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White Scars vs Blood Angels

White Scars Blood Angels

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#1
MeltaRange

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I play White Scars and Blood Angels, and I'm having a very hard time right now getting excited about the Sons of Sanguinius now that the new SM Codex and Blood of Baal have both dropped.  While I love my Blood Angels the best, looking at both armies, White Scars just seem straight up superior and more fun/tactical/rewarding to play.  I was going to make a pros/cons list, but after thinking about it, I'm not sure it's really even relevant because BA seem to lose in almost every category.  The only one I can think of really is superior survivability in a mid-field slug fest. (and a few other things, obviously, but I'm talking major themes)
 
I think the biggest thing for me right now is that White Scars can easily emulate Blood Angels abilities (Kar'sarro Khan, Ancient w/ Eagle Banner, Plume of the Plainsrunner) to make an absolutely frightening assault force rivaling BA, but there is absolutely no way that BA can make up for the lack of Advance/Fall Back & Charge, and don't have access to anything like Encirclement or Lightning Debarkation.  White Scars feel adaptable; Blood Angels feel static and pigeon-holed into racing to assault.  Devastating Charge vs. Savage Echoes is certainly a matter of subjectivity, but I am in the camp that DC is better overall, while acknowledging that SE is better with certain units/weapons.  The Stormspeaking Discipline blows Sanguinary out of the water.  Additionally, BA miss out on some of the best options Codex Marines get such as:
  • Centurions
  • Thunderfire Cannons / Tremor Shells
  • Chapter Master upgrade
  • Faith and Fury character upgrades
 
Even the vaunted Captain Slamguinius is given a run for his money by Smash-Khan. (I personally think the WS version is better)
 
While this might seem like a crying thread, it's really not trying to be - what I think I need here is some objective counters to my thoughts so I can feel better about Blood Angels right nowWhat are you excited about?  What kind of army are you planning on taking?  What are some cool tricks or tips you're interested in playing around with?
 
I'll always love my BA and will continue to play them in narrative campaigns and friendly games from time to time to switch it up.  But right now they just feel so predictable and tactically static.  Blood of Baal did next to nothing to improve that, IMO.  What do you think?


#2
Blindhamster

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You're probably right. But I still prefer Blood Angel's. They have much better lore and the models look better.

A note. Devastating charge only works if scars are the aggressor. Savage echoes is always on in first round. May seem minor but means you cant tet around BA being good in first round. You absolutely can get around scars by being the aggressor.

Same is true of khan and only in a 6" bubble.

Banner and plume are also bubbles.

I agree they replicate abilities BA get, either equally as bubbles or always on, to me I feel like the BA are safer as they dont rely on the charge, simply getting into combat. And whilst some abilities are indeed bubbles, the army doesn't need to be all eggs in one basket - for scars to be the same they need to bunch stuff up into an old school deathstar.


Sanguinary guard are pretty great with the rules updates, albeit CP hungry.

Our captain smash remains good too (still one or the top ones again, alongside scars I think).

Death company are very good.

Sanguinary priests provide the strength boost without spending CP.

Our captains can ignore overwatch with the right relic.

Our special issue ammo is hilarious lol.



We lack the character upgrade options, but have almost all those characters as standard and they dont cost CP and have pretty nice extras.

Edited by Blindhamster, 02 December 2019 - 07:00 PM.

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Blood Angels 3rd Company Wins 25 Draws 5 Losses 13

Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
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#3
Panzer

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Dunno, I think we have the superior melee units and have a much easier time delivering them with the +1 to charges and 3d6 charge stratagem. That's where Blood Angels really shine compared to other Marines. The rest is just gravy.


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#4
brother_b

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Well number of attacks and bonuses to wound are huge for melee and I’m not sure anybody can stack them for the loyalists like blood angels. It sounds like white scars have a lot of neat tricks for moving about and trapping people in melee. That’s great too, and keeps with their whole hit and run attack background.
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#5
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You're not wrong, Melta. 

After having played RavenGuard for a tournament, I'm in a similar boat. 

Their rules are without any doubt superior. 


BA hit harder, for sure. No doubt.  But, they have more options in getting there, and getting around - and the successor system pushes them over the edge. 


My advice would be this .....


