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What is your least favorite HH novel?


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#126
The_son_of_Dorn

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In the grim Darkness of the future there is only,

"My Primarch is stronger than your Primarch"
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My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#127
Fedor

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I liked Gorgon of Medusa a lot more on a reread and thought it wasn't a bad deconstruction of the IH(first read was a similar reaction to caerolion) and showing of why Ferrus by the time of the Fulgrim novel had no interest in the Warmaster position. It didn't really make Ferrus seem weak either imo (he doesn't actually fail at all when he's deciding to fight a textbook compliance, it's all going as planned until the personal assassination attempt ) it's just it becomes a retread of the Dropsite Massacre/showcase of already established chinks in the armour(which all of the primarchs have) in the COLD MEDUSAN RAGE temper he possesses and mostly keeps on a controlled leash. It's hardly surprising if that bubbled to the surface a few times during the crusade, yet when the only full novel you have of the character in so far is all about the time it became a key part of his downfall it doesn't hit home as much to focus on it again with little to contrast against.

 

 Overall for me as an IH player it just seemed like the wrong story at the wrong time though, and the EC stuff was indeed heavy-handed. It's easy to see why IH fans or those wanting something different from them than stories where they are at their lowest/situations that don't suit their skillset were let down by the book basically taking a forgeworld legendary victory and turning it beat for beat into a foreshadowing of the Dropsite Massacre. I feel it would have been a lot better received as part of a bigger Great Crusade Iron Hands series that had books showcasing their brutal, set-piece approach being very successful to contrast with imo.

 

Haley's Corax took a similar  deconstructing the legion approach, but was more even handed and successful at it imo, though the writing isn't as skillful or distinct. I'm really interested in seeing how Guymer approaches the Lion.

 

On Fallen Angels, that book was an odd one to me. Lee's work in the Darkblade books and to a slightly lesser extent the Nagash trilogy was some of the best prose in BL and he had one of the more distinctive literary voices in the stable at the time. I didn't get much of that flair at all in Fallen Angels, though i enjoyed most of it well enough other than the bizarre and poorly explained Terran Sorcerers inclusion. Lee was someone i thought would then go on to be a semi-regular in the series, handling the DA but that book actually was one of his last BL publications for years was it not?.

 

The failures I was referring to were not taking any precautions against psykers during the negotiations despite criticizing the Ultramarines for falling for the same trick, then doing a "screw it, charge" final assault only to risk nuclear annihilation, despite the Ultramarines/Thousand Sons ground assault actually getting destroyed by them. "Who would have known the guys who previously used psykers to mess with negotiations would use psykers to mess with me during negotiations? Wait, our blind assault is being targeted by WMD's? How could I, tactical and strategic Primarch genius that I am, have foreseen them using the same tactic they used against our previous major assault a second time?"

 

 

I don't disagree with those observations, That's what i mean when i say it then became a retread of the Dropsite/already well known character flaws. Guymer obviously  wanted to hammer home the point that the character is following a dark ideological path compared to someone like Guilliman( like Curze, in his own way he's committed entirely to being a weapon of war for the Emperor) and that by the time of Gardinaal this has lead Manus to become complacent and overconfident in his success and frustrated at no one  being able to really push him in combat(with subtle allusion this includes a few of the other primarchs)...he's shown as quite self-aware though and mostly recognises his issues in the last part where he's talking to Fulgrim and thinking about Guilliman. I'm guessing Guymer wanted to link things up to the more laid back, wiser and content Ferrus we see initially in Fulgrim, before the personal betrayal brings the COLD MEDUSAN RAGE back to being a problem again.

 

It's a clever enough book in its own way and i'd say if one of the options for how to go about writing an entry in the series was "deconstruct the characters personality flaws and use them to foreshadow the tragedies of the later heresy" it mostly succeeds other than some of the EC ham-fistedness. Some of the other books like Perturabo, Corax and Curze have taken the same route and i think it's an interesting literary choice( especially as there is often so much " power levels" discussion around primarchs where this kind of thing can easily be taken as faction bias/:cussting on a character and unfairly give books a bad rep) i'm just not really sure it was the right one for Ferrus, considering we're not likely to get other dedicated books any time soon.


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#128
The_son_of_Dorn

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Ferrus is one if my favourites. His death is like the equivalent of killing of say Iron Man in the first Major Marvel movie for me.

Really wanted to see more of him at his absolute best yano. Not become some tortured ill used plot device down the line which even his own legion uphold with breathtaking strangeness.

My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#129
MegaVolt87

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In the grim Darkness of the future there is only,

"My Primarch is stronger than your Primarch"

 

In the grim Darkness of the internet fandom there is only,

 

"My Space Dad can beat up you're Space Dad."

 

teehee.gif

 

Yeah BL did Ferrus dirty in HH. Though I think IH came out better overall than Salamanders though. 


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My Iron Warriors Project   Guns for the guns god!, Bullets for the Brass throne!


#130
b1soul

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Let's be honest here...the space dad on space dad action is half the fun of the HH setting

#131
mc warhammer

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that...could be taken the wrong way
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can't touch this
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warhammer time!
 

#132
StrangerOrders

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Let's be honest here...the space dad on space dad action is half the fun of the HH setting

I'd argue its even funnier when its centuries-old demigods go into internal monologues about how awesome and misunderstood their particular Space Dad is and how their Space Dad is actually the bestest Space Dad and all other Marines are just Jelly.

 

Its considerably less funny when folks take those views at face value, but it is pretty funny to read them.



#133
Kelborn

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*cough* least favorite HH novel *cough*


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#134
The_son_of_Dorn

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Least favourite at the moment is deliverance lost. Boring, bland, overly stereotypical.

