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CSM Legion Traits

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#1
jgascoine011

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Was having a wee think about what I would imagine CSM legion traits to be, if GW decides to follow the path of SM...which is absolutly should as its so frigging cool.

There are 2 thoughts behind my decisions.

1) Fluff should always trump strength (to an extent)

2) I have always imagined that the CSM should be somewhat stronger than CSM, BUT, should have inbuilt negatives to their lists. They have chosen to follow the paths of the dark gods and as such should be both blessed and cursed by them.

 

Anyway, here are my thoughts.

 

1st off cultits (& poxwalkers) should not benefit from any legion trait...they are cannon fodder and dont last long enough to recieve the anywhere near enoug training required. 

Also they should get different benefits to the marks of chaos that normal CSM would get...they are not quite devoted enough to recieve the full benefits.

 

Marks of Chaos

1) Khorne

- +1 Attack

- Re-roll hit rolls of 1s in combat (Cultits)

 

2) Nurgle

- +1 Thoughness (Infantry, Bikers, Characters and Hellbrutes Only)

- Re-roll 1s to wounds in shooting (Cultists)

 

3) Tzeentch

- 5+ Invun/+1 to Invun Saves (Max 3++ on Infantry and Bikers, Max 4++ on everything else)

- Re-roll saving throws of 1 (Cultists)

 

4) Slaanesh

- Always strike 1st in combat

- Re-roll 1s to wound in combat (Cultists)

 

5) Undivided

- Re-roll failed Ld (Both CSM & Cultits...they are not worshipping any god yet)

 

If all units in an army all have the same mark, then bezerkers, plaguemarines etc may be taken as troops. So pure khorne army may take bezerkers as troops.

 

 

Icon of Chaos

1) Khorne

 - Re-roll failed charges

 

2) Nurgle

 - Enemy units within 7" Always strike last in combat

 

3) Tzeentch

 - Roll a D6 for enemy units within 9"...on a 6 they take a mortal wound

 

4) Slaanesh

 - DTTFE works against any opponent, not just imperium.

 

5) Undivided

- +1 Ld

 

 

Stratagem - 1CP

Before the battle, any Icon may be upgraded for 1CP.

If the bearer is on the table at the START of the movment phase, reinforments may arrive within 6" of this bearer and more than 1" away from enemy units, regardless of other modifiers. All units must be within 6" when set up and still count as arriving from reserve for all other rules.

 

 

Legions

World Eaters

- Unmodified wound rolls of 6+ in combat are AP-4, unless it would be better (world eaters specific)

- Butchers Nails: 6+++ in combat (universal)

Doctrine (All units in army must be Khorne & World Eaters)

- Re-roll failed hit rolls in combat

- Any psychic test cast on a world eaters unit, or within 8" of a world eaters unit is automaticly denied on a D6 roll of 4+

- No psykers

Bezerker

- Must declare a charge if there is atleast 1 enemy unit within 8" (does not have to be on the closest unit however)

 

Death Guard

- Re-roll failed wound rolls with plague weapons (Death Guard specific)

- Do not suffer penatly for advance and firing assault weapons (Universal)

Doctrine

- DR: Every model gets 5+++

- Blight Bombardment: Every model equiped with a grenade may fire instead of firing a weapon.

Slow and Purposeful

- -1 to movement and half advance rolls

 

Emperors Children

-  Re-roll 1 failed saving through per unit per phase (EC Specific)

- +2 Advance and Charge (universal)

Doctrine

- Flawless Perfection: Re-roll 1 hit and wound roll per unit per phase

Vane

- Roll 2D6 for each unit in combat, if it is higher than Ld, enemy gets +1 to hit

 

Also Noise Marines get a new rule.

Sound of the apocalypse: When shooting at a unit that has been already been shot by another noise marine squad, all sonic weapons get +1S and -1Ap (Max 3 for both)

 

Thousand Sons

- Do not increase the casting of smite

- +1 to Cast & Deny (Univeral)

Doctine

- +1 to armour saves vs D1 & 2 weapons

-

Masters of the Warp?

 - Take a mortal wound each time a unit fails to cast one or more psychic tests

 

Also, any character or hellbrute may become a level 1 psyker for 15points, can cast/deny 1power/turn

 

Black Legion

- Always count as stationary when firing bolter weapons & all bolter weapons gain an additional -1AP

- May always advance the full distance (Universal)

Doctine

- DTTFE triggers on a 4+

- May fall back from combat and shoot. All non assult weapons suffer a -1 to hit when doing so

?

