Transhuman vs +1 to wound

[Jorre]

Hi just a rules query for you guys.

 

Say we charge a spacemarine unit and are wounding on a 3+ with our +1 to wound on the charge. our opponent pops transhuman physiology only wound on 4+

 

Do we wound on a 3+ or a 4+

 

My theory is its still a 3+ as we are adding 1 to our wound roll which is a 4+

[Gederas]

"An unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities the weapon or the model making the attack may have"

 

Note: It specifically states unmodified wound roll.... which means the die roll. Which to me, means you're still only wounding on 4, 5 and 6.

[Morticon]

The wording for transhuman states that "natural rolls of 1-3 always fail.  So, remove those outright. 

You're left with 4's, 5's and 6's - for which you add +1 to wound.  

In your example, if you needed a 3+, and you rolled a 4+ .  Since that's a *modfied* roll, you'd be good. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Morticon

[Jorre]

Bugger thx boyz

[Morticon]

May want to check that again, Jorre :P 

[Xenith]

I think you ignore the modifier for transhuman though, Mort.

 

If you roll a 3, modified it's a 4, however unmodified it's a 3 so fails.

 

I think claiming you only remove "unmodified" dice rolls is a bit iffy, if that's what you're getting at? Might be mistaken.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xenith

[Arkhanist]

here I'm using 'natural' to mean the actual face of the dice roll, before modifiers.

 

Simplest example, S4 vs T4 to start with, so needing 4+ to wound. With red thirst, you add +1 to the rolls; so 3 becomes 4, 4=>5, 5=>6, 6=>7. The edge case, a roll of 3, becomes a 4 so is a successful wound with red thirst - i.e. an effective 3+ needed to wound. Basic stuff so far!

 

They pop transhuman physiology, so now natural rolls of 1, 2 & 3 always fail. So in the edge case of rolling a 3, while it would have succeeded with red thirst, it's now an automatic fail regardless of modifiers. The +1 to wound still applies - so your rolls of 5 count as 6, etc if that matters for some other rule, but you're effectively wounding on a 4+ so red thirst is effctively negatated in this case.

 

Where you need a 5+ to wound pre-red thirst, e.g. S4 vs T5 (intercessors hitting aggressors) red thirst is still useful - transhuman would remove rolls of 1,2 & 3, but a natural roll of 4 is allowed, but would normally fail; but with the +1 to wound with red thirst now becomes a 5 and succeeds. So in reality they probably wouldn't bother using the TP strat, as you'd fail on a 3 anyway. Unless you're rocking a thunderhammer; normally, that'd be S8 vs T5, so wounding on a 3+ improved to 2+ with red thirst - but transhuman would cause natural rolls of 2 & 3 to now fail, so you're back to only natural rolls of 4+ wounding at best.

 

You can of cause re-roll natural wound rolls of 1 with a lieutenant regardless.

 

TL;DR - red thirst still applies, but cannot wound on natural rolls lower than a 4 when used on a target that used transhuman physiology, exactly the same way a power fist or thunderhammer cannot succeed on lower than 4. Kinda the point of the strat...

Edited December 3, 2019 by Arkhanist

[Morticon]

I think you ignore the modifier for transhuman though, Mort.

 

If you roll a 3, modified it's a 4, however unmodified it's a 3 so fails.

 

I think claiming you only remove "unmodified" dice rolls is a bit iffy, if that's what you're getting at? Might be mistaken.

 

I had a COMPLETE brainfart - apologies- I'm sick in bed with flu and brain si super foggy.

 

In my head a 4 rolled was as good as a 3 because of the plus one - but thats entirealy moot because you're wounding on 4s anyway..

 

As far as when I said you remove the dice, I was saying in terms of them literally not counting.  (The brainfart momment on my part was that, as mentioned, a 4 wounds anyway ><; )

 

But, yeah, to reiterate, no ...a natural roll of 1 a 2 or a 3 definitely dont count- even with BA ability. 

[Indefragable]

Are there any other Strategems/abilities out there that flat out negate a (sub)Faction’s inherent bonus?

 

From a certain negative light, Transhuman Physiology could be renamed “Middle Finger to Baal” in that sense. Yes, it’s not quite a complete shutdown for us, but the S4 bs T4 scenario is going to be the  most applicable and the most seen in a MEQ meta. 
 

Combos I can think of:

 

-Imperial Fists and/or Iron Warriors vs Raven Guard/Alpha Legion (part of theirs, anyways).

 

-Anything that messes with Overwatch vs Tau (and it seems every (sub)Faction now has some way of doing that.

Not trying to be a whiner, but I can already see the tactics articles talking about how to defeat BA, with emphasis on when to pop Transhuman and then when to pop the 2CP interrupt Strategem. 

