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Some more noob questions


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#1
Prot

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So I found a local guy who has a new pack of Finecast Dark Reapers on the shelf. I hate finecast but I feel like my Wraith army will be slowish and perhaps lacking in ranged shooting. Are these guys still a staple? Are the a bad idea for my theme? I here they are not popular anymore just because of double firing Thunderfire cannons.

Also Wraithknights. I know they are viewed as terrible. As mentioned in my fairly competitive environment I can’t get too goofy with fun units but I’d love to paint this model as a cuter piece for a Wraith style army. Can he be configured for any decent role in such a list?

Thanks for any suggestions.

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#2
Captain_Krash

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I'll try and help on the Wraithknight. Sword and Shield seems to be the best load out for it. As it will get an invul save which is sorely lacking on the awesome model. 

 

That and with a wraith army you need to move up close and personal to do anything of note. So moving the Knight up in support of your other units will give your opponent some unit saturation that he needs to focus on. It can do well vs anything in CC even imperial knights (As long at it can get there) and don't forget about it's shoulder mounted guns.

 

Krash


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#3
Prot

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Thanks. I guess that's the build I would start with if I can get my hands on one of these models. I truly like the look of it though. 


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#4
Karhedron

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Dark Reapers are definitely still a staple, it is hard to go wrong with them and I never leave the Dome of Crystal Seers without at least 1 squad. msn-wink.gif Remember that even Wraith-heavy armies like Iyanden normally bring some living troops to the battle with them and Dark Reapers are actually quite fluffy in this regard. You can imagine the Wraith units storming forward to weather the storm and protect their living comrades while the squishier units hang back and provide long-ranged covering fire.

Wraithknights are sadly underwhelming. GW seems to have consigned them to some sort of purgatory for being over-powered in 7th edition. If you do want one, I would favour Suncannon and Shield. The loadout is pretty cheap and it is shootier than the sword version. 90% of the time you will want to use your feet in melee. The sword is really only useful against other LOWs.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#5
Prot

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Thanks for the input. I'm having trouble getting information. So I appreciate the advice. (My one buddy who does play Eldar is way on the other side of the pond in the UK) Eldar are not that popular here at all.. .except the flyers which I've faced in tournaments.

 

So I will pick up some reapers for sure. Thanks.

 

I'm having trouble filling out the rest of the army. I think I have to go multiple squads of Wraiths... in Serpents. But for troops... I guess Guardians and Dire Avengers galore in a dual Battalion?


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#6
battle captain corpus

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Wraith units with Spiritseers in Serpents seems to be the insurance policy units I am finding. It's apparently a toss up between Wraithblades with swords or traditional Wraithguard with D guns. Aesthetically I LOVE the Wraithblades with axes and shields and maybe I will get them just to "have".

 

As for troops, I'm going BIG with 2 blobs of 20 Guardians jogging up the table with 2 x 5 man squads of Dire Avengers to play interference and add a little more punch. Rangers for Alaitoc as we all know are both fluffy and a little naughty rules wise too!

 

BCC


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#7
Karhedron

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Personally I tend to run a mix of Dire Avengers and Rangers as both have longer range than Guardians. This is vital for allowing my squishy T3 elves to hang back a bit rather than getting shredded. Back in 2nd edition, Shurican catapults were better than Storm bolters and I loved my Guardians. Then Gav Thorpe turned them into machine pistols in 3rd edition and Guardians have struggled to find a role ever since. Now Eldar have resorted to putting their citizen militia in tin-foil armour, giving them a short-ranged gun and hurling them down the webway at their opponents. No wonder Eldar are a dying race. tongue.png

If you are running Wave Serpents, I really enjoy using Wraithguard with D-Scythes. They auto-hit meaning you can Advance and still fire at full effect which largely compensates for the shorter range in my experience. It also gives them a fearsome overwatch capability.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#8
Captain Coolpants

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With the wraithknight, unless you're going against other LoW or vehicle heavy army, you are better off with suncannon and shield.
Stomps do more to squads and light vehicles, and your sun cannon is great at killing primaris because of D2.


For troops, Id honesty go rangers. Kinda lame, but don't need a transport to stay safe and have long range.

