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Psychic Awakening: The Ritual of the Damned

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#576
deTox

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Lore wise didn't TS just get orbital bombarded to death by the GK and just plainly lost? That was my understanding, even if in the past Magnus destroyed fleats shielded planets and had himself a flat that could rival the whole of Gulliman's crusade... Now he could not react to a simple bombardment... Love GW
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#577
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I came to the conclusion of using a splash of magic (Goat squad or Cultist squad depending) with a single Exalted on Disc in the HQ slot for that patrol. Magic, give him warlord and the relic. He is our nuke-sniper and can zip around causing problems all game. Its a nice easy slot-in for something *Very* useful. 

 

Primary detachment I am looking at is actually a Brigade! Starts you with 15 CP and means we can take advantage of all the new nice strats. Debating Duplicity or Time.... to be fair its a good problem to have and we actually fill out Brigades fairly well. 

 

HOWEVER! a thought occurred to me regarding our issue with AT weaponry. One included a Triple heavy support slot (in my case it ended up being a predator, a land raider, and Forgefiend or defiler geared for long range AT) then you take the Exalted on Disc with the Cult of Knowledge. All you need is the spell. That spell is a *REAL* winner for us since it gives us 24 inch RR'1s.  This would also of course with work triple helbrutes or contemptors with plenty of AT guns. This might be a substantial buffer for our lists for damage dealing in one of our detachments. 

 

I figured this has potential on the table, tag a big nasty target and blast it with RR'1s to wound and hit.  Thoughts?

How about a Prophecy Daemon Prince + 3 tanks? Have him hang out with the Prophecy spell, Gaze of Fate, and the Brazier and just throw out rerolls for days, including on Damage in some cases. should help Lascannons out.


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#578
Skerr

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Those are both some good uses of the patrol detachment.

I played around with the brigade as well but I only have a couple of Heavy Support options and no cultists so it was Battalion for me.

Heck a battalion and and a couple of patrols would be fun. Even cult of mutation could be one of a couple patrols for cc focused exalted.
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#579
Zodd1888

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Really dig the Crest from Change.
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#580
Skerr

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On Cult of Magic is the WLT once a game?

#581
Archaeinox

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On Cult of Magic is the WLT once a game?

 

It triggers each time you cause 1 or more mortals on a unit

 

 

638d9e84-thousand-sons-cult-scheming-and

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know, with each rubric unit in my desired 2 battalions getting a new power as an option, they might be casting that (or mini smite) and I might for once give Ahriman Weaver of Fates. It will damn near always go off. I usually just say all my All is Dust units have Weaver for ease of book keeping.


Edited by Archaeinox, 21 January 2020 - 02:45 AM.

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"You're a wizard, Ahri"

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#582
Prot

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Since everyone knows the power it makes it easier to give basic, repeating powers to Rubrics.  I still think Magic is just so specific and confined to the Warlord for true maximizing, I just try to keep the magic Detachment minimal. 
 

for instance I’ve played Duplicity in a larger detachment and it feels much more powerful to have everyone knowing that, as opposed to Astral Blast for example.  
 

I really struggled tonight with Magic and Duplicity, but it was more the fact I expanded my use of Rubrics and SOT that made the game far more difficult. I’m not sure if that’s going to be the right ( competitive) direction for me in the future. 
 

although it is becoming very apparent to me that my initial thoughts that Thousand Sons soup will most definitely feature min maxed Magic Detachments in the future. Easily the quickest return on investment with very little thought.... the pinnacle of a competitive choice. 


Edited by Prot, 21 January 2020 - 04:34 AM.

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#583
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So I played two games.

 

I did two quick batreps on my blog using Magic, Cult of Time, and Duplicity in those two games.

 

 

Game 1 https://prot40k.blog...-the-new-rules/

Game 2 https://prot40k.blog...-the-new-rules/

 

In short, I won't 'spoil' the results, however a few early observations.

 

- It does feel more labour intensive. Knowing an extra power within a detachment is nice, but it's hard to remember if I used it in a certain detachment or not, and who belongs to that detachment.

- further to that. Might I suggest it is dumb to have this be a detachment based restriction... in fact I hate it. This means I have to remember which Rubric is in which detachment, etc, etc. It just feels clunky and without real merit. 

- I think there's really only 1 winner here. I'll keep testing, but largely the tools given here are nothing like the power bump of Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Chaos Legions, and especially Eldar. It's frustrating in comparison. However in a fishbowl, this is fun stuff. Truly.

- Perfidious Tome. I was wrong. This fun, and the potential is large than the Helm of the Third eye. Although that potential will often not be fulfilled, when it is, it is fun.

