Is this the end of specialised chapter units (Death Company)

[Panzer]

To be fair the big four are only the big four because they have a Codex with unique units. Without unique units they really aren't different than vanilla Marines with their supplements now. ^^

[Bryan Blaire]

And they also didn’t start out with unique units, only separate Codexes - so truthfully all the Primaris did was emerge on a stage exactly like the standard Space Marines did 25ish years ago...

 

So who knows, in another 20ish years, we might be talking about “the Nine” the way that the “Big Four” are talked about today.

[Elzender]

And they also didn’t start out with unique units, only separate Codexes - so truthfully all the Primaris did was emerge on a stage exactly like the standard Space Marines did 25ish years ago...

 

So who knows, in another 20ish year’s, we might be talking about “the Nine” the way that the “Big Four” are talked about today.

That sounds nice, although it makes me feel a bit bad about all other factions that are highly unlikely to get something similar in scope.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

And they also didn’t start out with unique units, only separate Codexes - so truthfully all the Primaris did was emerge on a stage exactly like the standard Space Marines did 25ish years ago...

 

So who knows, in another 20ish year’s, we might be talking about “the Nine” the way that the “Big Four” are talked about today.

That sounds nice, although it makes me feel a bit bad about all other factions that are highly unlikely to get something similar in scope.

Loyalist marines are probably the most popular faction by alot though so it's to be expected. All the "other" factions just want similar rules like army wide traits, mono army bonuses and second traits based on the bonuses to be on a level playing field and get the most out of each unit and each point.

 

I saw legends came out on the community site with the downloadable pdf's. It mentions the points will not regularly be updated and they are not ment for matched play. Do you guys think they won't let people use those units in tournaments then?

Edited December 4, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given we've already got special characters getting subfaction-locked, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing the concept expanded. I mean, what is Iron-Father Feirros but a Chapter-specific HQ choice? Is that really any different than a Chapter-specific Elites choice?

[Closet Skeleton]

And they also didn’t start out with unique units, only separate Codexes - so truthfully all the Primaris did was emerge on a stage exactly like the standard Space Marines did 25ish years ago...

 

So who knows, in another 20ish years, we might be talking about “the Nine” the way that the “Big Four” are talked about today.

 

They always had unique units, not many but they didn't print separate codexes that were literally identical.

 

In 2nd ed Codex Angels of Death had Death Company and jump pack veterans unique for Blood Angels and Ravenwing and Deathwing were still a thing with unique models and special rules. Heavy Bolter/Assault cannon land speeders were unique to Ravenwing (but nobody had weapon options for landspeeders so Dark Angels didn't get the heavy flamer/multimelta variant everyone else got) and only Ravenwing could take Attack Bikes and Landspeeders in squadrons of 1-3 in the units section, everyone else treated those as vehicle choices from the support section.

 

Ultramarines technically had bolt gun veterans unique to them in that BA and DA couldn't take them.

 

Then they had a bunch of special characters.

 

I don't have the 2nd ed Space Wolf book (technically the original Marine Codex and the first codex in general) but while it lacks some unique stuff like veteran scouts that came later I doubt its identical to the Ultramarine army list outside of the special characters.

[BitsHammer]

Death Company didn't start out as a unit, it started as a rule that could randomly effect basically any model in your army on a die roll who where then shuffled into a single Death Company.

 

All this griping is premature anyways. This isn't a codex with a model release, it's a 1.5 update to the rules while they work on the actual codex and/or new units/upgrade kits. Maybe I'm biased after waiting through several editions for my Sisters but the BA got a solid rules and points update coming that makes them more viable on the table. More stuff will be coming later, but in the meantime GW can rebalance the game with a smaller series of updates that create new spaces for campaign ideas for narrative players instead of leavind everyone who doesn't play C:SM out in the cold.