Play the models you like, with the rules you like.  The BA are more than just their rules-set, they are an entire history and background.  I will continue to dabble too, for ultra competitive tournaments, I'll take the RG, but will continue trying to make the BA work. 

 


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#6
Panzer

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Play the models you like, with the rules you like.  The BA are more than just their rules-set, they are an entire history and background.

 

^this

Pretty much the best advice one can give for Warhammer in general. Rules change all the time. Background and history rarely changes if ever.


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#7
MeltaRange

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Appreciate the responses.  You guys are right, of course, about the lore and beauty of the army.  I would never "shelve" the army or anything like that.  I would never give up on them.  I guess I'm just disappointed is all.  It's less "I want it to be a super powerful rule set like Iron Hands" and more "I feel like Blood Angels are so predictable that there isn't much room for tactical play" if that makes sense.  Perhaps I need to rethink my army to make it more adaptable.
 
A really great example is Mephiston.  He's a beatstick, and a good one - which is great - but at the same time in 100% of your games you're taking Unleash Rage, Wings, and Quickening and then charging him in with Red Rampage.  There's no real subtlety to him, or any rules that place him apart from other Psykers, even though he's considered one of if not the most powerful psykers in the Imperium.
 
Maybe I'll play around a bit with Vanguard Marines.  Perhaps going heavy on those, alongside things like Lord of Deceit and combined with Forlorn Fury, would give me the flexibility I seek.

Well number of attacks and bonuses to wound are huge for melee and I’m not sure anybody can stack them for the loyalists like blood angels. It sounds like white scars have a lot of neat tricks for moving about and trapping people in melee. That’s great too, and keeps with their whole hit and run attack background.

 

Yeah, exactly.  I guess I expect BA to be a little more this and a little less World Eaters.  Ya know?



#8
Blindhamster

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Blood Angel's have their own tricks, but they arent new. Stuff like the forlorn fury to surprise move. Upon wings of fire to totally reposition a key unit, the 3d6 charge ability.

They're all tactical tools.

It sounds more to me like you just wanted the advance and charge option? But that would take away from white scars which would be sad. It fits them better than us ultimately. In all BA history dante is the only character to ever have hit and run - maybe he should have granted it in a bubble, that would have been cool.

BA are going to play similarly to other marines, with a few tricks here and there, most of those tricks are aimed at close combat. BA are interesting because they dont rely on charging in the same way other marine close combat armies tend to, I feel like its overlooked that our abilities trigger even if we get charged too. So you can afford to advance and shoot with units and setup ploys to get charged. Etc

Primaris Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2

Blood Angels 3rd Company Wins 25 Draws 5 Losses 13

Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
Blood Angels 4th company: Wins 10 Draws 3 Losses 4

 

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#9
MeltaRange

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It sounds more to me like you just wanted the advance and charge option? But that would take away from white scars which would be sad. It fits them better than us ultimately. In all BA history dante is the only character to ever have hit and run - maybe he should have granted it in a bubble, that would have been cool.

BA are going to play similarly to other marines, with a few tricks here and there, most of those tricks are aimed at close combat. BA are interesting because they dont rely on charging in the same way other marine close combat armies tend to, I feel like its overlooked that our abilities trigger even if we get charged too. So you can afford to advance and shoot with units and setup ploys to get charged. Etc

 

It's more Fall Back & Charge that I'm missing big time, but yeah, having a stratagem, or WL trait or something to Advance & Charge would be very welcomed.  On top of that, BA have literally nothing to help their vehicles (especially Transports) make it there faster, survive better, or deploy their cargo better.  Impulsors could be an option.

 

Good point on receiving a charge.  Thanks Blindhamster.  The wheels are turning a bit.



#10
Remtek

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I played in a tournament recently with 2 white scar captains and 2 BA captains, white scar captains were great utility, but where underwhelming in combat, even with dmg 4. You can have one strong captain if you stack d3 attacks with +1 to hit and wound vs monsters/veichle.

 

BA captains having the built in +1 to wound combined with things like relic thunderhammer are just so reliable and death visions when fighting twice is an ekstra 2 attacks. I found myself hitting and wounding on 3s alot with WS captain so you are usually only doing 2-3 wounds. But they have much better psychic powers and synergise better as an army having access to tfire cannons, cents etc.