- A big one for me... the cost of these powers is too high for Thousand Sons. The Eldar got incredible replacements for Smite (replacing baby smite on their units is a nobrainer) Their powers work on a wide variety of targets, and are easier to cast. Keep in mind they have Ghost Helm access, and aside from one character, it's actually costly for us to get +1 to cast.


Edited by Prot, 21 January 2020 - 03:01 PM.

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#584
Skerr

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Great write ups Prot and analysis. Dice gods were in full effect. Sometime massive firepower just gets unlucky when it comes to saves.

With Reanimation Protocols as a precedent I don't think a modified 9 would be too game breaking though I realize thats the Necrons appeal outside of great standard shooting. Plus with the strat to boost Invulns and the healing strat GW may have done it for game balance. Seems Times best value will be on SOTs due to 2 wounds.

Edited by Skerr, 21 January 2020 - 04:41 PM.

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#585
Prot

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Thanks for having a look. 

 

I agree the first game where I took Time, it was nice to renew a termie a turn. However I just don't like this detachment restriction. I would much rather know that a dude has replaced Smite with this power. Much cleaner. T

 

The underlying issue to me is that there are obviously good, and bad Cults to try. But since it is Detachment wide, it becomes a very tough sell to use a 'funsie' Cult when it's basically  a detachment wide decision. Here the eldar are plucking whichever power they want; add 2 to charges, add 2 to your target's psychic phase, deny an opponent a target (unless its closest).  These are powerful choices. They have low cast values, and they are spread throughout the army at will. 

 

Don't forget they also got Salamander re roll traits on top of that which is restricted to the detachment, but is much more akin to "Chapter Traits" and makes sense. Plus they are extremely potent. You will see these at LVO this year I'm sure.


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#586
Are Verlo

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Prot, during game 2 was there nowhere you could have redeployed to? Perhaps some other target you could reach with 24" range,fusillade and vets?

I have great plans for a «core» centered around a duplicity battalion in a small tournament and on paper the risen rubricae and duplicity WL trait seems very potent both for offence and defence.

#587
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Prot, during game 2 was there nowhere you could have redeployed to? Perhaps some other target you could reach with 24" range,fusillade and vets?

I have great plans for a «core» centered around a duplicity battalion in a small tournament and on paper the risen rubricae and duplicity WL trait seems very potent both for offence and defence.

If you redeploy you cannot Fusilade.  Trust me Fusilade is far more difficult to use than it appears. When the game is on and you have to make a tough decision like Moving or Fusilade it’s a tough choice. By turn 2 my squads were getting too small. I greatly over estimated my survival with +1 to invulnerable and All is Dust, and I greatly underestimated his overall survival vs -2 AP bolters. 
 

I did realize I should have jumped a squad of Scarabs out of CC with the Ctan. Again I really thought I could do damage there but I took a beating with Anti matter Meteor combined with his 4 up invuln. 


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#588
Are Verlo

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Yes you can fusilade, as long as you go first.
Redeploy before movement and then stay still in the movement

Note: redeploy via duplicity WLT, the psychic power clearly says the unit counts as moving. So no fusilade after casting the duplicity power.

#589
Prot

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Yes you can fusilade, as long as you go first.
Redeploy before movement and then stay still in the movement

Note: redeploy via duplicity WLT, the psychic power clearly says the unit counts as moving. So no fusilade after casting the duplicity power.

okay I misunderstood you. So on that batrep I’m pretty sure I even took a picture of my Redeployed 15 man rubric squad which did in fact Fusilade with VotLW against Immortals and Destroyers. So yes, I did do that against my desired target however I did it with Risen Rubricae.  I saw no point in using the pre game redeploy because he had a Ctan so he would have countered it and I had a fantastic target with the Rubricae anyway. 
 

in fact I’d say the second game could not  have set up any better for me with that start. 


Edited by Prot, 21 January 2020 - 09:20 PM.

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#590
deTox

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Note: redeploy via duplicity WLT, the psychic power clearly says the unit counts as moving. So no fusilade after casting the duplicity power.


Note though that the WL trait only allows you to redeploy following the mission deployment rules, which generally means only in your deployment zone so also very likely out of range, only way to forward deploy and shoot is Risen Rubricae

#591
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Yes that is correct. I did point this out to my opponent before the game yet he seemed oddly okay with keeping his Destroyers where they were. 


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#592
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Note: redeploy via duplicity WLT, the psychic power clearly says the unit counts as moving. So no fusilade after casting the duplicity power.

Note though that the WL trait only allows you to redeploy following the mission deployment rules, which generally means only in your deployment zone so also very likely out of range, only way to forward deploy and shoot is Risen Rubricae

Combine risen rubricae with the duplicity trait?
If you go second you can pull the rubrics back to a better position if you like.

