What is your least favorite HH novel?

[Fedor]

I was really hoping the Buried Dagger would be DG only, with a large chunk of it on their slow succumbing to Nurgle in the warp. It seemed a great opportunity for a darker horror/pague outbreak story. The Barbarus origin story scenes we did get didn't fit well at all with the really creepy Forgeworld lore on it either. Mortarion bowing to Nurgle/the Emperor was a well done scene at least.

 

The Knights Errant arc resolution could have been it's own novella alongside the Guymer and Annandale ones.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Fedor

[DarkChaplain]

I was fine with the Death Guard and Knights Errant sharing that book. After all, Garro is inherently linked with the Legion. What I did not expect was just how separate the plotlines were. There were a few Nurgle manifestations, boohoo, that's it. There wasn't enough to link the two, and while I can see how Swallow wanted both to culminate in some sort of spiritual awakening with Nurgle+Morty / Knights Errant + Emperor, it just was not nearly enough to make me say these needed to share the same novel. The way things were, Swallow should've written a Knights Errant wrapup novella, and left Mortarion's downfall to Haley or Wraight.

[Jareddm]

Between Scars, Daemonology and Unification (which I push as one of the best exclusive short stories of any LE release), I felt Wraight had opened up tremendous opportunity for growth and depth of Mortarion's character.  But TBD really felt like it threw that away.

I did like the ending that intertwined his submission to the Emperor with his submission to Nurgle, but everything leading up to it felt so small.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I was fine with the Death Guard and Knights Errant sharing that book. After all, Garro is inherently linked with the Legion. What I did not expect was just how separate the plotlines were. There were a few Nurgle manifestations, boohoo, that's it. There wasn't enough to link the two, and while I can see how Swallow wanted both to culminate in some sort of spiritual awakening with Nurgle+Morty / Knights Errant + Emperor, it just was not nearly enough to make me say these needed to share the same novel. The way things were, Swallow should've written a Knights Errant wrapup novella, and left Mortarion's downfall to Haley or Wraight.

 

My counter-argument is that we've already had a bunch of Knights Errant-only stories, so it's not like there's an intrinsic rule that they must always feature together. For so long, even arguably in Eisenstein, the Death Guard have been nothing but the bad guys in novels, or just a fraction of the overall plot, so it's a shame to see the book that would finally be an actual solely Death Guard book about the Traitor Legion itself get half its page count devoted to a storyline that is only included because the founding Knight Errant was Nathaniel Death-Guard-In-Name-Only Garro.

[DarkChaplain]

Here's the thing: Had Swallow woven the plotlines together, with Mortarion and Garro's former good relationship being focused on a little more, it would have worked well.

 

The Knights Errant could have worked with Malcador to delay the Death Guard, or even be the reason why they got stuck.... rather than Typhon just killing off all the navigators while pretending to be the good guy and totally being trusted by the same daddy that vowed to tear him a new one last we saw him. Garro's faith in the Emperor could have been juxtaposed with Mortarion's rejection of gods and daemons, culminating in Mortarion's embrace of Nurgle out of fear, pettiness and revenge, while Garro could have taken strength and peace of mind from the Emperor's trust / giving him a choice, rather than Loken being the one being tested and Garro outright expelled by Malcador. They could've both followed a spiritual journey throughout, but really didn't.

 

It'd have been interesting to see the contrast between Nurgle demanding fealty, with Typhus as his conduit, while the Emperor (gently) confronts Garro on his faith. It could have been used to have the Emperor comment at this point in time on the spread of the Imperial Creed, reflecting on his past attempts to quench it, and telling Garro to stay loyal for his ideals and sense of justice, rather than religious fervor. Instead, the book really skirted the issue, and for every time Rubio glimpsed Garro's thoughts, it really didn't achieve much.

 

Instead of having actual tasks for the Knights Errant in the book, really they were a mop-up crew, always a step behind, always confused, never really in charge of anything. Everything goes badly until it doesn't. Mortarion's plotline also just fails to develop the character, or Typhon, in any meaningful way that wasn't seen or implied before. Barbarus should've been left for his Primarchs novel at this point, rather than used to make him oddly sympathetic (or really, not at all, simply foolish) at this stage, while flopping about in the real plotline. Instead of exploring why Mortarion trusts Typhon so much again all of a sudden (when, again, Typhon had been MIA for YEARS doing his own thing, refusing commands etc, with Morty even sending Eidolon to find him - which is never spoken of or acknowledged in the novel) the Barbarus plot only serves to highlight that Typhon was never trustworthy to begin with, and Mortarion must've been a real bloody idiot to never have noticed.