-

 

Terminators may be taken as troops

 

Night Lords

- Hidden in the Shaddows: Units in cover gain a additional +1 to cover saves

- Raptor Strike: Units arriving from reserve may re-roll failed hits that turn (universal)

Doctrine

- +1 to hit in combat if Ld is higher than enemy in combat

- +1 to wound in combat if you outnumber the enemy

Nostroman Blood

- Always lose an additional model when failing a Ld to moral

 

Also, raptors may be taken as troops in a pure night lords army.

And a new weapon: Nostroman Chain Glave - Can replace a chainsword or chainaxe for 1ppm. S:U Ap:- D:1 Can make an extra attack with the weapon. A unmodifed wound roll of 6+ is resolved at Ap-3 and D:2

 

Iron Warriors

- Ignores cover saves 

- Re-roll wound rolls of 1 vs buildings and vehicles in shooting. (Universal)

Doctrine

- Does not suffer the penatly for moving and shooting heavy weapons

- Cold: Units autmatically pass moral

Bitter

-

 

 

Still a few things I dont know about, and have left blank.

Let me know what you guys think.


Edited by jgascoine011, 02 December 2019 - 09:15 PM.


#2
Daemon Prince Marbas

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I think Iron Warriors should be able to take Basilisks again as well as Thunderfire Cannons and other artillery units. Breaching Charges or Cyclonic mines would also be cool.
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#3
techsoldaten

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Black Legion should be able to take Chosen and Terminators as troops.

 

Seriously, this would solve a lot of problems for the army. Deep Strike 4 5x Terminator squads for 80 Bolter Shots, spread across multiple units so your opponent can't just target the biggest one. Or 6 5x Plasma Chosen squads in Rhinos disembarking to gun down NuMarines.

 

I would rather have this than an revised Legion trait. Abaddon's reroll aura is usually enough of a buff for my armies.


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#4
Lord_Caerolion

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GW are moving away from having units changing what organization slot they occupy, as we can instead just take one of the other detachment types. What they could do is increase the number of CP you get from certain detachments instead.


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#5
Putrid Choir

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GW are moving away from having units changing what organization slot they occupy, as we can instead just take one of the other detachment types. What they could do is increase the number of CP you get from certain detachments instead.


That doesn't address objective secured rules though. Got to be a troop slot.

#6
MasterDeath

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I think the Legion Traits above are kinda complicated. Army traits have to be rarther simple, the weird stuff should be stratagems. If I had to revise the CSM Codex, I would go with the following

 

1. Death to the false Emperor: Change to "on a natural 6"

Yes a nerf, but a needed one. The new rules I saw were all on "natural 6", stacking +1 to hit is to powerful. Opens up the possibility for stratagems/Relics/Warlord Traits that improve on DttfE.

 

2. Cultists: Lose <Legion> Keyword, gain "Shadowy Allies" and "Expandable"

 

3. Expendable: If a hit by a ranged attack is allocated to a <Legion> Unit in 3", roll a d6, on a natural 6 allocate the hit to this unit instead.

Cultists are not part of the Legion. But with Expandable they can improve the suvivability of nearby Astartes and they are making ranged attacks on them unreliable.

 

4. Add "Legion Assault" to all <Legion> units

 

5. Legion Assault: 

- Add one attack to ranged attacks of Rapid Fire Weapons if the target unit is within half range (So a Rapid Fire 1 weapon generates 3 attack rolls if the target unit is within 12")

- Add +1 to the damage characteristic for Assault Weapons if the target unit is within half range (So a Flamer has D2 if the target unit is within 4")

- Ignore the -1 Penalty to hit for a Heavy Weapon if the target unit is within half range

- Improve the AP of a Pistole Weapon by -1 if the target unit is within half range and the AP of Melee Weapons by -1. (So Bolt Pistol would improve to AP -1 if the target unit is within 6")

- Edit: Add a Bonus of +1 to wound rolls for Grenade Weapons if the target unit is within half range

The Legions shouldn´t get Doctrines as the Loyalists do. They do not follow the Codex Astartes and instead they have their way older ways of fighting. Get close and mix it up.