 

If you aren't happy with ths rules then email GW about it with constructive criticism about why you don't like certain rules or changes they've made. Knowing the lead times on stuff the BA book is likely not finalized yet and this could be a good time to push for changes on legitimate issues.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

I don't have the 2nd ed Space Wolf book (technically the original Marine Codex and the first codex in general) but while it lacks some unique stuff like veteran scouts that came later I doubt its identical to the Ultramarine army list outside of the special characters.

 

Indeed. Back in 2nd edition they put a bit more variation in the stats for the different units, which mainly manifested as all SWs other than Scouts getting a WS boost compared to their SM equivalents (imo this came about due to both Scouts and BCs being 'newbies' at the time, and they wanted the stats to reflect this, so by the time you got to GH a Marine had had 2 stat buffs, whereas a regular Tactical only got 1), also Long Fangs got veteran stats (which back then was WS, BS and I 5). There was also stuff like being able to add a Terminator WG to your squads (still a unique SW option, aside from a brief time IHs got something similar in their IA rules).

 

Death Company didn't start out as a unit, it started as a rule that could randomly effect basically any model in your army on a die roll who where then shuffled into a single Death Company.

 

 

This is incorrect (at least as far as the 'Codex era' goes). They did start out as a regular unit in 2nd edition, before shifting to a random number in 3rd. But even then, they were still a specific unit, with their own stats and weapon options, the only random thing was how many dudes you got in any given game.

[Bryan Blaire]

They had rules units, but there were very few unique “unit” models, which is what i was talking about. Maybe the Deathwing were a unique set of models starting right at 2nd Edition, but if they were, they weren’t released as such where I was - I had to use basic Terminators painted as Deathwing for two years until 1996 when the Deathwing models were available. I still have the original Deathwing Terminators box I bought in 1996 sitting here, and the Angels of Death Codex in my hands.

 

Even the Death Company and jump pack Veterans were made with basic units and had limited models released specifically for them - and they were never considered “required” by folks to play those units - now you’ve got people who will refuse to play opponents because you don’t use a specific model. Even in the Angels of Death Codex, you can barely distinguish between the metal DC models that are in the depicted DC unit, but the majority of the unit appears to be basic Marines painted black. The unique models were no where near the set up as the current unit kits.

 

Fact is many units were more distinguished by rules than unique models (and the unique models for units were so closely similar in appearance - DW Terminators were just the Terminators with an extra knife and the Sgt had some purity seal type loin cloth thing and some greave decorations - that people would freely mix regular models of the type into a special unit and no one would bat an eye) - much like things may be for a while for Primaris. That doesn’t mean unique units for Primaris have to never happen.

[Slave to Darkness]

If I recall correctly the original Death Company box was the Blood Angel tactical box repackaged without the Melta guy, Heavy guy and Sgt and had a Chaplain, 2 other marines and some assault weapon sprues. Back then the minis were labeled Blood Angel 1, Blood Angel 2 etc. and those were just normal marines with a little bit of extra bling like Bryan mentioned above. Even the wolf minis were basic marine bodies with the occasional wolf pelt or different shaped gem in the middle of the chest eagle. 8th ed primaris is just copying the old marine range as it was evolving, nothing to loose your :cuss over guys... Id be more pissed off about them putting the rest of the faith and fury lore in a ltd ed book... 

 

I must admit though, it is nice to see people complaining about GW again instead of all the Nu-GW praise they have not deserved. 

[Dracos]

 

Loyalist marines are probably the most popular faction by alot though so it's to be expected. All the "other" factions just want similar rules like army wide traits, mono army bonuses and second traits based on the bonuses to be on a level playing field and get the most out of each unit and each point.

 

I saw legends came out on the community site with the downloadable pdf's. It mentions the points will not regularly be updated and they are not ment for matched play. Do you guys think they won't let people use those units in tournaments then?

 

 

I don't doubt the other "3" of the Big 4 are going to be treated to their own Codex/Supplements. If that is who you mean then absolutely. As far as "others", I might buy that thought for the under-performing factions but they are few. Guard, Knights, Eldar, Tau and Orks are performing in tournaments within a few percentage points of each other. Not to say they're aren't some contenders out there for tweaking but the state of the game is better than it's ever been. not withstanding the fact some ... Haters got to hate ... 