And for the wraith guard. I love the look of axe and shield. But D-scythes are usually my go-to. Not as good now since Flamer templates are no longer a thing (loved when I could angle multiple hits on units and vehicles with a single squad)
But fun to blow up a shooty squad right next to an opponents CC squad, and said CC squad run away or just mow down half of them if they charge you.

Edited by Captain Coolpants, 26 November 2019 - 09:32 PM.

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#9
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I really appreciate the feedback guys. I’ve been taking this information and going back to the rulebooks for ideas, and taking some of what my buddy abroad has offered me.

I know I’m not creating anything really competitive....or unique here but at the same time I’m in a pretty tough meta and I don’t want to be conceding in T2 all the time either. Lol

I still love the aesthetics of Wraith constructs. So it will hav3 a ‘narrative’ of the new storyline to honour the dead, and rise anew ....that kind of stuff. ( cheesy I know)

Playstyle I’ve decided ( with everyone’s help) to go with a mobile (3-4 units?) of wraiths in Serpents.

I’ve weighed a lot of what you guys are saying for loadout.... right now I’m thinking one squad of blades. One squad of d cannons. And an axe shield unit to try to tarp it nasties. I don’t know what to do for the fourth unit. The flamer ( scythes ?) sound okay but 1 damage just seems so incredibly lethargic in today’s super Killy Edition. Thoughts on that?

Maybe it’s a bad idea to mix them up so much? Perhaps a bunch of cheap blade units would be most efficient leaving the shooting to the rest of the army?

My thinking on the cannon wraiths is with Expert Artisans, combined with reroll 1’s to wound....wow that could be very destructive without leaning too heavily on the psychic phase. Bad idea? Anyone try this combo?

Support elements.... I picked up 2 spirit seers, and as you may know from my other thread, I have a Fraser on bike. No idea about the 4th HQ.

Next up I want to Force in the two, unbuilt Wraithlords for aesthetic reasons. I don’t want to mess up their build.... any advice for this ?

I also just bought a box of Reapers. I can’t believe the local store had a finecast box on the shelf...I thought it was a sign so I grabbed it!

Finally troops. I like the Dire Avengers.,, probably two squads. My friend is selling me a squad of guardians and a squad of rangers. Basic stuff.

Unknown stuff. In my friends collection there is a Night Spinner, and I can buy a second, new kit, later.
Unknown 2.... I have a lead on a local artillery set. 3 guys, brand new so any option will work.

This has to be around 2K.

Is it just a mess? Or is there a valid army here? Lol
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#10
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If you're not a cp hound, just take a vanguard detachment and that way you don't have to take the troop tax. The units are not great, rangers really didn't show me anything, avengers again not so much, storm guardians did decent but guardians just give points to my opponents, this is my assessment. I usually run jet bike army but am about to do a total wraith army and see how it goes.
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#11
Slasher956

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Look at an autarch, make him your warlord.. deploy him first in a corner then every time you spend CP (including for deployment strat IF hes on the field) you get to roll to see if you get on back.

 

Plus if you run him with an avenger cat he can run round with the avengers giving them a nice re-roll of 1's... on foot he'll come in around 80 points


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#12
Karhedron

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The flamer ( scythes ?) sound okay but 1 damage just seems so incredibly lethargic in today’s super Killy Edition. Thoughts on that?


They are only 1 damage but each Wraithguard gets D3 automatic hits. If you run the numbers, Wraithcannons are marginally better than D-Scythes against multi-wound targets when moving normally. When Advancing, the auto-hits on the D-Scythes make them virtually equivalent. Against infantry, the D-Scythes are far better.


Support elements.... I picked up 2 spirit seers, and as you may know from my other thread, I have a Fraser on bike. No idea about the 4th HQ.


An Autarch is a great forcve multiplier. Not a powerhouse on a his own but his buff bubble is good and CP regeneration is always handy. I like the Jetbike version as he is a bit punchier and can get stuck into melee in an emergency to help out your other units.

Next up I want to Force in the two, unbuilt Wraithlords for aesthetic reasons. I don’t want to mess up their build.... any advice for this ?