 

6. Army Traits (finally) All Legion Models get these.

- Black Legion: If a Black Legion unit advanced, count all Rapid Fire Weapons as Assault Weapons. Ignore the -1 Penalty to hit for advancing and firing an Assault weapon. (That means instead of generating extra hits as a Rapid Fire Weapon, the Damage characteristic increases)

 

- Night Lords: Enemy units within 3" of this unit lower their Leadership characteristc by -1. (up to -3) If a Night Lord unit destroys and enemy Infantry unit in Melee, enemy units in 6" have to take a Morale Test. (This can trigger a wave of lost models if stacking penalties.)

 

- Alpha Legion: Enemy units attacking an Alpha Legion that is more than 12" away take a -1 penalty to there hit roll. Cultists in an Alpha Legion Detachement get the Alpha Legion Keyword (Its a good Trait, and Cultists can get all those Buffs.)

 

- Word Bearers: Units in a Word Bearers Unit cannot lose more than 1 model by a morale Test. Non-Legion Daemon units within 3" of a Word Bearer Infantry unit get "Expendable" (Just the usable variant of the morale trait and Daemons as Cannon Fodder)

 

- Iron Warriors: Ignore Cover and reroll Wound rolls for Buildings. If an Iron Warrior unit loses a wound, roll a D6 on a natural 6 the wound is not lost.

Ignore Cover is good, the Building part is just fluff. So they need a bit on top. I also thought about -1 to wound rolls for ranged attacks, but that could be to strong.

 

- Emperors Children: Always strike first and Emperors Children units get a +1 Bonus on their hit rolls if they charged, got charged or heroically intervened.

Always strike first is fitting but not that good. So they can a to hit Bonus on top.

 

- World Eaters: World Eater units get +1 to their Attack characteristic and a +1 Bonus on there Wound rolls if they charged or heroically intervened.

The current iteration tends to be misunderstood (a single bonus attack per phase), so just more wounds and more attacks.


Edited by MasterDeath, 05 December 2019 - 01:24 PM.


#7
Putrid Choir

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So death to the false emperor is overpowered, even though melee sucks compared to ranged in 8th and loyalist marines are same points but with way better army wide traits, mono army buffs and then another trait based on that? And you want alpha legion to not only keep arguably the most overpowered trait in the game (raven guard lost it), but let their cultist get it? Hahaha no offense but I'm glad you don't work for GW.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 05 December 2019 - 12:36 PM.

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#8
Iron Father Ferrum

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While I don't share Putrid's vitriol, I agree with his sentiment.

Oh, and it's "expendable."
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#9
Putrid Choir

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Iron Father is right, my tone was a little rude. I apologize for that. But I also see you want cultist to essentially be body guards too. Fluff wise it makes sense, they are just lambs for the slaughter, but I think most just want chaos to be equal/competitive not the new Iron Hands pre nerf.

#10
MasterDeath

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So death to the false emperor is overpowered, even though melee sucks compared to ranged in 8th and loyalist marines are same points but with way better army wide traits, mono army buffs and then another trait based on that? And you want alpha legion to not only keep arguably the most overpowered trait in the game (raven guard lost it), but let their cultist get it? Hahaha no offense but I'm glad you don't work for GW.

 

Never said DttfE is overpowered, just that it will probably changed that way as it seems to be the way now. I see you have criticism on Alpha Legion and the Army wide trait (we could add another layer for the legions, no problem) Do you have an idea? How would you change Alpha legion? Always in Cover over 12" or something similar? What do you think about the rest of the Army traits?

 

Iron Father is right, my tone was a little rude. I apologize for that. But I also see you want cultist to essentially be body guards too. Fluff wise it makes sense, they are just lambs for the slaughter, but I think most just want chaos to be equal/competitive not the new Iron Hands pre nerf.

 

Your tone was just standard internet, no problem. And yes, I think Cultist should be lambs to the slaughter. Its basically an additional 6+ save you have to pay for. Cant see how thats overpowered (if that was what you meant with the iron hands bit). On the other hand Cultists cant benefit from Buffs and most stratagems anymore.