 

All this backlash over the Rise of the Astartes is laughable imo. The flagship faction has been in such a sad state going back past 7th edition (pushing the very unique builds or half a minute at the beginning of 8th), folks just need to take a deep breath. With the intense scrutiny they are under today and all the bumps regular Astartes have been given to be competitive it's easy to imagine GW having to be very careful with the "other" 3 and the specialty units that have traditionally made them popular in comparison to the historically Vanilla Chapters. Imagine the backlash they will have to endure if the "3" once again shove, Imperial Fist, Sallies, and Iron Hands into obscurity? 

 

Patience

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

Loyalist marines are probably the most popular faction by alot though so it's to be expected. All the "other" factions just want similar rules like army wide traits, mono army bonuses and second traits based on the bonuses to be on a level playing field and get the most out of each unit and each point.

 

I saw legends came out on the community site with the downloadable pdf's. It mentions the points will not regularly be updated and they are not ment for matched play. Do you guys think they won't let people use those units in tournaments then?

 

I don't doubt the other "3" of the Big 4 are going to be treated to their own Codex/Supplements. If that is who you mean then absolutely. As far as "others", I might buy that thought for the under-performing factions but they are few. Guard, Knights, Eldar, Tau and Orks are performing in tournaments within a few percentage points of each other. Not to say they're aren't some contenders out there for tweaking but the state of the game is better than it's ever been. not withstanding the fact some ... Haters got to hate ...

 

All this backlash over the Rise of the Astartes is laughable imo. The flagship faction has been in such a sad state going back past 7th edition (pushing the very unique builds or half a minute at the beginning of 8th), folks just need to take a deep breath. With the intense scrutiny they are under today and all the bumps regular Astartes have been given to be competitive it's easy to imagine GW having to be very careful with the "other" 3 and the specialty units that have traditionally made them popular in comparison to the historically Vanilla Chapters. Imagine the backlash they will have to endure if the "3" once again shove, Imperial Fist, Sallies, and Iron Hands into obscurity?

 

Patience

I was talking about most non space marine codex factions when I used the word "other". I'm fine with space marines being the most powerful. I'm not expecting supplements for any other faction, nor do I want them. I just want balance that doesn't take a year. I personally find it laughable myself when I see astartes players telling others to chill though, the years I've been in the hobby they have been the biggest complainers. How ironic.

 

Back on topic, has anyone heard if Legends units are playable in tournaments? If they are not going to be updated for points over time I would think they would get worse as everything else gets cheaper, can't see people being mad over it. You would think GW would eventually make Primaris wolf riders, Primaris bikers and stuff but that could be years from now, if they ever do. I would hope they just make Primaris versions instead of doing new old marine kits down the road.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[Dracos]

That’s the thing though. You mention waiting a year. As someone who started in 2nd edition, even a year seems a short time. The speed at which FAQ and actually knowing there will be a CA means GW is responding at warp speed compared to days gone by.

 

I feel it also means they are still learning how to take time to try and get things correct before releasing a product compared to those days. The Specialized units in the past have pretty much been OP compared to their Brothers and I feel with the shift to Primaris Marines they are trying to do their due diligence. Long Fangs Ravenwing and the Death Company aren’t going anywhere. We can bank on there being Primaris Edison’s eventually. It’s just in the new Marine meta it’s going to take a minute ... and the. There is always the business end of timing new releases in a manner to optimize profits over the long term.

[ranulf the revenant]

Just in general I wouldn't be too worried. I mean specialised unit are more expensive in $/€/ whatever, right? For example: tactical squad 35 € for 10 models so = 3.5 €/ model compared to death company: 30€ for 5 = 6€/ model. So there's a premium for units that are more elite/ flavourful even if the models themselves are quite comparable. GW wants to makes money, they wouldn't really want to omit an opportunity to do so. So there probably will be specialised Primaris units for people to buy at some point in the future. I mean, they also released Deathwatch Intercessors which werent actually 'necessary' either - you could just make them combining Deathwatch pauldrons and normal Intercessors.

