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Armour Saves, are they necessary?


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#51
Wulf Vengis

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A d12 armor save would be more efficient, yes.

Heck, the more stats you put on a 12 point system the game becomes far more easily balanced and diverse.

But then its a new game. Although, i do enjoy writing rules and creating games......
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#52
Panzer

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40k switching to a d12 system would be the dream, but it will never happen lol


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#53
Tyr13

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Just want to mention the whole LotR SBG thing. No armour saves, toughness and armour integrated into the defense stat. On a D6 system. Though its not igougo, which solves the agency issue.

#54
Captain_Krash

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8th already feels like who ever gets the 1st turn wins (competitively) as it is...

 

Krash


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#55
Wulf Vengis

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It does sometimes, yes Krash. But i think that's why we're seeing more units that have a "fight back at the moment of death" kind of ability.
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#56
Wulf Vengis

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So about d12s...

Astra Miltarum Infantryman
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/9+

Adeptus Astartes Space Marine
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/7/5+

Aeldari Storm Guardian
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+

Drukhari Kabalite Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+

Harlequinn Player
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
8"/5+/5+/3/3/1/4/8/11+

Necron Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/10/7+

Ork Boy
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/7+/4/4/1/2/6/11+

T'au Fire warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/9+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/7+

Tyranid Termagant
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/5/11+

Neophyte Hybrid
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/7/9+

That's a little taste of what 40k on a d12 looks like.

I've obviously adjusted the Weapon/Ballistic skills and the Armor save to reflect a d12 system.
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#57
alfred_the_great

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You may be right on that multi dice saves increasing time factor. I have to admit it's not the prefect system and i wish i could remember the actual workout my brain did the other night to put this together. I swear for the briefest of moments i had it figured out in my head and it worked.

Off topic: CHEAP I've got a pair of young, healthy runts here, CHEAP one male one, female, five years and 4 years respectively. WILL ACCEPT BITZ

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#58
TorvaldTheMild

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So about d12s...

Astra Miltarum Infantryman
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/9+

Adeptus Astartes Space Marine
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/7/5+

Aeldari Storm Guardian
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+

Drukhari Kabalite Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+

Harlequinn Player
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
8"/5+/5+/3/3/1/4/8/11+

Necron Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/10/7+

Ork Boy
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/7+/4/4/1/2/6/11+

T'au Fire warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/9+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/7+

Tyranid Termagant
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/5/11+

Neophyte Hybrid
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/7/9+

That's a little taste of what 40k on a d12 looks like.

I've obviously adjusted the Weapon/Ballistic skills and the Armor save to reflect a d12 system.

You're a bit off there, do you know that a roll of 11 on a D6 is a really rare roll, its not the same as a D6.  A roll of a 6 on a D6 is 1/6 odds, an 11 out of a 2D6 is 2/36.  So giving an ork a 11+ is a bit unfair, same with your other saves etc.  Calculate the saves etc. by odds.  Its basically like the old terminator save in 2nd edition which was a 3+ on a D6, without modifiers it was next to impossible to kill them.


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 04 December 2019 - 12:28 AM.


#59
Nemesor Tyriks

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So about d12s...
Astra Miltarum Infantryman
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/9+
Adeptus Astartes Space Marine
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/7/5+
Aeldari Storm Guardian
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+
Drukhari Kabalite Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+
Harlequinn Player
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
8"/5+/5+/3/3/1/4/8/11+
Necron Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/10/7+
Ork Boy
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/7+/4/4/1/2/6/11+
T'au Fire warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/9+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/7+
Tyranid Termagant
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/5/11+
Neophyte Hybrid
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/7/9+
That's a little taste of what 40k on a d12 looks like.
I've obviously adjusted the Weapon/Ballistic skills and the Armor save to reflect a d12 system.

You're a bit off there, do you know that a roll of 11 on a D6 is a really rare roll, its not the same as a D6.  A roll of a 6 on a D6 is 1/6 odds, an 11 out of a 2D6 is 2/36.  So giving an ork a 11+ is a bit unfair, same with your other saves etc.  Calculate the saves etc. by odds.  Its basically like the old terminator save in 2nd edition which was a 3+ on a D6, without modifiers it was next to impossible to kill them.
I'm not sure what you're talking about - as he said, those are d12s, not 2d6. 11+ on a d12 is 2/12 = 1/6.
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#60
Wulf Vengis

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I did a percentage based calculation using a d12 yes. I also considered slight variances between the Eldar save and the Militarum save simply because i feel the Eldar armor should and would be better than a guardsmens. So, yes a percentage based transference with a bit of fluffy flavor to add variance between similar items.