 

The problem I had with the suggestions of the first poster was, that the Traits looked complicated (maybe they could be formulated different) and these army wide rules have to be simple to be remembered, else many people will constantly forget or misinterpret them. Same with marks. Think about this: A unit with Army rule, Legion trait, Mark rule. And now your opponent is playing a made-up Warband with non-standard color and the mark is not wisible on the model. Like unit A with MoK and Unit B (same Type) with MoS. Thats too much.

For the SM its just "I am Chapter xy" with either first founding rule (with baggage, but standardised baggage) or its a Successor with mixed traits (bad enough) and baggage (they get that, right?).



#11
Nazgob

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But I also see you want cultist to essentially be body guards too


**Laughs in Olympian**

Edited by Nazgob, 05 December 2019 - 03:18 PM.

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#12
Putrid Choir

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It's still no excuse for me to be an ass just cause it's the internet. I think the alpha legion trait could mirror the new raven guard one if they want to keep them stealth like. With cultists dropping back to 4pts, giving them a trait, specially -1 to be hit would be too much. I thought you originally put 4+ not 6+, but how you worded it let's them be body guards for anything, including vehicles. And if it's a rule on the datasheet, death guard get them too, which would give them a 5+++ and another 6+++ save. Again fluff wise it makes total sense, but on the table it would be too hard to implement without being overpowered. The Iron hands reference was when their supplement came out it was so much stronger then 99% of what is in the game. As long as it was mono, turn one iron hands entire army have 6+ FNP, hit on over watch 5+, double health for wound tables, -1ap on heavies, move and shoot heavies no penalty, reroll 1's for heavy, which as it stands still the strongest of all the loyalist Legions in terms of pure passive bonuses, but their new character also gave a 5++ aura which was too much, because it also effected vehicles. After the supplement came out I saw people flock to Iron hands to power game. The one iron hands guy I knew that played before the codex was actually upset with how strong it was because people gave him a hard time, even he thought all his bonuses were too much compared to the rest of the factions. I meant I don't think anyone in chaos wants to be head and shoulders stronger then the rest, they just want the codex creep / gap in power to be minimal. I personally would rather lose an extremely close match where every roll mattered then just run the table and have my opponent get tabled or forfeit.

None of the other traits you posted jump out as overpowered, the emperor's children and world eaters are fluffy and strong. Maybe a little too strong. Is your idea of legion assault the mono bonus? It's definitely too strong if not, because it would still allow chaos to pick and choose from other factions. The doctrine system might seem a little overpowered for space marines, but I love it's intention. A bonus for playing fluffy, giving loyalist marine players incentives for not bringing cheap imp guard screens/CP farming and knights and what not.

The original poster's traits are all overpowered it seems, and some confusing. In death guard he mentions taking 1" off their movement and halfing their advances. They already have 1 less movement then basic marines on their marines and half the advance on their terminator armor.

The mark idea is alot to remember but would make games more interesting. I see alot of players wanting the mark system back though for more then targeting with strats, spells and which relics they can take. I'm not sure of a good way of making that work though. But if it's giving things like toughness, it's got to replace the mono army buffs otherwise it's way over the top strong. Some people complain that they don't want chaos as SM with spikes, and they see marks over doctrines as how.
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#13
MasterDeath

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I see that the -1 to hit would be to much, the question is (as I am mainly in this game for the background) should Alpha Legion get a sneaky Trait? They are not sneaky in the sense of the Raven Guard, but more about infiltration. But I have no idea how that could look like. I never liked these mirrored Boni like Raven Guard/AL and IF/IW.

 

Deathguard and the expandable (yes, in Death Guard they can expand :D ) Cultists would be a problem, thats true. 3+, 5++ (Noctilith), 5+++ and 6++++ would get ridiculous. Maybe our Sorcerors could sacrifice Cultists for +1 to Psitests or something like that. I still think they shouldnt have a Legion Keyword.

 

I never realised how powerful the IH are atm, never played against them and I tend to avoid tournament level players on the table. It would be neither fun for them nor for me. " I personally would rather lose an extremely close match where every roll mattered then just run the table and have my opponent get tabled or forfeit." same for me.

 

"The mark idea is alot to remember but would make games more interesting. I see alot of players wanting the mark system back though for more then targeting with strats, spells and which relics they can take. I'm not sure of a good way of making that work though. But if it's giving things like toughness, it's got to replace the mono army buffs otherwise it's way over the top strong. Some people complain that they don't want chaos as SM with spikes, and they see marks over doctrines as how."

