to suggest buffs seeing all the great buffs SM have received.

Great! Your opinion is noted. Now kindly back off, stop derailing the thread...snip....

Here here completely agree.

#25
Frater Cornelius

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Guys, chill. No one is requesting anything. This is just a simple thought exercise. Ain't no harm in letting the imagination fly. At the end of the day, we're stuck with what we have, and what we have is good. So grab a cup of your chosen beverage, kick back and enjoy the ideas others are presenting. Ain't no one asking for more ;)


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