I almost gave the ork a Toughness of 5 simply to harken back to rogue trader, and so far the only model I've give a 12 armor save has been Fenrisian wolves. I figured that they aren't wearing anything that could be considered effective armor, whilst other originally 6+ (gant, ork) i bumped to 11 because they have some defensive measures on their person (chitinous exoskeleton for gants or flak jacket/iron plate for orks).

Edited by Wulf Vengis, 04 December 2019 - 09:11 AM.

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#61
TorvaldTheMild

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So about d12s...
Astra Miltarum Infantryman
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/9+
Adeptus Astartes Space Marine
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/7/5+
Aeldari Storm Guardian
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+
Drukhari Kabalite Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+
Harlequinn Player
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
8"/5+/5+/3/3/1/4/8/11+
Necron Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/10/7+
Ork Boy
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/7+/4/4/1/2/6/11+
T'au Fire warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/9+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/7+
Tyranid Termagant
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/5/11+
Neophyte Hybrid
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/7/9+
That's a little taste of what 40k on a d12 looks like.
I've obviously adjusted the Weapon/Ballistic skills and the Armor save to reflect a d12 system.

You're a bit off there, do you know that a roll of 11 on a D6 is a really rare roll, its not the same as a D6.  A roll of a 6 on a D6 is 1/6 odds, an 11 out of a 2D6 is 2/36.  So giving an ork a 11+ is a bit unfair, same with your other saves etc.  Calculate the saves etc. by odds.  Its basically like the old terminator save in 2nd edition which was a 3+ on a D6, without modifiers it was next to impossible to kill them.
I'm not sure what you're talking about - as he said, those are d12s, not 2d6. 11+ on a d12 is 2/12 = 1/6.

 

My bad I thought he said a 2D6, though my point still stands.  Going from a 1/6 to a 1/12 is a big difference.


Edited by TorvaldTheMild, 04 December 2019 - 03:01 PM.


#62
Subtleknife

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I think armour saves are necessary because they keep the other player involved. Plus when you roll 3 sixes against 3 lascannons it is fun.

Agree with the rest a d12 system is needed although I would probs alter the stats a bit from what is above. Plus bring in AA and you have a good revamp. I think I that would be my 10th edition wishlist.

#63
Wulf Vengis

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Actually i do intend to spread the unit stats a little more when i do the individual Codecies more thoroughly... If anyone were interested...

Edit: AA = Adeptus Arbites?

Edited by Wulf Vengis, 04 December 2019 - 04:13 PM.

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#64
Panzer

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So about d12s...
Astra Miltarum Infantryman
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/9+
Adeptus Astartes Space Marine
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/7/5+
Aeldari Storm Guardian
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+
Drukhari Kabalite Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
7"/5+/5+/3/3/1/1/7/8+
Harlequinn Player
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
8"/5+/5+/3/3/1/4/8/11+
Necron Warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/5+/4/4/1/1/10/7+
Ork Boy
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
5"/5+/7+/4/4/1/2/6/11+
T'au Fire warrior
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/9+/7+/3/3/1/1/6/7+
Tyranid Termagant
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/5/11+
Neophyte Hybrid
M/WS/BS/S/T/W/A/Ld/Sv
6"/7+/7+/3/3/1/1/7/9+
That's a little taste of what 40k on a d12 looks like.
I've obviously adjusted the Weapon/Ballistic skills and the Armor save to reflect a d12 system.

You're a bit off there, do you know that a roll of 11 on a D6 is a really rare roll, its not the same as a D6.  A roll of a 6 on a D6 is 1/6 odds, an 11 out of a 2D6 is 2/36.  So giving an ork a 11+ is a bit unfair, same with your other saves etc.  Calculate the saves etc. by odds.  Its basically like the old terminator save in 2nd edition which was a 3+ on a D6, without modifiers it was next to impossible to kill them.
I'm not sure what you're talking about - as he said, those are d12s, not 2d6. 11+ on a d12 is 2/12 = 1/6.

 

My bad I thought he said a 2D6, though my point still stands.  Going from a 1/6 to a 1/12 is a big difference.

 

 

Well yeah ... that's why he's going from 1/6 to 2/12 ... aka staying at 1/6. ;) 


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gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#65
TorvaldTheMild

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Brain fart there.



#66
Subtleknife

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Actually i do intend to spread the unit stats a little more when i do the individual Codecies more thoroughly... If anyone were interested...

Edit: AA = Adeptus Arbites?

Sorry Alternative Activation.

Also if they rebalance stats I think they need to make a baseline human the starting point and work from there, I think it is a mistake to use astartes as the starting point as GW currently do. I would also make it so a human would never have the ballistic skill of an astartes unless they had a ton of modifications and were no post human. I find it odd when you have a human rolling to hit at the same level as a spacemarine or eldar.