 

Typhon rejoined the Legion too early into the novel, and it stifled Mortarion's development... or that of any other Death Guard character in the book. Imagine that Swallow had instead pitched Malcador's agents against Typhon, causing a brief confrontation between Garro and Morty, even if not face to face, leaving the Death Guard fleet disabled. In comes Typhon, the lost and scheming son, leading Mortarion into Nurgle's embrace as a means of salvation from Garro's perceived treachery, stoking the flames, rather than screwing Mortarion over himself, just to tell him the solution just costs the souls of everyone involved, no worries.

 

And instead of having it at least be Mortarion who pulls the strings behind the unrest on Terra, filling his role as vanguard of the Warmaster through warp-timey, daemonic means..... it's just Erebus again, who hasn't been actively involved in the plot for a few years, but somehow had sleeper agents and broken Sisters of Silence do the thing to get back at Malcador... years ahead of time.

 

Instead of delivering a focused, thematic novel, Swallow just threw various elements at a wall in an attempt to see what sticks. Sadly, nothing did, and now the floor at the foot of said wall is a bloody mess that everybody else dealing with these elements have to step through first.

Edited January 21, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[Lord_Caerolion]

If it had been done that way, it'd be awesome. Instead, we got a completely unconnected narrative thrown in, solely because Garro was once a Death Guard. They could have changed it so that Typhon blamed the fleet being stalled on Garro, so he killed the Navigators under the guise of killing "sympathizers to the enemy", or something, instead of the "oh trust me these guys are totes bad" rush-job we got.

 

To be perfectly honest though, part of my dislike of this is also my dislike of Garro. He's not an ex-Death Guard, he's not really even an ex-Dusk Raider, not in personality or characterization. He's just a Protagonist Good Guy Marine, much like Loken, so to have him included in the Death Guard novel just feels jarring. Even in Eisenstein he didn't add anything culturally to the knowledge of the Death Guard himself, once he was removed from the rest of the Legion. I get that the characters in the novels were created when they were still fleshing out the Legions, but both Garro and Loken are just so... bland compared to their fellow Legionaries. Loken's the Cthonian who has no Cthonian cultural behaviours, instead being just "generic Astartes main character", same with Garro. You could swap both of the Legions those characters came from, and it wouldn't make a difference to their characters other than what Traitor Primarch they're most mad at.

[MegaVolt87]

If it had been done that way, it'd be awesome. Instead, we got a completely unconnected narrative thrown in, solely because Garro was once a Death Guard. They could have changed it so that Typhon blamed the fleet being stalled on Garro, so he killed the Navigators under the guise of killing "sympathizers to the enemy", or something, instead of the "oh trust me these guys are totes bad" rush-job we got.

 

To be perfectly honest though, part of my dislike of this is also my dislike of Garro. He's not an ex-Death Guard, he's not really even an ex-Dusk Raider, not in personality or characterization. He's just a Protagonist Good Guy Marine, much like Loken, so to have him included in the Death Guard novel just feels jarring. Even in Eisenstein he didn't add anything culturally to the knowledge of the Death Guard himself, once he was removed from the rest of the Legion. I get that the characters in the novels were created when they were still fleshing out the Legions, but both Garro and Loken are just so... bland compared to their fellow Legionaries. Loken's the Cthonian who has no Cthonian cultural behaviours, instead being just "generic Astartes main character", same with Garro. You could swap both of the Legions those characters came from, and it wouldn't make a difference to their characters other than what Traitor Primarch they're most mad at.

 

I thought Loken and Garro were Terran though? Typhus killing off navigators/ stranding the fleet is older lore ported forwards. Tying it into knights errant would have been more effective by the looks of it. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I thought Loken was Cthonian? They still should have been representative of their respective Legion's cultures, even if that was Dusk Raider rather than Death Guard, for example. The Terran Legions weren't just all clones of each other.

[bluntblade]

Loken is definitely Cthonian. I don't actually know of any Terran SoH.

[aa.logan]

Loken is definitely Cthonian. I don't actually know of any Terran SoH.

Iactron Qruze!

 

Loken is definitely Cthonian. I don't actually know of any Terran SoH.

Iacton Qruze!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Iacton Qruze is a mess. Fairly certain he's been described as both, or at least said that he has a Cthonian accent.

[mc warhammer]

Iacton Qruze is a mess. Fairly certain he's been described as both, or at least said that he has a Cthonian accent.

from lexi:

"Captain in the Luna Wolves since the Legion's inception and a veteran of the Unification era (despite being born on Cthonia"

 

not confusing at all.

