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Best Chapter for Playing up the Space Knight Theme


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#1
dusara217

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I am currently in the process of creating a little homebrew Chapter based off of the Order of Saint John (aka the Knights of Malta). I have most of what I want them to be fluff-wise pretty nailed down, but was hoping to get some direction as to how to best represent them on the tabletop. Specifically, which Chapter's rules would suit the sort of warrior monk / knight aesthetic? I currently have a Blood Angel Army that I've been slowly putting together, but I feel like the Blood Angels may not be the best for representing this sort of Chapter. 



#2
Medjugorje

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for sure its the Black Templars. The Dark Angels could be an Option too.


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#3
Custom Hero

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I have a homebrew called the Knights of Lydda. Its plays off the Saint George esthetic. I use what ever rules I want as I’m not nailed down to one play style or faction.

To be fair, I will only be using the Space Marine codex, but each of my captains are geared for a specific playstyle. The knightly theme runs through the army in color (silver as knights’ armor) and conversions. The look and feel of your army does more for your theme than anything else.

As far as Blood Angel rules go, the Black Rage (Death Company) could be explained as your overly zealous members. Maybe they have visions of the Emperor or aspire to Sainthood themselves. You could even make them the third class of the Order in that they live by the tenants but do not profess their works or prowess.

Chalices easily go down the communion route for your Sanguinary Priests. Those same Priests can even be used to really forge that hospitaller vision.

Long story short, look at the organization your modeling your force after. Make a list if what you want to stand out. From there, it’s pretty much cake! If you’d like some help let me know. I’ll always be a post away.
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#4
EnsignJoker

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Black Templars and Dark Angels are obvious. Grey Knights are very different to space marines but fit the aesthetic.

A lesser known option would be Iron Knights, an Imperial Fist successor. They all wear their icon on tilt shields rather than shoulder pads and as a successor you can do whatever you want with them.

#5
MegaVolt87

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Any IF DIY successor would work. Also Consecrators a DA sucessor would work.
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#6
Panzer

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Black Templar and Dark Angels if you go with official fluff for sure, however if you go with a homebrew chapter you could go with basically any geneline to be honest. It doesn't even matter whether they have a particularly big focus on melee or not since even with Dark Angels only their unique Terminators are a melee unit.

 

In my case my Blood Angels successor chapter is a Knightly order too (started out as Knights of Blood but evolved into their own thing).


Edited by sfPanzer, 04 December 2019 - 09:12 AM.

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#7
Riddlesworth

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The background fits for successor chapters of knightly order types are black templars, dark angels and maybe imperial fists.

 

However my advice would be to define your chapter's story, select the units and playstyle you think a knightly order chapter will fit to, then fit the most appropriate successor chapter based on how the stratagems, super doctrine, wl trait etc. support that playstyle. You're a successor chapter, not a copy.


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#8
dusara217

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Good stuff so far, I'll start going through the Black Templar rules and see if I can use their rules, and I'm currently in the process of looking through the Dark Angels to see if i can use their stuff, though the DA seem a little shootier than I'd really like for my Chapter to be.

 

My vision for these guys is that they'll be used a lot like Knights were in actual medieval combat - as shock cavalry. Obviously I can't put them on literal horses (although I guess TWC is a thing), but I was thinking of either running lots of CC-oriented bikes or jump pack models. At least model-wise, I'll probably be picking up a lot of Dark Angel and Black Templar bits just for the knightly look, if nothing else. This actually gives me the idea of maybe running Space Wolf rules; Blood Claws on jump packs to represent neophytes charging into battle and kitbashed monster / steampunk cavalry to counts-as for TWC. 

 

Another possibility is that I just stick with the Blood Angel rules and flesh out some fluff to reflect the cc-oriented playstyle, which wouldn't be too hard. And the Sanguinary Priests could definitely help me play up the Knights Hospitaller angle, as well. That's actually one of my favorite things about the Order of Saint John, the Order's history is so long that I can sort of play up any Knight-oriented theme and make it work.