 

What i have liked about BA is you don't need to postion your hammer unit in cohort with support characters as much making them much more flexible. If you want a turn 1 hammer give them +1 to hit from astrorath and then re-deploy them. Have 10 sanguinary guard with a 'fake' warlord for free re-rolls. I think they did quite a good job internally balancing the different chapters, now lets hope they do not become too powerful teehee.gif



#11
brother_b

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I feel like Blood Angels are so predictable that there isn't much room for tactical play" if that makes sense.  Perhaps I need to rethink my army to make it more adaptable.
 
A really great example is Mephiston.  He's a beatstick, and a good one - which is great - but at the same time in 100% of your games you're taking Unleash Rage, Wings, and Quickening and then charging him in with Red Rampage.  There's no real subtlety to him, or any rules that place him apart from other Psykers, even though he's considered one of if not the most powerful psykers in the Imperium.

 Your quote exemplifies BA to me. They are master artificers and artists. They’re so beautiful and stylish I’m sure the average BA Marine could have his own show on one of those home design TV channels. ;p

But in combat, artsy style goes out the door. I know I’m combining fluff and actual in game mechanics, we all know Dante is a renowned tactician. But for the game they are an assault army. BA favor brutal assault style and they do that well.

If you want to enjoy a different style of play then yes choose another chapter.

Personally I think you can get some of the same fulfillment you desire tactically with your blood angels; like how to maximize their assault, how to minimize casualties, how to incorporate non-assault elements for a supportive role. To me that’s where the fun comes.

Good luck!

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#12
Panzer

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To be fair, almost every army is predictable in 40k as long as you know what they are capable of.


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#13
MeltaRange

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I feel like Blood Angels are so predictable that there isn't much room for tactical play" if that makes sense.  Perhaps I need to rethink my army to make it more adaptable.
 
A really great example is Mephiston.  He's a beatstick, and a good one - which is great - but at the same time in 100% of your games you're taking Unleash Rage, Wings, and Quickening and then charging him in with Red Rampage.  There's no real subtlety to him, or any rules that place him apart from other Psykers, even though he's considered one of if not the most powerful psykers in the Imperium.
 

 Your quote exemplifies BA to me. They are master artificers and artists. They’re so beautiful and stylish I’m sure the average BA Marine could have his own show on one of those home design TV channels. ;p

But in combat, artsy style goes out the door. I know I’m combining fluff and actual in game mechanics, we all know Dante is a renowned tactician. But for the game they are an assault army. BA favor brutal assault style and they do that well.

If you want to enjoy a different style of play then yes choose another chapter.

Personally I think you can get some of the same fulfillment you desire tactically with your blood angels; like how to maximize their assault, how to minimize casualties, how to incorporate non-assault elements for a supportive role. To me that’s where the fun comes.

Good luck!

 

 

I think that overall in game I am more drawn to the White Scars playstyle.   Hard for me to admit that, but true.  I suppose it's fine to have a first love and also someone who you're more compatible with msn-wink.gif

 

To be fair, almost every army is predictable in 40k as long as you know what they are capable of.

 

That's definitely fair.  



#14
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Are BA the hardest hitting loyalists in melee? How about the Space Puppies?

#15
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We wont know till they get their doctrines

Primaris Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2

Blood Angels 3rd Company Wins 25 Draws 5 Losses 13

Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
Blood Angels 4th company: Wins 10 Draws 3 Losses 4

 

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#16
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Currently we hit harder and slightly faster than the wolves but they hit more accurately. They will no doubt get a second part to their CT and a special doctrine bonus too, what that is I have no idea though.

 

At a guess? Something to do with characters fighting other characters or outflanking? 



#17
brother_b

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Are BA the hardest hitting loyalists in melee? How about the Space Puppies?

That would be interesting, running some tests of damage over time then broken down into damage per attack, damage per round or total damage, and damage per point.

Obviously would have to be similar units and gear, and then maybe optimized unit or best unit for the army to run tests on.

Edited by brother_b, 05 December 2019 - 07:19 PM.

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#18
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Are BA the hardest hitting loyalists in melee? How about the Space Puppies?

That would be interesting, running some tests of damage over time then broken down into damage per attack, damage per round or total damage, and damage per point.