Edited by Subtleknife, 05 December 2019 - 12:56 PM.


#67
Plasmablasts

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Actually i do intend to spread the unit stats a little more when i do the individual Codecies more thoroughly... If anyone were interested...

Edit: AA = Adeptus Arbites?

Sorry Alternative Activation.

Also if they rebalance stats I think they need to make a baseline human the starting point and work from there, I think it is a mistake to use astartes as the starting point as GW currently do. I would also make it so a human would never have the ballistic skill of an astartes unless they had a ton of modifications and were no post human. I find it odd when you have a human rolling to hit at the same level as a spacemarine or eldar.

A D12 system would allow space for that: BS 3+ and 4+ convert to 5+ and 7+ on D12. Veteran/Elite non-trans-humans (cis-humans?) could be BS 6+, or Astartes could go to 4+.

In a D12 system, I’d also suggest most anti-infantry weaponry stays as AP -1, rather than going to -2 (which would be the direct conversion). That would give a useful boost to the survival of units like Terminators (currently AP -1 doubles the number failed saves, whereas it would only cause 50% more casualties on a D12), and would help to make dedicated anti-tank weaponry more desirable for its actual role.
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#68
Wulf Vengis

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I hadn't yet decided whether or not the AP System should be overhauled to match the d12 system, but i will definitely take a look at how its current values handle a broader amount of armor values. My current thought on this is that the AP value should not reduce an armor save by more than 6, but we'll see. I may combine the strength of a weapon and it's AP so that the strength value and AP are one and the same (based on the fact that a significantly strong enough weapon does not allow an armor save anyways).

As for Alternate Activations:
*I had considered alternate actions by player controlled unit to opponent controlled unit but it seemed to muddy up the turn system. So i broke the phases into top and bottom with one player moving then the opponent, then one player shooting followed by the opponent etc.

Force Deployment
The winner of a coin toss/roll off will deploy their forces first, this player will also begin the games first Movement Phase.

Seize the Initiative
After both players have finished deploying their forces onto the battlefield, the player who deployed their forces last can attempt to Seize the Initiative. The two players roll off and the winner will begin the first Movement Phase.
From this point on the player who begins the first Movement Phase is known as PLAYER 1.

MOVEMENT PHASE
Players move their units across the battlefield beginning with PLAYER 1. PLAYER 1s' Movement Phase is known as the Top of the Movement Phase. Once PLAYER 1 has finished moving their units, PLAYER 2 can begin moving their own. PLAYER 2s' Movement Phase is known as the Bottom of the Movement Phase.

SHOOTING PHASE
PLAYER 1 begins the top of the phase by selecting a unit to fire ranged attacks and targets for those attacks. Once PLAYER 1 has selected and resolved each units ranged attacks PLAYER 2 may begin the bottom of the phase.

CHARGE PHASE
PLAYER 1 declared and resolved charges in the top of the phase and PLAYER 2 declares and resolved their charges in the bottom of the phase.

FIGHT PHASE
PLAYER 1 begins the FIGHT PHASE by selecting what unit will fight first. Unless otherwise noted units that charged this game turn get to resolve their attacks first and PLAYER 2 will remove casualties before their unit can fight back. If no units involved in a close combat charged during this game turn then all attacks are considered resolved at the same time, PLAYER 1 will resolve their attacks first but before PLAYER 2 removes casualties their unit will make its return attacks.
This back and forth interaction will continue until all units that can fight have done so.

MORALE PHASE
When the FIGHT PHASE is completed PLAYER 1 will begin the top of the MORALE PHASE by performing and Leadership tests required, followed by PLAYER 2 doing the same.

Edited by Wulf Vengis, 06 December 2019 - 12:04 AM.

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#69
Black Blow Fly

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GW will never go d12 for their cash cow .
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#70
Wulf Vengis

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Perhaps, that's why we must. It's is our duty to better this game that we love.
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#71
Wulf Vengis

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Ok, as i said I've got kids and they can get in the way of these lesser things sometimes. That said, I've almost completed an initial conversion of the space wolves Codex stat lines (they get to go first as they're the army i play and am therefore the most comfortable with), I'll be doing Eldar second (as they're the other faction i happen to have an actual armies worth of models for). However i think I'll post anymore d12 conversions/info to the special projects page, I don't want to start another homebrew rules thread as I've got an ongoing one there for my house rules and other fun little rules things. I'd be more than happy to have people pop there heads in and give thoughts/opinions/what not or even maybe some play tasters/math-magicians. Otherwise I'll try and get some Codecies converted to d12.
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