#9
Panzer

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Good stuff so far, I'll start going through the Black Templar rules and see if I can use their rules, and I'm currently in the process of looking through the Dark Angels to see if i can use their stuff, though the DA seem a little shootier than I'd really like for my Chapter to be.

 

My vision for these guys is that they'll be used a lot like Knights were in actual medieval combat - as shock cavalry. Obviously I can't put them on literal horses (although I guess TWC is a thing), but I was thinking of either running lots of CC-oriented bikes or jump pack models. At least model-wise, I'll probably be picking up a lot of Dark Angel and Black Templar bits just for the knightly look, if nothing else. This actually gives me the idea of maybe running Space Wolf rules; Blood Claws on jump packs to represent neophytes charging into battle and kitbashed monster / steampunk cavalry to counts-as for TWC. 

 

Another possibility is that I just stick with the Blood Angel rules and flesh out some fluff to reflect the cc-oriented playstyle, which wouldn't be too hard. And the Sanguinary Priests could definitely help me play up the Knights Hospitaller angle, as well. That's actually one of my favorite things about the Order of Saint John, the Order's history is so long that I can sort of play up any Knight-oriented theme and make it work.

 

Well that's quite funny since you are describing the BA playstyle but said in your post that you don't think the BA playstyle fits the theme you want to go for. :D

 

Also unfortunately melee bikes aren't really a thing. Characters on bikes got banned to Legends and regular bikes only have shooty options except for the Sergeant.


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#10
dusara217

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Good stuff so far, I'll start going through the Black Templar rules and see if I can use their rules, and I'm currently in the process of looking through the Dark Angels to see if i can use their stuff, though the DA seem a little shootier than I'd really like for my Chapter to be.

 

My vision for these guys is that they'll be used a lot like Knights were in actual medieval combat - as shock cavalry. Obviously I can't put them on literal horses (although I guess TWC is a thing), but I was thinking of either running lots of CC-oriented bikes or jump pack models. At least model-wise, I'll probably be picking up a lot of Dark Angel and Black Templar bits just for the knightly look, if nothing else. This actually gives me the idea of maybe running Space Wolf rules; Blood Claws on jump packs to represent neophytes charging into battle and kitbashed monster / steampunk cavalry to counts-as for TWC. 

 

Another possibility is that I just stick with the Blood Angel rules and flesh out some fluff to reflect the cc-oriented playstyle, which wouldn't be too hard. And the Sanguinary Priests could definitely help me play up the Knights Hospitaller angle, as well. That's actually one of my favorite things about the Order of Saint John, the Order's history is so long that I can sort of play up any Knight-oriented theme and make it work.

 

Well that's quite funny since you are describing the BA playstyle but said in your post that you don't think the BA playstyle fits the theme you want to go for. biggrin.png

 

Also unfortunately melee bikes aren't really a thing. Characters on bikes got banned to Legends and regular bikes only have shooty options except for the Sergeant.

 

Yeah, it seems like the Blood Angels jump pack characters might be best for representing this, I suppose that I was just hoping that I could find some form of proper melee cavalry to go with the theme. 

 

edit: Also, I've started seeing reference to Legends recently, would you happen to have a link to wherever GW introduced that? I feel like I've never heard of it before. 


Edited by dusara217, 04 December 2019 - 10:25 PM.


#11
Panzer

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edit: Also, I've started seeing reference to Legends recently, would you happen to have a link to wherever GW introduced that? I feel like I've never heard of it before. 

 

 

Today's WarCom article would be what you are looking for. ;) https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-1/


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#12
Riddlesworth

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Also unfortunately melee bikes aren't really a thing. Characters on bikes got banned to Legends and regular bikes only have shooty options except for the Sergeant.


Melee bikes screams black knights to me

#13
Medjugorje

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There are another chapters like the Hospitalers, White Templars, Red Templars, Howly Griffins..


Edited by Medjugorje, 04 December 2019 - 11:03 PM.


#14
The Unseen

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Space wolves can do cavalry
If you wanted mounted knights, wouldn't be hard to use horse or similar mounts and use Thunder wolf cavalry rules.
And they have a lot of "company of heroes" feel to them.
Sagas become knightly vows, fenrisian wolves become hunting dogs, etc.

