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Most selfless Primarch?


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#51
Claws and Effect

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All the Primarchs had moments of selflessness and selfishness alike. Some skewed further in one direction than the other.

They are after all, still technically human with all the good and bad that comes with it. The catch there is that the traits they exhibit are bigger than life because of what they are.
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#52
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Fulgrim

Killed his own brother (x2), gave himself up to Daemonhood...

Edited by JeffJedi, 05 December 2019 - 06:41 PM.


#53
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All the Primarchs had moments of selflessness and selfishness alike. Some skewed further in one direction than the other.

They are after all, still technically human with all the good and bad that comes with it. The catch there is that the traits they exhibit are bigger than life because of what they are.

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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. Revelations 6:8
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#54
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Vulkan shrugs.
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#55
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Fulgrim

Killed his own brother (x2), gave himself up to Daemonhood...


Erm, could you explain your reasoning on this?

#56
Karhedron

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Sanguinius, he literally died for the Imperium. Even Vulkan didn't do that!
 
.... oh wait, he did.
Like a lot of times blink.png


I would argue Vulkan because he didn't just risk his life for grand causes, he risked it for everyday people too, even before he found out he was a Perpetual.

There is a short story "Mercy of the Dragon" in one of the HH collections where Vulkan is fighting alongside Ferrus Manus and the Emperor, shortly after his rediscovery. He hurls himself between a child and a missile, not even knowing if he could survive it.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#57
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I don't know how it can be anyone other than Guilliman. I don't see how having a singular act (that you can be argued was destined to be, so there was little agency in it) outweighs a lifetime of wasting tons of resources, effort, and time to make everyone life better. While all other primarchs were content to rule over hellholes (only improving them from 99% mortality to like 80%) as all they cared about was having a personal source of SM recruits, Guilliman made his 500 worlds better than all other places in the Imperium (and that was before he got access to Imperial tech). He didn't care he might lose his precious child soldier source by making his people too 'soft', he did it because it was the right thing (and by showing that civilized, well fed and educated men make for better recruits than malnourished, scarred, malformed kids from death worlds his brothers wanted he also exposed their rank hypocrisy, laziness, and utter lack of care).
 

vulkan, hands down. because of his direction the salamanders are the only space marine chapter that has fully kept it's humanity and cares about the common imperial citizenry.

 
What? wacko.png
 
I never got this argument about his supposed 'care'. He still left his world a hellhole where his people can die for thousands of reasons through no fault of his own. He was religious fanatic second only to Lorgar, his little prometheum cult and literal burning of heretics being one of the most warped things Imperium had until Lorgar and co went full chaos. One cartoonish jump in front of a kid (especially when you wear a tank and are literally immortal) does not make up for a lifetime of fanatical zeal and lack of care. Especially seeing that with his artifice he was better placed than most of his brothers to engineer technological solutions for his society ills, but preferred to make hammers instead down.gif
 

I think Guillimans arrogance makes him selfish, Imperium Secundus and the codex astartes and the new Lord Commander etc.

 

I like how literally every single word you said utterly demolishes your argument. Imperium Secundus where someone else ruled, becoming Lord Commander instead of Regent and giving all governance powers to regular humans, Codex Astartes that hurt him the most (seeing by that point 50% of all loyalist Astartes alive were Ultramarines) and was proved right on the spot by Dorn's petulant almost-rebellion, you give examples of him giving all powers away when no one could have stopped him from taking it for himself and it's somehow isn't selfless? rolleyesclean.gif


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#58
bluntblade

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I'd say Guilliman is more a case of someone who's not selfless but supremely aware of his duty to others.

One could also make an argument for Ferrus being relatively selfless, but in a less altruistic way.

#59
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Guilliman, easily.

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#60
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Konrad Curze was the most selfless one. He wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty, he had to become not the hero we wanted but the one we needed and in the end he died for humanity sins.
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#61
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Most selfless Primarch award goes to Sanguineus, he foresaw his own death his whole life, was haunted by it in fact, and when push came to shove he faced it head on knowing it would be his end. I know I could never do that. Vulcan has been mentioned also, and while he is/was incredibly selfless, I’d say I’d attribute to him humanitarianism, valuing the life’s of all of those he fought for and fought alongside, especially those who couldn’t fight for themselves. I think those two Primarchs are the ones I would aspire to be more like. Also regarding Sanguinius, in his most honest moments of clarity, Horus acknowledged that the Angel had all the positive attributes of their father, where as all the others only possessed one or several of them, and it was him who in fact should have been made Warmaster.
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I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#62
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It’s hard to make a case for most of the traitor Primarchs since the vast majority have no redeeming values. Magnus being one exception.
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#63
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While not a redeeming feature per se, I often feel Angron’s is the most tragic tale of the traitor Primarchs, and if it hadn’t have been for the nails, which he did refuse to have removed mind you, his story probably would have been very different, as would that of his legion. But he basically had no chance.
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I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#64
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While not a redeeming feature per se, I often feel Angron’s is the most tragic tale of the traitor Primarchs, and if it hadn’t have been for the nails, which he did refuse to have removed mind you, his story probably would have been very different, as would that of his legion. But he basically had no chance.