#593
Guzzlrr

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Great write up Prot, Im gonna try Cult of Magic and Cult of Duplicity with a cheeky Dark matter anti crystal. im glad the tome went well i imagined that would be good.

 

Playing my Very competitive Crimson Fist friend,  so i have a funny feeling it wont do too well but looking forward to trying it out


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#594
Heliomanes

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I'm having trouble deciding which relics to start with. Ideally I'd want 3, but the cp cost for the third seems prohibitively expensive now that I think I prefer the batallion + supreme command + patrol format.

Black matter crystal pairs well with risen rubricae and the duplicity spell. Allows us to take board control turn 1 with most of our big units.
The Crest can buff (and save!) our spells and deny our opponents. I think it's huge, and a good excuse to bring an exalted sorc on disc, so you have a 18' inch buff/debuff radius wherever you want it.
The cult of magic relic pairs so well with the +1 damage warlord trait... But maybe this is the weakest link in the chain, if forced to choose? Games are won through positioning, rarely through a single +1 to cast.

Have you guys been having similar thoughts when planning lately?


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#595
Archaeinox

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Have you guys been having similar thoughts when planning lately?

 

 

Yes, I've been forcing myself to just pick a cult and run with it. I've tried to stop mentally complaining about how cult tricks are typically locked to their detachment. In the future, I'll be running the Change relic and Magic supremes etc.. But for now I'm keeping it simple.

 

 

On Saturday a friend and I will be showcasing the new rules @ 1500pts in a CA2019 Maelstrom mission. He plays Grey Knights. I think he only owns a single Dreadknight but in any case I think he can bring whatever he wants for the most part thanks to his collection. For now, here's my initial thoughts (note the number of units):

 

1500pts Thousand Sons:

 

Cult of Duplicity Battalion Detachment

 

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch

 

Sorcerer w/ Perfidious Tome  (Warlord: Duplicitious Tactician)

 

Sorcerer w/ Warpflamer Pistol (High Magister trait via Magister stratagem, might take Dark Matter Crystal if I feel like deploying Scarabs and shooting them up the field)

 

9 Scarab Occult - Missile Rack

 

9 Rubric Marines

 

9 Rubric Marines

 

9 Rubric Marines

 

Lascannon Predator

 

Lascannon Predator

 

 

No plan is sometimes the best plan.. You can probably guess what powers stuff would have during a particular game so it's no use to list them since it can always change. Anyways this is just a friendly game to get accustomed to the rules so I want to keep it simple. I've been waiting years to be able to just get a teleport power. It's Eye of Terror all over again with Chosen of Ahriman and The Key. I figured if it's absolutely necessary, a sorcerer can make a Predator bug out to safety if it needs to.


Edited by Archaeinox, 22 January 2020 - 01:36 PM.

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#596
Prot

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I think you're going to have to try playing it out.

 

I'm having trouble deciding which relics to start with. Ideally I'd want 3, but the cp cost for the third seems prohibitively expensive now that I think I prefer the batallion + supreme command + patrol format.

Black matter crystal pairs well with risen rubricae and the duplicity spell. Allows us to take board control turn 1 with most of our big units.
The Crest can buff (and save!) our spells and deny our opponents. I think it's huge, and a good excuse to bring an exalted sorc on disc, so you have a 18' inch buff/debuff radius wherever you want it.
The cult of magic relic pairs so well with the +1 damage warlord trait... But maybe this is the weakest link in the chain, if forced to choose? Games are won through positioning, rarely through a single +1 to cast.

Have you guys been having similar thoughts when planning lately?

 

I've been actually playing the games, and I'm just cycling through the most interesting cults. As you know you can only theory hammer so long. Like I wrote in my batreps... Perfidious Tome was suprisingly fun/good. You'll have to play Duplicity with -your- list to see if you feel you need Dark Matter Crystal.

 

I had very large squads and since I wanted to try multiple things out, I simply dropped the Crystal and did not find I needed it. Since Crystal was a once per game thing, Duplicity feels quite a bit better. I found the odd time where I could have used both, but the extra damage is really good.

 

I wouldn't underestimate the extra damage on Magic. That's a great help for that Warlord. I did a super smite, rolled a 6 which turns to 7 mortal wounds. Add in Astral Blast and the D3 (+1) damage also works on the 'splash' damage meaning every subsequent hit is 2 more mortal wounds. 

 

I would always cast a 3rd power. I scrapped Infernal Gateway for Infernal Gaze halfway through the game and that's another potential D3 +1. 

 

I think you just gotta get your feet wet and go for it. Don't expect miracles first time out. There are going to be disappointments. (I know I've kind of come 'down' from the original expectation of this release). 


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#597
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I'm having trouble deciding which relics to start with. Ideally I'd want 3, but the cp cost for the third seems prohibitively expensive now that I think I prefer the batallion + supreme command + patrol format.