But with a home brew chapter, you can pretty much use whatever you like.
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#15
quasistellar

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Let’s not forget ravenwing!



#16
Beta galactosidase

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When it comes to rules, heavy cavalry isn’t that fast. It’s due to being heavy. In WHFB and WH historicals they’re only a bit faster than infantry.

When they charge they go really fast and they hit really hard, sure. I think any space marine unit that isn’t in Phobos armor is a good choice for heavy cavalry. Aggressors are heavy cavalry I mean they’re short-ranged and very heavy. There’s a reason one of the knightliest chapter, Dark Angels, is the Terminator squad / Tactical Dreadnought chapter.

Oh and the “bike” chapter, White Scars, is based on a stereotyped light cavalry military, although in real life mongols and Turkic armies had heavy cavalry too. Yeah, Knights mean TDA, Aggressors, Centurions.

Edited by Beta galactosidase, 09 December 2019 - 02:48 AM.


#17
Panzer

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When it comes to rules, heavy cavalry isn’t that fast. It’s due to being heavy. In WHFB and WH historicals they’re only a bit faster than infantry.

When they charge they go really fast and they hit really hard, sure. I think any space marine unit that isn’t in Phobos armor is a good choice for heavy cavalry. Aggressors are heavy cavalry I mean they’re short-ranged and very heavy. There’s a reason one of the knightliest chapter, Dark Angels, is the Terminator squad / Tactical Dreadnought chapter.
 

Oh and the “bike” chapter, White Scars, is based on a stereotyped light cavalry military, although in real life mongols and Turkic armies had heavy cavalry too. Yeah, Knights mean TDA, Aggressors, Centurions.

In WHFB they used to be twice as fast as infantry with the difference to light cavalry that the light cavalry could change their formation for free while moving.

 

Also it seems you are mixing heavy cavalry and knights. The Dark Angels Deathwing are knights but not heavy cavalry. Calvary is always mounted so having any Marine unit as cavalry would be just wrong regardless of light or heavy.


Edited by sfPanzer, 09 December 2019 - 04:38 PM.

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#18
Brother Tyler

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... which Chapter's rules would suit the sort of warrior monk / knight aesthetic?

Apples and oranges.

Rules and aesthetics are two different things; and they aren't necessarily intertwined. Both should derive from and complement the intended theme, but it's entirely possible to take a set of rules and apply a variety of themes.
 
For example, though the Black Templars and Dark Angels (and their Successors) are rightly identified as having a "warrior monk / knight" aesthetic, the truth is that the core concept of the Adeptus Astartes - all Adeptus Astartes - incorporates that theme. How much that concept is represented visually varies from Chapter to Chapter, beyond the suits of [power] armour and melee weapons. For some Chapters, additional elements are added in order to emphasize the warrior monk/knight concept, and the most obvious of these are the Black Templars (tabards), Unforgiven Chapters (robes), and the Grey Knights. For other Chapters, the visual cues may reduce the warrior monk/knight aesthetic in order to emphasize some other them. A strong example of this is the Space Wolves, whose visual cues shift more towards the Norsemen/Celts. Regardless, the concept of warrior monks/knights remains as a core element of all Chapters.

The "warrior monk/knight" theme doesn't restrict a Chapter to a limited set of rules. European monastic orders weren't homogenous, so any set/combination of rules might be applied with a bit of creativity. This may be easier if you expand the scope to allow for warrior monks/knights from non-European Middle Ages cultures (e.g., Janissaries, Sohei, et al). Imagine applying the Space Wolves rules to a Chapter with a warrior monk/knight aesthetic; or the White Scars; or some combination of Chapter Traits from Codex: Space Marines.