I don't know if it is a retcon of older fluff but Master of Mankind makes it clear that even the Emperor couldn't remove the Nails without killing Angron. Of course the Nails were killing him slowly anyway. The Emperor was faced with the choice of euthanising him or letting him go down in a blaze of glory. He chose the latter as it would (hopefully) allow Angron to accomplish something before his death.

Angron is one of the most tragic Primarchs as he had the psychic power to alleviate the pain of others. He was meant to be some sort of angel of healing. Until the Nails ripped out that part of his brain. sad.png
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#65
jaxom

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While not a redeeming feature per se, I often feel Angron’s is the most tragic tale of the traitor Primarchs, and if it hadn’t have been for the nails, which he did refuse to have removed mind you, his story probably would have been very different, as would that of his legion. But he basically had no chance.


I don't know if it is a retcon of older fluff but Master of Mankind makes it clear that even the Emperor couldn't remove the Nails without killing Angron. Of course the Nails were killing him slowly anyway. The Emperor was faced with the choice of euthanising him or letting him go down in a blaze of glory. He chose the latter as it would (hopefully) allow Angron to accomplish something before his death.

Angron is one of the most tragic Primarchs as he had the psychic power to alleviate the pain of others. He was meant to be some sort of angel of healing. Until the Nails ripped out that part of his brain. sad.png

 

 

I can't remember off the top of my head, I think it's in Sons of the Emperor, but it's the Emperor telling Vulkan why he needs Vulkan. He needs a Primarch who can connect with humanity and Vulkan's time on Nocturne has given him that spark. There's enough evidence (trefoil, appearance, what happens when they get mad) that Vulkan and the 18th Legion were meant to be planet breakers while Angron and 12th were meant to be humanitarians.


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#66
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The real question for me is to what extent any Primarch is able to be selfless.

#67
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Jaxom, that's an interesting point and I'm nowhere up to date with the BL books, but I think the XII being humanitarians clashes a bit with their pre-Angron portrayal in the FW books, where they seemed to be quite brutal, but without the senseless bloodthirst that came with him and the spread of the Butcher's Nails. However, I think it would be a nice nod to the empath side of Angron to have a War Hound character manifesting a similar psychic power in a FW book. I guess a Knight-errant might be the easiest option to fit lore-wise, but if I recall correctly there are already a few XII characters amongst their ranks.

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#68
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No one aside from Guilliman has experienced the heart break of seeing the dream of the Imperium be completely shattered, and yet has remained selfless and dutiful.

He awoke to a nightmare. In his eyes everything his brothers and father set out to do has failed. To remain loyal, focused on job and to do his part in this situation, alone, with no one to relate to is more difficult that a glorious self sacrifice in battle.

To die in the fires of Horus' ambition would have been easier, and better for his heart than to see mankind reduced to what it has become in M41. Those were his words.

He could be a tyrant, he could abandon the fight, he could end his own life. He has already given his life for the Imperium once.
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#69
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Well, sure, he's the only primarch that has seen the state of the imperium in M41 and remained faithful (so to speak). But then he's also the only primarch active in M41. Without at least another primarch around it's a bit easy to say he's the only one to react the way he did...


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#70
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It’s not easy at all. Each one is very unique.
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#71
Ishagu

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Well, sure, he's the only primarch that has seen the state of the imperium in M41 and remained faithful (so to speak). But then he's also the only primarch active in M41. Without at least another primarch around it's a bit easy to say he's the only one to react the way he did...


True, but he was also a Primarch who focused on the Empire and humanity, more so than most.

Will the Lion care as much about trillions living in squalor? Doubtful.

Few Primarchs cared about the people or the human empire the same way beyond victories in War.

Edited by Ishagu, 15 December 2019 - 06:40 PM.

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#72
jaxom

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Jaxom, that's an interesting point and I'm nowhere up to date with the BL books, but I think the XII being humanitarians clashes a bit with their pre-Angron portrayal in the FW books, where they seemed to be quite brutal, but without the senseless bloodthirst that came with him and the spread of the Butcher's Nails.

Very true, but they also had the greatest sense of brotherhood and camaraderie. If Vulkan could make the 18th into the Salamanders then I think a no-nails Angron could have made something amazing out of the 12th. 

 

 

Well, sure, he's the only primarch that has seen the state of the imperium in M41 and remained faithful (so to speak). But then he's also the only primarch active in M41. Without at least another primarch around it's a bit easy to say he's the only one to react the way he did...


True, but he was also a Primarch who focused on the Empire and humanity, more so than most.

Will the Lion care as much about trillions living in squalor? Doubtful.

Few Primarchs cared about the people or the human empire the same way beyond victories in War.

 

I think it's safe to say, that of the primarchs who actually cared at all, they cared about people as a means of fulfilling the Imperial Truth and setting the foundations for the Emperor's Imperium as they interpreted it. The humane primarchs were motivated primarily to alleviate the suffering of humanity. Almost all the rest saw it as a matter of unification, but without regard to the to details of what the entire Imperium looks like afterward. Guilliman is unique in that he included infrastructure in that vision. I think he was very humane before the Imperium came to Macragge, became less humane while leading the Ultramarines, and then more humane after his revival.


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#73
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Clearly Perturabo, he gave the Imperial Army the great honor of being in the vanguard of his attacks; first in, last out. teehee.gif


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#74
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He casually killed an entire squad of Deathshroud without a second thought. He is about as low as it gets.
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