[Special Officer Doofy]

That’s the thing though. You mention waiting a year. As someone who started in 2nd edition, even a year seems a short time. The speed at which FAQ and actually knowing there will be a CA means GW is responding at warp speed compared to days gone by.

 

I feel it also means they are still learning how to take time to try and get things correct before releasing a product compared to those days. The Specialized units in the past have pretty much been OP compared to their Brothers and I feel with the shift to Primaris Marines they are trying to do their due diligence. Long Fangs Ravenwing and the Death Company aren’t going anywhere. We can bank on there being Primaris Edison’s eventually. It’s just in the new Marine meta it’s going to take a minute ... and the. There is always the business end of timing new releases in a manner to optimize profits over the long term.

I've been playing since 3rd, and just because the company used to be worse doesn't mean anyone needs to be grateful that they are remotely better. The lack of balance can be ridiculous. Can you imagine if a MMORPG that had 10 classes only updated and added skills to one class and took two months to do another and the whole cycle took 18+ months? No one would play it. In wh40k GW loves the lack of balance, it promotes people to play multiple factions and spend even more money on plastic. The fact they charge money for chapter approved point adjustments and fixing their own game is hilarious.

 

When all the old specialized kits quit selling they will make new ones, whether it's an update of an old one or a completely new one. I feel like they don't need to worry too much about most chapter specialized units being balanced out the gate, points adjustments fix those. If thunderwolf cavalry is too strong for the points, increasing their cost only hurts space wolves and balances the unit and doesn't hurt any of the other Legions unlike increasing the cost of let's say predators which hurts all space marines.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I've only listened to one episode of Vox Cast, which one covers the statement that they will not be making specialized Primaris units?

[Panzer]

 

That’s the thing though. You mention waiting a year. As someone who started in 2nd edition, even a year seems a short time. The speed at which FAQ and actually knowing there will be a CA means GW is responding at warp speed compared to days gone by.

 

I feel it also means they are still learning how to take time to try and get things correct before releasing a product compared to those days. The Specialized units in the past have pretty much been OP compared to their Brothers and I feel with the shift to Primaris Marines they are trying to do their due diligence. Long Fangs Ravenwing and the Death Company aren’t going anywhere. We can bank on there being Primaris Edison’s eventually. It’s just in the new Marine meta it’s going to take a minute ... and the. There is always the business end of timing new releases in a manner to optimize profits over the long term.

I've been playing since 3rd, and just because the company used to be worse doesn't mean anyone needs to be grateful that they are remotely better. The lack of balance can be ridiculous. Can you imagine if a MMORPG that had 10 classes only updated and added skills to one class and took two months to do another and the whole cycle took 18+ months? No one would play it. In wh40k GW loves the lack of balance, it promotes people to play multiple factions and spend even more money on plastic. The fact they charge money for chapter approved point adjustments and fixing their own game is hilarious.

 

When all the old specialized kits quit selling they will make new ones, whether it's an update of an old one or a completely new one. I feel like they don't need to worry too much about most chapter specialized units being balanced out the gate, points adjustments fix those. If thunderwolf cavalry is too strong for the points, increasing their cost only hurts space wolves and balances the unit and doesn't hurt any of the other Legions unlike increasing the cost of let's say predators which hurts all space marines.

 

 

A miniature wargame is not a mmorpg though. That's comparing apples with oranges. The developers don't get nearly as many or detailed informations about the game as in a mmorpg plus there's actual production and shipping time involved as well as people having to get the money to buy them, build them, often paint them and then actually use them and then perhaps use them in some actual competetive games.

The process IS a lot slower than a digital product and that's not really GWs fault. It's just the nature of things.

Edited December 11, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Special Officer Doofy]

A miniature wargame is not a mmorpg though. That's comparing apples with oranges. The developers don't get nearly as many or detailed informations about the game as in a mmorpg plus there's actual production and shipping time involved as well as people having to get the money to buy them, build them, often paint them and then actually use them and then perhaps use them in some actual competetive games.