Don't feel pigeonholed into using a specific set of rules simply because it is applied to some other Chapter that has a "warrior monk/knight" aesthetic, and don't feel restricted from using the rules for some Chapter that doesn't have that aesthetic. Find the set of rules you like and use it for your Chapter that has a warrior monk/knight aesthetic. With a little creativity, you can make anything work.
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#19
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Good stuff so far, I'll start going through the Black Templar rules and see if I can use their rules, and I'm currently in the process of looking through the Dark Angels to see if i can use their stuff, though the DA seem a little shootier than I'd really like for my Chapter to be.

 

My vision for these guys is that they'll be used a lot like Knights were in actual medieval combat - as shock cavalry. Obviously I can't put them on literal horses (although I guess TWC is a thing), but I was thinking of either running lots of CC-oriented bikes or jump pack models. At least model-wise, I'll probably be picking up a lot of Dark Angel and Black Templar bits just for the knightly look, if nothing else. This actually gives me the idea of maybe running Space Wolf rules; Blood Claws on jump packs to represent neophytes charging into battle and kitbashed monster / steampunk cavalry to counts-as for TWC. 

 

Another possibility is that I just stick with the Blood Angel rules and flesh out some fluff to reflect the cc-oriented playstyle, which wouldn't be too hard. And the Sanguinary Priests could definitely help me play up the Knights Hospitaller angle, as well. That's actually one of my favorite things about the Order of Saint John, the Order's history is so long that I can sort of play up any Knight-oriented theme and make it work.

 

Well that's quite funny since you are describing the BA playstyle but said in your post that you don't think the BA playstyle fits the theme you want to go for. biggrin.png

 

Also unfortunately melee bikes aren't really a thing. Characters on bikes got banned to Legends and regular bikes only have shooty options except for the Sergeant.

 

 

Legends doesn't ban anything. All units in Legends are available for Matched Play. 


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#20
Gederas

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Good stuff so far, I'll start going through the Black Templar rules and see if I can use their rules, and I'm currently in the process of looking through the Dark Angels to see if i can use their stuff, though the DA seem a little shootier than I'd really like for my Chapter to be.

 

My vision for these guys is that they'll be used a lot like Knights were in actual medieval combat - as shock cavalry. Obviously I can't put them on literal horses (although I guess TWC is a thing), but I was thinking of either running lots of CC-oriented bikes or jump pack models. At least model-wise, I'll probably be picking up a lot of Dark Angel and Black Templar bits just for the knightly look, if nothing else. This actually gives me the idea of maybe running Space Wolf rules; Blood Claws on jump packs to represent neophytes charging into battle and kitbashed monster / steampunk cavalry to counts-as for TWC. 

 

Another possibility is that I just stick with the Blood Angel rules and flesh out some fluff to reflect the cc-oriented playstyle, which wouldn't be too hard. And the Sanguinary Priests could definitely help me play up the Knights Hospitaller angle, as well. That's actually one of my favorite things about the Order of Saint John, the Order's history is so long that I can sort of play up any Knight-oriented theme and make it work.

Well that's quite funny since you are describing the BA playstyle but said in your post that you don't think the BA playstyle fits the theme you want to go for. biggrin.png

 

Also unfortunately melee bikes aren't really a thing. Characters on bikes got banned to Legends and regular bikes only have shooty options except for the Sergeant.

Legends doesn't ban anything. All units in Legends are available for Matched Play.

Ah, but you forget Ace.... If something is a recommendation for Tournaments, it seems people will take that as sacrosanct rules. For example: Rule of 3, a recommendation for Tournaments?

 

Any matched play game I've seen since it was created abides by it, and acts like it's a rule like the >10 Wound Character Targeting rule.

 

Legends not recommended for tournaments? You'll never see those Legends units again in Matched play games because of the same reason.
 



#21
Panzer

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That's not how I meant it, but sure put words into my mouth. ^^

Edited by sfPanzer, 21 December 2019 - 06:33 AM.

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#22
Gederas

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That's not how I meant it, but sure put words into my mouth. ^^

Wasn't referring to you mate, sorry laugh.png. You bringing it up simply reminded me of what the issue is, and I was instead referring to how Legends has already been treated at my local GW... And it seems to be being treated the same by a lot of people already O.o


Edited by Gederas, 21 December 2019 - 02:21 PM.

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