[Panzer]

edit: nevermind

Edited December 3, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Jolemai]

I imagine a Vindicare would still wound on a 2+?

 

Same way that a Dark Reaper always hits on a 3, Vindicare always hits on a 2, and so on.

[Morticon]

I imagine a Vindicare would still wound on a 2+?

 

Same way that a Dark Reaper always hits on a 3, Vindicare always hits on a 2, and so on.

 

I believe not.  I think the stratagem over-rules this. 

[Blindhamster]

I imagine a Vindicare would still wound on a 2+?

 

Same way that a Dark Reaper always hits on a 3, Vindicare always hits on a 2, and so on.

No because a roll of a 2 or 3 always fail.

[Xenith]

 

  brainfart

 

No worries man, it happens. Just checking as you're way more knowledgeable about the rules and thought/hoped I maybe missed something!

[Neuralshock]

 

 

I imagine a Vindicare would still wound on a 2+?

 

Same way that a Dark Reaper always hits on a 3, Vindicare always hits on a 2, and so on.

I believe not. I think the stratagem over-rules this.

GW's trend has been that strats>unit/relic rules. For example the ruling on vexator mask and counter attack states that the relic does not prevent a player from spending two cp to counter attack.

[Closet Skeleton]

Are there any other Strategems/abilities out there that flat out negate a (sub)Faction’s inherent bonus?

 

From a certain negative light, Transhuman Physiology could be renamed “Middle Finger to Baal” in that sense. Yes, it’s not quite a complete shutdown for us, but the S4 bs T4 scenario is going to be the  most applicable and the most seen in a MEQ meta.

 

Gravis and Centurions are looking to be the big things for marines so I'm not so sure S4 vs T4 matters for anything. Transhuman physiology is really powerful when its turning 10 S8 high AP 2-3 damage hits that would be scoring 8 wounds into only scoring 5, its not actually that great a use of 2cp to block a mass of AP0 3+ to wound attacks.

 

Salamanders can probably stack a character up to T8 and red thirst would still let you wound him on 5s regardless of TP. The really nasty use of red thirst is making S8 effectively S14 against T7, (and S9/10 vs T8) not making wounding on 4+ easier. There's no TP for vehicles so BA thunderhammers will still be tearing them apart.

 

TP is also a BA stratagem after Blood of Baal so there's really nothing to complain about. TS's main use is countering high volume of fire S8 and that's as useful to BA as to any other T4 marine faction.

 

The Stalwart Chapter tactic is a much bigger negation of S5+ Red Thirst, but that's no less fair than the opposite which would be red thirst negating what's considered a sub par successor trait.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Xenith]

Are there any other Strategems/abilities out there that flat out negate a (sub)Faction’s inherent bonus?

 

From a certain negative light, Transhuman Physiology could be renamed “Middle Finger to Baal” in that sense. Yes, it’s not quite a complete shutdown for us, but the S4 bs T4 scenario is going to be the  most applicable and the most seen in a MEQ meta. 

 

Incursors and Infiltrators ignoring cover and to hit modifers vs jormungander, raven guard, alpha legion and Alaitoc, are just a couple of examples. 

 

Lots of stuff has hard counters, and I'm really quite glad that marines get some trump cards against being blown off the map. It's been an adage since 3rd ed that you need to build your army to kill MEQ, and it still stands today. I'll take not being able to wound marines on a 3+ all the time to being able to wound toughness 3 on a 2+ all the time. 

[Indefragable]

My meta is going to be brutal with the application of Transhuman Physiology. People tend to come up with combos unheard of (in a great way for the game, bad way for you, the opponent) so I am concerned with how they will be using this to effect.

 

And look, I know I'm coming off as a bit whiny with some of this stuff, but it's written so tone is lost. A lot of my gripes are as much to point out counters we need to be prepared for as it is to complain about something. And those who know me also know that I rarely advocate just for "my dudes..." ...if I'm griping about a game mechanic or rule interaction it's usually looking at the game as a whole (hence why I was asking what other Chapter Tactics/Faction traits have hard counters out there).

[Panzer]

Just bait it out early so the enemy runs out of CP. A unit of Hellblasters split-firering two units and similar shenanigans should do the trick to mitigate the effect so once our melee units arrive there hopefully aren't CP left for it. :D

Also weight of attack over quality of attacks is something we can do nicely. If we can only wound on 4+ anyway, just invest in chainsword instead of axes or fists. :D

[Wassa]

I’ve noticed the stratagem really screws with armies like Guard who will be spamming marines with S8+ weapons. Going from 2+ to 4+ really hurts.

[Panzer]

Especially AM have enough mass of fire to not rely on plasma and such to kill Marine infantry though imo. FRSR still hurts a lot, not to mention Leman Russ Punishers, Wyverns etc.