 

but i guess it depends on when horus was found?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Horus was found after the Unification Wars ended. Until Unification was completed, the Legions were all on Terra. As it stands, there's no way Cruze can be both a Unification veteran and born on Cthonia.

 

EDIT: Apparently he "held prominent status before the discovery of the Primarch Horus" too, which also doesn't make any sense if he was born on Cthonia, given Horus "grew up" with the Emperor, and knowing the growth rates of the Primarchs.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Roomsky]

Much as I'd love to carpet bomb Mcneill for inconsistencies like those above, it really is the responsibility of the editor to be able to step back and go "hey, that's not right." I appreciate the hard work put in by Kyme and Goulding but the series is frankly filled with continuity errors and spelling mistakes to a degree that's a bit maddening considering the IP we're talking about.

[mc warhammer]

Horus was found after the Unification Wars ended. Until Unification was completed, the Legions were all on Terra. As it stands, there's no way Cruze can be both a Unification veteran and born on Cthonia.

 

EDIT: Apparently he "held prominent status before the discovery of the Primarch Horus" too, which also doesn't make any sense if he was born on Cthonia, given Horus "grew up" with the Emperor, and knowing the growth rates of the Primarchs.

just clarifying that by "not confusing at all" i meant "confusing as heck"

[mc warhammer]

from VS:

 

"he (Horus) bent to take Qruze’s chin in his hand. ‘Ah, Iacton. Of all my sons, you were the one I never expected to turn from me. You were old guard, a warrior with roots on both Terra and Cthonia. You were the best of us, but your time is over. Tell me, how did you even get aboard?"

 

i don't hate VS as much as some but man, i feel like iacton was wasted here.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I had picked that up, MC, just expanding on it a bit.

 

And yes, this is definitely on the editors, but these continuity errors mostly seem to have occurred at the beginning of the series, when things were far more free-form. From what we know, there was far less planning going on at the time, and certainly not the team meetings that we know occur now. The planning seems to have mostly involved sharing of basic plot summaries and general ideas of where to go after. Just look at the whole "Loken needs to fight Abaddon at the end of the series, and fade to black" turning into "getting beaten up by Abaddon, having a building dropped on him, and then an orbital bombardment on top of that".

[1ncarnadine]

Maybe Iacton's roots were just regarding training recruits for a long time on Cthonia. That stands up across the board from what I can see. Cthonia was found very quickly after Terra was unified, so he could have spent a hundred years or more there monitoring selection.

[b1soul]

I suppose some Terrans could pick up a Cthonian accent if they hang out with Cthonians a lot

[bluntblade]

He has a line somewhere to the effect that,"we were brothers on Cthonia"

[Tyriks]

Horus himself raises similar questions. He had to be taught Cthonian and Horus Rising says he was the only primarch not raised on the recruiting world of his legion. But they also refer to Cthonia as his home, and say his gestational pod landed there. Where else would he have been?

[Xisor]

Wolf Hunt, to my mind, feels like having my mugger round for tea.

 

It may clear a few things up and let me know he's gone straight and is nowadays making a serious effort to be a good egg who, one who realises he messed up.

 

I don't think the mugger's intricate plan all along was to have a deep and meaningful conclusion to our tale years later.

 

And I won't be revising my diary entries to say that that wasn't a very bad day.

 

Also, Wolf Hunt was a bloody annoyance in and of itself.

 

So it wasn't even restorative justice.

 

Two muggings!

 

(I'm not convinced of the integrity of this analogy.)

[Kelborn]

*sigh* least favorite HH novel, no chatter about specific characters

 

Second reminder.

[BrainFireBob]

Horus was found after the Unification Wars ended. Until Unification was completed, the Legions were all on Terra. As it stands, there's no way Cruze can be both a Unification veteran and born on Cthonia.

 

EDIT: Apparently he "held prominent status before the discovery of the Primarch Horus" too, which also doesn't make any sense if he was born on Cthonia, given Horus "grew up" with the Emperor, and knowing the growth rates of the Primarchs.

Forget where- maybe FW books but Cthonians were being captured/enslaved to reinforce the Legion during Unification. On the moon, which is why they were the Luna Wolves.

 

Yeah, only makes sense if "before Horus is found" becomes "before Horus takes command"- so young Horus would have seen Unification.

 

Implication is Emps knew a Primarch was so close he launched retrieval before finishing Unification

Edited January 23, 2020 by BrainFireBob

[bluntblade]

There was some contact with Cthonoa during Old Night. The events of Horus' early years, however, are contested by historians in-universe.