 

I like this idea. Marks as the Chaos wide rule. As long as it doesnt stop me from mixing Daemons and Mortals of course :D


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#14
Putrid Choir

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Alpha legion is sneaky in the sense of infiltration, misdirection and lies, which you're right it's different than the raven guard's "I'm hiding in the shadows and going to jump out at you when the time is right", but it would be hard to get a legion trait that could benefit every unit (or at least most) that had to do with infiltration and not be game breaking. I'll have to ponder on that and get back to you.

I think the mark system would be cool if they could do it right. Realistically it will never happen though. With what you said how there is no design difference really in the model to show for it, it could be all over the place. And then what would DG and TS get? Their units are already marked and their marines already reflect that (plague marines being T5 and DR and rubrics having their stuff).

I personally don't want daemons in my 2k pure DG list, I want it to play like a loyalist list. I would like some sort of mono bonus. Those two passives loyalist get, the -1AP for two weapons depending on the current doctrine and then the second chapter bonus is HUGE. Iron Hands get -1AP to heavy/grenades and move and shoot heavies and the reroll 1 for heavies. That's way better than their actual legion trait. You can kit Primaris stuff out in all heavy weapons. Their Intercessor have a heavy rifle. Dreads and tanks are almost all heavy. I want something similar in that synergy level and power. Doesn't have to be the exact same but something close in power and design.

But I do understand some chaos want daemons in their lists. Maybe there could be a mono bonus and summoned daemons would not effect it? Give a reason to summon or tweak the rules a bit for it.

At the very friggin least chaos needs better traits that are army wide. I play deathguard, I would love my crawlers to move and shoot without penalty and I would love for a mono bonus that gave DR to the other units. I've heard loyalist complain that disgustingly resilient would be over powered on a helbrute or a predator that can move and shoot heavies for no point increase. Everytime I see one say that, I think to myself "But the Iron hands ones can have 6+ FNP, move and shoot heavy no penalty, reroll 1s, -1ap, hit on over watch 5+ and double health brackets which all greatly benefit their dreads and preds at no extra cost though?". There is no way GW can leave the traits as they are now, mostly terrible and only apply to infantry, bikes and brutes with no other army passives like doctrines and second traits and think it's fair.

#15
MasterDeath

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Maybe instead of Infiltration (so this 9" extra move first turn) Alpha Legion could get something likie Outflank. Basically a free but limited version of infiltration.

 

For the marks I could imagine, that a mono-god Detachement grants auras to characters similar how the Daemons have it. Bonus points if these Bonus applies to <Mark of Chaos> units, so Daemons and Mortals alike.

 

A Mono-Army bonus would kinda conflict with how Chaos is often described as these different Warbands + Daemons + Mutants and even weirder stuff all mixed up. I could think of a Mono-Army Bonus as well as a Soup Bonus with the sole purpose of smoothing the interactions between the different factions. I would like a free summon at the start of first turn with my characters. (of course limited by reinforcement points). Summoning in general is ok for me, as I often use Bilepipers that dont have to move after turn 1.

 

Army Traits need a workover, especially they needs to apply army wide. Full agree here.

 

Quick edit: I play DG but start a Word Bearer army now. Do they even have an army trait? My Characters dont need reroll morale :D


Edited by MasterDeath, 06 December 2019 - 11:45 AM.


#16
Mallios

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For infiltration, misdirection, and lies, what about something affecting initiative rolls, or some form of deepstrike closer to the target?

#17
Sersi

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For Emperor's Children I'd take the legion trait "Fuelled by Sensation" from Traitor Legions, and add it along with Flawless Perfection.  It plays into the Sensation seeker and martial aspects of the Legion. 

 

Fuelled by Sensation:

 

When a <EC Legion models> suffers a wound they gain + 1 attack [to a maximum of 3] for the remainder of the battle.

 

- It won't effect most models since they only have one wound, and even two wound models on gain +1 attack.

- But units like Obliterators, Mutilators, Helbrutes, and Characters get a nice boost.

 

When a <EC Legion>  model is slain in the fight phase it can immediately make a single attack.

 

- So, if a model dies before attacking its still makes 1 attack.

- If the dies after making its attacks it still makes 1 more attack. 


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