Just my two cents.
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My alternate Heresy http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326705-another-alternate-heresy-with-no-fallen-primarchs/

 

"Poor chaos, the result of trillions of randomly merged hostile emotional subconsciousness's...........and 70% of them are female"  


#135
Roomsky

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While I stick by my previous picks (Vulkan Lives, Deathfire, Battle for the Abyss), I feel there's an argument to be made for any book that made me less appreciative of a faction after I put it down is a qualifier, regardless of any more broad strokes quality. And I don't mean something that intentionally turns a faction into a hate sink, you'll love to hate them if it's well executed, I mean going in excited to learn about a faction and coming out of it finding them lame and uninspired.

 

Following that criteria, any of the following qualify for me:

 

Vulkan Lives / Deathfire / Old Earth

Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels / Angels of Caliban

Deliverance Lost / Corax

Battle for the Abyss

Nemesis / Garro

Vengeful Spirit

 

There are certainly plenty of other sub-par entries, but most of them were neutral enough to not sour my view of the factions presented.

 

And, if that seems a bit sour, I will point out that entries in the Heresy series have made me care far, far more about several factions that I didn't have any interest in before reading, most prominently: Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Mechanicum, White Scars, Night Lords, and World Eaters.


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#136
Lord_Caerolion

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See, Corax I actually liked, because it helped show that perhaps if Horus had come to Corax in a different way, he could have turned quite easily. He doesn't care about justice, despite his protestations, he cares about vengeance. 

 

Deliverance Lost, however, I wasn't a fan of. Yet another instance of Alpha Legion as plot device.


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#137
LetsYouDown

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While I stick by my previous picks (Vulkan Lives, Deathfire, Battle for the Abyss), I feel there's an argument to be made for any book that made me less appreciative of a faction after I put it down is a qualifier, regardless of any more broad strokes quality. And I don't mean something that intentionally turns a faction into a hate sink, you'll love to hate them if it's well executed, I mean going in excited to learn about a faction and coming out of it finding them lame and uninspired.

 

Following that criteria, any of the following qualify for me:

 

Vulkan Lives / Deathfire / Old Earth

Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels / Angels of Caliban

Deliverance Lost / Corax

Battle for the Abyss

Nemesis / Garro

Vengeful Spirit

 

There are certainly plenty of other sub-par entries, but most of them were neutral enough to not sour my view of the factions presented.

 

And, if that seems a bit sour, I will point out that entries in the Heresy series have made me care far, far more about several factions that I didn't have any interest in before reading, most prominently: Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Mechanicum, White Scars, Night Lords, and World Eaters.

 

The Buried Dagger is this for me, so much. I don't even care that I absolutely measured that novel based on what I wanted it to be. I can acknowledge that I was too personally invested in a lot of ways. I poured over the old Index Astartes and the HH1: Betrayal Death Guard sections, for too long. I was always fascinated by what really made Mortarion, often portrayed as a liberator despite his methods, as an aspect of nothing but despair. There were so many possible levels to his fall, like the way he took pride in his sons or how his means made his aspect horrific. 

 

Turns out it was a dumb, obvious plot and he was an idiot! Cool. Thanks, Jim. I hate your book. I struggle to prevent that from affecting how much I like the Death Guard, and I still do hold a place in my heart for them, but dang. That was bad. Really bad. At least we have Lords of Silence.


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#138
Lord_Caerolion

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Not just that, but the long, drawn-out suffering of the Death Guard slowly eroding Mortarion's willpower apparently happens in all of 5 minutes. The moment he realizes they're sick, he goes crazy and turns to Nurgle.


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"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


You're hired.


#139
LetsYouDown

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Right, as opposed to using the incredibly mutable time dynamics of the warp. They could easily have been lost for literally centuries of pain, and shown up a week after the Siege started, but nah. As just ONE example of the lost promise of this storyline, the breaking of Mortarion could have been this massive time dilation where he was made to suffer and finally shatter for what could have seemed ages. We're talking about the fall of a primarch, and every other ascension was a massive event fraught with aetheric turmoil.

 

And that's referring to one part of this novel. I could literally rant for paragraphs about this book but I think most of my points stand in the ol' Buried Dagger thread itself. 


Edited by LetsYouDown, Yesterday, 07:28 AM.

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#140
mc warhammer

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i really wanted to like buried dagger because of its subject matter but it sounds like what turned me off flight of the eisenstein is still present in this
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can't touch this
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warhammer time!
 

#141
LetsYouDown

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I'd invite you to read it and make up your own mind. Many seemed to have enjoyed it a lot. Even quite a few Death Guard fans. I'm no gatekeeper, so if you enjoy it that's alright. But it's my #1 most despised novel of the Heresy bar none, for whatever my opinion's worth. I've never read Fear to Tread either, and probably never will. I didn't like Flight of the Eisenstein or any of the Garro series, either. I may just not like James Swallow's writing, period.


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#142
Gongsun Zan

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who lost enthusiasm for the Death Guard after reading the Buried Dagger, and I'm sort of guy who wants to start buying a new army after every BL book I read. The Death Guard's fall to Nurgle is arguably the most important moment in the Legion's history, and it doesn't even get half a novel.

It find it even retroactively makes Path of Heaven worse, because all of the setup in Mortarion's scenes in PoH are completely ignored in the Buried Dagger.
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#143
SkimaskMohawk

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See, Corax I actually liked, because it helped show that perhaps if Horus had come to Corax in a different way, he could have turned quite easily. He doesn't care about justice, despite his protestations, he cares about vengeance.

Deliverance Lost, however, I wasn't a fan of. Yet another instance of Alpha Legion as plot device.


I really liked reading lord of shadow and night haunter close together because you really understand how curze is much more interested in justice than corax. Any justice meted out by corax is more symbolic or accidental ("liberating" an oppressed people is just, but not actually implementing justice).
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