Black matter crystal pairs well with risen rubricae and the duplicity spell. Allows us to take board control turn 1 with most of our big units.
The Crest can buff (and save!) our spells and deny our opponents. I think it's huge, and a good excuse to bring an exalted sorc on disc, so you have a 18' inch buff/debuff radius wherever you want it.
The cult of magic relic pairs so well with the +1 damage warlord trait... But maybe this is the weakest link in the chain, if forced to choose? Games are won through positioning, rarely through a single +1 to cast.

Have you guys been having similar thoughts when planning lately?

I'm very happy that you've brought this up as this is the same dilemma I'm having right now and it sounds to me like it's a good topic for discussion, spending 3CP on relics + 1CP for extra trait sounds like way too much in an army with no more then 14 CP to begin with so evaluating relics becomes extra important.

 

So first thing would be the Dark Matter Crystal, how mandatory is it? before Pa imho it was pretty much a must take, now Risen/Duplicity spell offset it a little...but it's still such a powerful effect and also the only way to drop a Tzaangor bomb turn 1, which has been the core of my game plan all the time until now, it gives a must deal with problem to the opponent which gives time to the rest of your army to position, plus they are just deadly with fight twice...moral of the story is leaving home without a DMC will make me feel pretty bad.

 

While for the Magic Cult relic...I would agree that it's probably the least impactful BUT if you're taking Cult of Magic and taking the trait imho it's a must take, just because you're betting so much on that character pushing out that damage that you really need the spells to go off and minimise the odds of getting denied, that +1 imho it's a necessary evil because of the rest of the investment

 

The a question I'd have to you guys is, given that most of the new rules are under the form of strats, plus the general command re-rolls and the old good strats that tend to be used almost every turn (Cabalistic Focus and Extra Cast come to mind) how important it is to have a CP generation relic? namely Helm or the new Tome, to me it sounds like something that would be reeeeeally handy, but if I'd have to pay 2 extra CP to get one they would hardly even pay themselves back during the game 

 

Atm I'll try to go with Magic Relic on the Magic Warlord and a DMC if I'm running Tzaangors, but I'm also thinking to drop Tzaangors and it that case I'd probably drop the DMC in favour of the Tome, really love the Crest...but I don't see myself playing a Cult of Change detachment ever


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#598
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Lots of good points here. I'll get some practice games in and report back. I think I have a strong tendency to lean too heavily into the alpha strike, so maybe I should let the black matter crystal be and set myself up for playing the long game rather than fall for the temptation again. Still, it is pretty fun that we could potentially infiltrate 20 rubrics, black matter crystal 10 Scarab occult, and teleport a leviathan - all turn 1.


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#599
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Arch, I know it seems like heresy to mention this but I would be somewhat concerned for your Ahriman on Disc and having the demon key word against GK.

It's the only faction that i have considered not taking discs against. Otherwise I always take discs on Ahri and 1 or 2 Exalteds.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes.

Edited by Skerr, 22 January 2020 - 02:52 PM.

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#600
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Lots of good points here. I'll get some practice games in and report back. I think I have a strong tendency to lean too heavily into the alpha strike, so maybe I should let the black matter crystal be and set myself up for playing the long game rather than fall for the temptation again. Still, it is pretty fun that we could potentially infiltrate 20 rubrics, black matter crystal 10 Scarab occult, and teleport a leviathan - all turn 1.

 

That's a good point. I am starting to wonder if it's possible to really have a Thousand Sons army that alpha strikes with any appreciable damage in T1 IF you are using pure TS, with a lot of the new rules.  So far my games have been very lack luster in T1. 

 

 

Arch, I know it seems like heresy to mention this but I would be somewhat concerned for your Ahriman on Disc and having the demon key word against GK.

It's the only faction that i have considered not taking discs against. Otherwise I always take discs on Ahri and 1 or 2 Exalteds.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes.

 

 

 

 

That's a good point, but I'm just going to be honest... I think the GK flat out Smite damage is a complete flip of damage on us. Their limiting factor is 'range' which can be manipulated to match our 24" which puts us on the back foot.

 

There's a good chance they will out assault us, and the ability to hit Daemon keyword now for 4 flat damage is bonkers. I would pretty much drop any daemon keyword...except for the Disk guys since they can hide easily. 

 

Shooting wise they'll have a lot more to shoot typically with all the stormbolters, but we have the AP. 

 

I think GK are a very hard match up now.  

 

So what do we have that they don't? Chaff. Psykery comes before shooting. I'd probably buffer the zone with Cultists which will basically be nearly wiped in T1 but save you (potentially) a lot of dead termies (1 per smite guaranteed!) and Rubrics.


Edited by Prot, 22 January 2020 - 03:12 PM.

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