It depends a great deal on what else you have in your army. If you have enough long-ranged heavy weapons (e.g. on your Wave Serpents) then I favour fast and cheap Wraithlords. 2 Shuriken Cannons, 2 shurican catapults and a Glaive is a decent combo as this can Advance and still fire reasonably effectively. He is fast enough that he can move up just behind the Wave Serpents and provide a "2nd wave" of assault. Anyone trying to assault your Wraithguard will have to deal with their angry big brother. This build is pretty cheap but is still 10 T8 wounds that can move fast, shred light infantry with shooting and threaten even heavy targets like Knights in melee.

Finally troops. I like the Dire Avengers.,, probably two squads. My friend is selling me a squad of guardians and a squad of rangers. Basic stuff.


Sounds solid. Eldar have some great stratagems so I would always try and take at least 1 Battalion for the 5CPs it provides.

Unknown stuff. In my friends collection there is a Night Spinner, and I can buy a second, new kit, later.
Unknown 2.... I have a lead on a local artillery set. 3 guys, brand new so any option will work.


I prefer Fire Prisms to Night Spinners as they tend to provide the bulk of my long-ranged heavyu firepower. However I know some people like spinners.

The Web spinners are probably the best artillery, particularly if you take Expert Crafters. Each platform counts as a separate unit so each one gets to reroll to hit and to wound. The platforms are quite tough, long ranged and cheap so you can use them for deplopyment zone board control to keep enemy from dropping in from Reserves. They don't need line-of-sight so park them behind terrain and just spend all game harassing your opponent's lighter units.

Is it just a mess? Or is there a valid army here? Lol


There is definitely potential here. It might not be top-level tournement tier but you can fight some fun games without feeling like you have one hand tied behind your back.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#13
Prot

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Thanks again guys. Some really good advice here.

 

One thing is I notice no one uses Falcons. Are they that bad? 

 

Also what about anti-tank? I have this Wraith style list on paper, and 3 Serpents, and I don't think I could really threaten a vehicle heavy list at all with this stuff. Are people just spamming S6 and hoping for the best? 


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#14
Slasher956

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falcons lose out to serpents in cost effectiveness ... & take up a heavy support slot & limited to 3 where as serpents are how many points do you have?

 

So equiping both with a canon underneath and the serpent with twin brightlances

 

The serperent is +1 wound, serpent sheild*, -12" range (on a flying tank!) +1 AP, D6 damage - on the main weapon system, and then + 6 troop capacity for 40 points....

 

*This is massive .. -1 damage to a min 1 .. THEN you get your spirt stone save

 

 

EDIT - how to deal with tanks.. .serepents with bright lance, wraithguard guns (both are S10 AP -4!) ..smite, serpent sheild (always funny when you've only got a couple of wounds left... or a couple of CP to 'shoot' the shield again the next turn tongue.png)  D. Repears (S8 AP -2 D flat 3 each)


Edited by Slasher956, 27 November 2019 - 01:46 PM.

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Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#15
Karhedron

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Falcons are outperformed by both Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms. They are not awful but they are a bad compromise in that both the more specialised grav tanks are easily worth the extra points.

Spamming S6 weapons is unlikely to get you very far as you will be needing 5s to wound against most targets. However your list has plenty of potential to hurt enemy tanks. Wave Serpents can pack a pair of Brightlances. Dark Reapers are decent (if not stellar) against tanks. Wraithguard (either Cannons or Scythes) can put the hurt on vehicles at close range. Wraithlords with Glaives can mince a tank in close combat (or you can stick Brightlances on them if you wish although this will tend to slow them down somewhat).

If you want more anti-tank then Fire Prisms are solid, as are War Walkers. Both benefit strongly from Expert Crafters as they rely on a small number of high strength shots so a reroll to hit and wound each is quite strong on these units.

My experience has generally been that having a variety of anti-tank weapons spread across multiple units is often more effective than 1 or 2 dedicated units. Eldar certainly lend themselves to this approach, double so with Expert Crafters.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#16
Prot

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falcons lose out to serpents in cost effectiveness ... & take up a heavy support slot & limited to 3 where as serpents are how many points do you have?

 

So equiping both with a canon underneath and the serpent with twin brightlances

 

The serperent is +1 wound, serpent sheild*, -12" range (on a flying tank!) +1 AP, D6 damage - on the main weapon system, and then + 6 troop capacity for 40 points....