The process IS a lot slower than a digital product and that's not really GWs fault. It's just the nature of things.

That's true, when it comes to the development of new models, kits and plastic. But I wasn't talking about plastic development. I was strictly referring to codex releases and rules (game balance). Short of they would probably make less money there is no reason to not release an edition with all the codexes at the same time. Codex creep is a well known thing for a reason. Staggering codex releases and the "coincidance" that the newer ones tend to be stronger is 100% intentional to have people jump on band wagons and buy more. And I know it takes time to create and balance a codex, but with the years between one factions book to their next or edition to edition (years) there's no time difference if they did it at once, there would still be years of time to make them.

 

Why didn't they start psychic awakening off with space marines and do what they did with chaos space marines? Why only did only they get a codex and supplements (and models and faction kits)? Marine sales went through the roof, alot of the stuff ran out on the website, I didn't see the same with the PA factions. And if the reaction is "don't worry marine codexes are always first, when the others come out they will suck again" how is that any better for the game and balance? When different hypes die down and kits stop selling they will start making specialized chapter units again I bet.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[NatBrannigan]

Pretty sure the first 'Primaris' unit released was Wulfen you know. Must have been designed alongside the first Primaris wave and came out a few months before 8th. I'm thinking this means Primaris chapter specific squads will be released eventually and anyone who disagrees Is wrong and also smells, so there.

[Panzer]

Pretty sure the first 'Primaris' unit released was Wulfen you know. Must have been designed alongside the first Primaris wave and came out a few months before 8th. I'm thinking this means Primaris chapter specific squads will be released eventually and anyone who disagrees Is wrong and also smells, so there.

 

If I recall correctly they somewhere said that they designed Wulfen with the Primaris scale in mind. So they aren't exactly the first Primaris but they won't look off in a Primaris army.

[Triszin]

 

 

Pretty sure the first 'Primaris' unit released was Wulfen you know. Must have been designed alongside the first Primaris wave and came out a few months before 8th. I'm thinking this means Primaris chapter specific squads will be released eventually and anyone who disagrees Is wrong and also smells, so there.

If I recall correctly they somewhere said that they designed Wulfen with the Primaris scale in mind. So they aren't exactly the first Primaris but they won't look off in a Primaris army.

They initially designed them in scale with old Marines.

 

Realized primaris were right around the corner, re did them to scale for primaris.

 

I'm happy that they did

[NatBrannigan]

Be happier if they get the Primaris keyword so they can go in a Repulsor, but I'll take them looking good next to my Primaris for now

 

I suspect "Grey Hunter" Primaris will be an option in PA with no new model. Not sure which way that will go but it's a kit they're bound to make money on if it was ever released. Same with Death Company. Hellblasters are practically a Dark Angels style option already, but surely Deathwing Gravis armour would sell as well. that being the case I can't see GW not releasing those kits at some point in the future. It's near or far future that's up for debate.

Edited December 13, 2019 by NatBrannigan

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

Tbh, if they ever do get round to specialist units, I'd like them to focus a bit more on the not-"big four" - specialist WS bikers, flamer and melta close support salamanders, Gorgon Gravis, that kind of stuff.

Hell to the yes on that, especially Salamanders. I'd like to see Raven Guard and Imperial Fist specialists too- perhaps Primaris Breachers for the Fists and maybe a sort of callback to those Heresy era lone assassins whose name escapes me for the sons of Corax?

They're called Moritats.

 

And they were actually organized into units of a sort when they had enough of them. They were actually Legionaries that were afflicted by the sable brand, which made them into essentially suicidal killers. They didn't really operate as a unit though, more like a group of guys with the same mission that were operating in the same area.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Claws and Effect

[SkimaskMohawk]

It wasn't just sable brand guys, it was also a temperment/psychological thing; marines that made it past the psyche screening by accident and all that

[Dracos]

I'd like to see Eliminators with something like the Seen But Remain Unseen stratagem as an innate ability to make them ore like the Mor Deythan