Obviously would have to be similar units and gear, and then maybe optimized unit or best unit for the army to run tests on.

 

 

If you want to hit Hard rather than Fast, the Flesh Tearers look to be at their best in that aspect with what they got in the supplement.


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#19
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I am genuinely curious how things will shake out for both SW and DA.

I have a feeling that they will not get Doctrines as we know them, but have similar effects. I.e. DA have Ravenwing protocol where RW get all the buffs, Deathwing protocol where DW get the buffs, etc... SW I think will have only 1-2 buffs, but they will be active all the time.

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#20
Morticon

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Are BA the hardest hitting loyalists in melee? How about the Space Puppies?

That would be interesting, running some tests of damage over time then broken down into damage per attack, damage per round or total damage, and damage per point.

Obviously would have to be similar units and gear, and then maybe optimized unit or best unit for the army to run tests on.

 

 

 

20 regular attacks vs MEQ see us statistically favourable.  Regular (non modified) attacks see us with more damage output.  This escalates in turn 3 dramatically.

 

 

The only place we lose out is fist/hammer attacks  (unless there's a Chaplain and we're vs. T5 or higher - in which case we go into the lead again, even if the wolves have a Chaplain!)


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#21
Charlo

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I am genuinely curious how things will shake out for both SW and DA.

I have a feeling that they will not get Doctrines as we know them, but have similar effects. I.e. DA have Ravenwing protocol where RW get all the buffs, Deathwing protocol where DW get the buffs, etc... SW I think will have only 1-2 buffs, but they will be active all the time.


Well Deathwing and Ravenwing already get morale immunity and Jink saves respectively.

I think the point is all Chapters will now get Doctrines at a base level but the super doctrines will change.

I think DAs will be in Tactical and maybe be an extra Bolter shot or something. That suits all of their stuff then.

#22
Blindhamster

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I am genuinely curious how things will shake out for both SW and DA.

I have a feeling that they will not get Doctrines as we know them, but have similar effects. I.e. DA have Ravenwing protocol where RW get all the buffs, Deathwing protocol where DW get the buffs, etc... SW I think will have only 1-2 buffs, but they will be active all the time.

Well Deathwing and Ravenwing already get morale immunity and Jink saves respectively.

I think the point is all Chapters will now get Doctrines at a base level but the super doctrines will change.

I think DAs will be in Tactical and maybe be an extra Bolter shot or something. That suits all of their stuff then.

I'd honestly expect the dark Angel's to get something plasma related. Tactical doctrine causing plasma weapons to not overheat was my guess.
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Primaris Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2

Blood Angels 3rd Company Wins 25 Draws 5 Losses 13

Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
Blood Angels 4th company: Wins 10 Draws 3 Losses 4

 

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#23
Morticon

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it's weird that Iron Hands got their overwatch schtick from 7th.  Remember they had full BS OW with double demi companies - and 5+ overwatch otherwise.  Now that seems unlikely thanks to IH. 


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#24
Panzer

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I am genuinely curious how things will shake out for both SW and DA.

I have a feeling that they will not get Doctrines as we know them, but have similar effects. I.e. DA have Ravenwing protocol where RW get all the buffs, Deathwing protocol where DW get the buffs, etc... SW I think will have only 1-2 buffs, but they will be active all the time.

Well Deathwing and Ravenwing already get morale immunity and Jink saves respectively.

I think the point is all Chapters will now get Doctrines at a base level but the super doctrines will change.

I think DAs will be in Tactical and maybe be an extra Bolter shot or something. That suits all of their stuff then.

I'd honestly expect the dark Angel's to get something plasma related. Tactical doctrine causing plasma weapons to not overheat was my guess.

 

 

Sounds a bit broken, but GW have done worse things before so why not. :D


Edited by sfPanzer, 06 December 2019 - 04:20 PM.

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#25
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I am not expecting DA to get bonuses to plasma. That feels incredibly niche (even for the DA) and way too much of a one-liner “DA do plasma” approach. Every other chapter has gotten much broader buffs (to Heavy weapons, to melee attacks etc...) rather than just one unit type. Except the Salamanders, but GW has always been incredibly shortsighted with them and many of their Strategems (even post-nerf) somewhat make up for moar flamerz.

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