 

*This is massive .. -1 damage to a min 1 .. THEN you get your spirt stone save

 

 

EDIT - how to deal with tanks.. .serepents with bright lance, wraithguard guns (both are S10 AP -4!) ..smite, serpent sheild (always funny when you've only got a couple of wounds left... or a couple of CP to 'shoot' the shield again the next turn tongue.png)  D. Repears (S8 AP -2 D flat 3 each)

 

I've got a min squad of Reapers in the list I'm not sure it's a great idea because they will probably get a lot of Thunder cannon fire, but I want to try the Exarch re-roll 2D6 ability for his Tempest launcher.

 

Falcons are outperformed by both Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms. They are not awful but they are a bad compromise in that both the more specialised grav tanks are easily worth the extra points.

Spamming S6 weapons is unlikely to get you very far as you will be needing 5s to wound against most targets. However your list has plenty of potential to hurt enemy tanks. Wave Serpents can pack a pair of Brightlances. Dark Reapers are decent (if not stellar) against tanks. Wraithguard (either Cannons or Scythes) can put the hurt on vehicles at close range. Wraithlords with Glaives can mince a tank in close combat (or you can stick Brightlances on them if you wish although this will tend to slow them down somewhat).

If you want more anti-tank then Fire Prisms are solid, as are War Walkers. Both benefit strongly from Expert Crafters as they rely on a small number of high strength shots so a reroll to hit and wound each is quite strong on these units.

My experience has generally been that having a variety of anti-tank weapons spread across multiple units is often more effective than 1 or 2 dedicated units. Eldar certainly lend themselves to this approach, double so with Expert Crafters.

 

Very good point that I was trying to maximize Expert Crafters. So  to me this would partially validate some of the less popular options I have. I was thinking of Artillery, Wraithlords, etc. 1 shot weapons or even the 2 Brightlances would be good.

 

I think the Wraithlords might be better than Serpents for this role.... not sure but that T8 is nice.

 

Anyway right now I have a mix, and I have a list that is probably pretty bad, but for right now it goes something like this.

 

 
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [86 PL, 1,549pts] ++
 
+ No Force Org Slot +
 
Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Expert Crafters, Wrath of the Dead
 
The Path of War
 
+ HQ +
 
Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 137pts]: 2. Doom, 3. Ghostwalk, Craftworlds Warlord, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear, Twin Shuriken Catapult
 
Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 3. Ghostwalk, Shuriken Pistol
 
Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]: 0. Smite, 5. Quicken/Restrain, Shuriken Pistol
 
+ Troops +
 
Dire Avengers [6 PL, 69pts]
. 5x Dire Avenger: 5x Avenger Shuriken Catapult
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults
. . Exarch Power: Battle Fortune
 
Guardian Defenders [5 PL, 95pts]: 10x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
 
Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger
 
+ Elites +
 
Wraithblades [10 PL, 175pts]: Ghostswords, 5x Wraithblade
 
Wraithguard [11 PL, 190pts]: Wraithcannon, 5x Wraithguard
 
Wraithguard [11 PL, 215pts]: D-scythe, 5x Wraithguard
 
+ Dedicated Transport +
 
Wave Serpent [9 PL, 149pts]: Spirit Stones, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult
 
Wave Serpent [9 PL, 180pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Twin Bright Lance
 
Wave Serpent [9 PL, 149pts]: Spirit Stones, Twin Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult
 
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [29 PL, -1CP, 452pts] ++
 
+ HQ +
 
Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 101pts]: Power sword, Twin Shuriken Catapult
 
+ Heavy Support +
 
Dark Reapers [7 PL, -1CP, 141pts]
. 3x Dark Reaper: 3x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Tempest Launcher
. . Exarch Power: Crack Shot, Exemplar of the Reaper Shrine, Rain of Death
 
Wraithlord [8 PL, 95pts]: Ghostglaive, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult
 
Wraithlord [8 PL, 115pts]: Bright Lance, Ghostglaive, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult
 
++ Total: [115 PL, -1CP, 2,001pts] ++
 
Created with BattleScribe
 
It is over in points, and I did just add the Autarch Skyrunner, but gave him zilch. I do like the idea of him, but something has to go here. I would like to get more brightlances in too.

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#17
Slasher956

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Your missing a power off the farseer... 

 

Personally I'd put a crystal target matrix on the serpent with bright lances so if you do shoot the closest you ignore -1 to hit for shooting heavy weapons...  on the other two look at adding Vectored Engines and advancing all the time with them for that extra bit of protection of -1 to hit.

 

I also prefer shuriken canon on the under side over cats due to the strength and range... i'd rather wound marines on 3's than 4's

 

With the Autarch if on a bike give him a lance for the extra shot before charging, extra strenght when he does... also use the index entry to give him a banshee mask (0 points)


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Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#18
Captain_Krash

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Never mind list. I just can't wait to see what you do paint wise for this army. 

 

Krash


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#19
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Slasher, Those sound like solid changes but I'm already over 2K. Something has to go. I guess there's too much junk in the list. Perhaps drop an HQ?

 

Krash,

 

Thanks for the compliment, but to be honest I won't be doing anything super fancy with this army. I just want to get it on the table top and a decent time frame! I think some of the Wraith models have a lot of potential, but I don't think I'll be going crazy on these guys. :)


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#20
Slasher956

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I'd be tempted to drop a canon waveserpent & put a unit in to the webway... most likely a unit of wraithguard with d-sycthes 

 

then after upgrades on the other 2 'serpents you can get another unit of guardians in the list... & if you are feeling really cheesy index option a reaper launcher on to the autarchs bike :)


Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

happy.png


#21
Prot

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So what I did (for the better or for the worse...) is I dropped a squad of Guardians, for a squad of Dire Avengers with dual Cats. This allowed me to keep the Battalion legal, but this way I keep the dual Lance Serpent and a Wraithlord with a Lance.

 

(still trying to take full advantage of my Craftworld choices for re-rolls)

 

Anyway, I see moving and shooting heavies is going to be an issue for this army. I skipped the targeting matrix on the serpent because I just can't find the points. However it's debatable if I would use them, only getting the chance when my target is closest.

 

SpiritSeer Question:

 

So I bought two of these models with the idea being they are not only fluffy but better for Wraith armies. In the old days I used them so my Wraithknights wouldn't fall asleep on the battle field (remember those days?) 

 

But I'm reading the rule now and if I'm reading it correctly, I'm thinking it's a bit useless?

 

Spirit Mark You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for friendly <CRAFTWORLD> SPIRIT HOST units' attacks against enemy units that are within 6" of this model

 

Is this basically saying unless you've got the Spiritseer within 6" of enemy models he's not helping them?, That seems very... underwhelming. 

 

Since he's 10 points more than a Warlock, is it just better to take 2 warlocks instead and buy myself a second Brightlance on my other Wraithlord?


Edited by Prot, 27 November 2019 - 07:15 PM.

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#22
Slasher956

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For 10 points you get a better aka full smite...unlike warlocks with their max 1 mortal wound....

I’d run one up front with the wraith blades for the re rolls and keep the 2nd back changing smite for the boost power (no 5)
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Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#23
Prot

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Gees I didn't catch that. Wow is starting a new army daunting nowadays. lol

 

Great call on ditching smite. I was only going for Ghostwalk (add 2 to charge) on one Spiritseer, but Focus Will is a great call (add 2 to a Deny within 6").

 

Even impair senses is great. Definitely topic worthy. Especially with a Spiritseer in close with Bladed Wraiths... able to point to a long range squad *Lootas or whatever, and really mess them up for a turn. Even a Riptide would be really impaired for a turn with that.

 

I might have to consider it over Ghost walk!


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#24
Slasher956

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You need to read the Phoenix rising errata*...focus will is now a flat +2 to the targets psychic tests


*it was mentioned on Facebook and is in the downloads section

Edited by Slasher956, 27 November 2019 - 07:57 PM.

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Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#25
Prot

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Thanks again. I just purchased Phoenix Rising a week ago. Between that and the Craftworld codex, it’s been daunting.

Even with the discount on the Apoc box and my friends help, I feel like I spent a fortune this week.

I sold my Ultramarines to take a bit of the sting off the purchases but still... I did find a friend that was somewhat willing to split a Phoenix box set with me. I’m a bit of a fluff nut so I bartered to keep the background info/ fluff stuff, but I will pay for it.

I just really wish it wasn’t a Falcon in the box.

Anyway, I need to put a ton of stuff together now as my first game will the Friday with the new army. I expect to take a whooping even though I’ve made my opponent fully aware of what I’m trying.

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