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40K: Legends


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#126
tvih

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I started collecting with the original metal Legion of the Damned at the time they were featured in WD.  It'd be nice to see a revamp of them once again and would likely be one of the very few reasons for me to want to invest in Primaris if they went that way (short of a half price sale on Redemptors, Invictors and Eliminators!).  But then, what to do with all those new metal ones I own still in blisters?!

 

I also have some metal LotD. I got them second-hand, but I assume they've never been painted considering plastic metal parts are still in sprues if I recall correctly. Not sure what to do with them.



#127
Dark Shepherd

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Entire line of Primaris character and unit jetbikers coming out :)

How old are most of the bike models btw?

#128
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I remember the good ol kitbash and customise your models days. Kinda lame. They being back custom chapter tactics from the dead (which is just a rule) but kill off our purposefully customised models (that required us to purchase multiple models from them!!!)
Just doesn't make much sense to me really.

#129
Claws and Effect

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I remember the good ol kitbash and customise your models days. Kinda lame. They being back custom chapter tactics from the dead (which is just a rule) but kill off our purposefully customised models (that required us to purchase multiple models from them!!!)
Just doesn't make much sense to me really.


Makes perfect sense from their perspective.

Most longtime players can probably cobble together most of that stuff without going farther than their bits box. I know I have enough Ravenwing bikes laying around for 2 of each HQ that went to Legends.

I imagine there are a lot of people that were running bike HQs because they are both more mobile and durable than their infantry counterparts. Those people had no reason to buy Primaris HQ models because the bike version was superior. Now they have to if they want to use those units in competitive play.

It's a cynical outlook, but effectively killing off biker HQ by making them a "with your opponents permission" option will probably drive sales of the units they want people to buy more of.
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#130
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It's only with permission if your opponent is practicing for a tournament that's not allowing it. Some rando at the flgs/gw doesn't have any ground to stand on for a pickup game.

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 05 December 2019 - 09:10 PM.

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#131
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It's only with permission if your opponent is practicing for a tournament that's not allowing it. Some rando at the flgs/gw doesn't have any ground to stand on for a pickup game.

 

Even then, if you are playing matched play in a pickup game, they could ask you not to use those units, but they can't do anything about you running them excpet choose another opponent. 


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#132
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I'm more concerned that these units will no longer be receiving support from GW going forward. As in, come the next edition there will be no more Mega Armoured War Boss, no more Big Mek, etc. That's what concerns me the most with the Legends thing and I think some people can't see the forest through the trees with this.

There's plenty of garbage Tyranid units that need a complete re-write that are reasonably new and still on sale that haven't gotten any attention even in chapter approved's points drops.

 

If they bring out a new mega-armoured warboss model it will get rules and maybe good ones. Legion of the Damned seem pretty likely to turn up with new rules in a campaign book since they still keep getting mentioned in the fluff. Thousand Sons still have a disc option because its a kit, the Khorne Lord on Juggernaut was such a core part of the original chaos marine range that I don't see them not remaking it in a world eaters release (though they could always make juggernaut cavalry as a unit but not a hero option).

 

I doubt what goes in legends will really matter for long term support.

 

 

This is definitely the right attitude to take when people have spent hundreds of their chosen currency and dealt with the challenges of large resin models to produce something spectacular, which they had a reasonable expectation to be able to use in 40k given that the rules for it have existed for 40k for years.

You say that FW focuses on narrative rather than the competitive - taking that line of reasoning, in what narrative does the Twin Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, a pair of guns longer than a Land Raider and larger than anything the Guard can field, have the firepower equal to a Leman Russ Tank Commander?

There’s no good reason for the treatment of FW superheavies rules, at all. They’re just stuck as Index-level options in a Codex age.

 

 

I don't care how much money people spend on something, the game should be accessible regardless. Which is obviously not going to happen but whatever. I've taken garbage over-priced forgeworld units that took me a year to make passable on the table top to a tournament (but it was warhammer fantasy and my model doesn't even have Age of Sigmar rules despite being on sale). Still doesn't mean I want to see models designed to show how 30k was different to 40k on 40k battlefields. I'd be much happier if tournaments banned forgeworld and kept legends legal instead.

 

All the Forgeworld models are index-level. If you have the patience to build a resin kit you have the patience to house rule its guns to be worth firing. I'd like my claw and stormcannon leviathan to not have garbage rules that make only the two gun ones worth using but I also don't want leviathans or other 30k stuff invalidating the rest of the dreadnought options in the codex. There's just so many things that need their rules fixing that aren't over-priced models that aren't accessible to a lot of hobbyists.

 

I've played against a Forgeworld space marine super-heavy (probably a Falchion) exactly once in a narrative event that had flexible rules. So I told my opponent to add a few hundred extra points to his list to stop the game being too one-sided.


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#133
Claws and Effect

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I concur on the FW superheavies. Why is a twin Volcano Cannon a 900 point upgrade over a single one?
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#134
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Legends is still odd. With the no model, no rules logic, units like a jump pack sorc or chosen should be legends because there is no actual kit for them specifically. Yet they can stick around without actual kits while SW wolfguard bikes and characters go to legends? The comparison has a common thread- you need multiple kits to do them properly because they don't have specific models. Hopefully actual models are done for legends, then they can come back proper. 


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#135
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I was trying to find it, but I thought that on one of the VoxCasts or in an interview with one of the model designers, there was an agreement amongst some of those folks that Marines on bikes was a goofy idea and they were moving away from it. I haven’t been able to find that and so maybe it was a weird fever dream or something different was actually said and for some reason my brain was translating otherwise, but I thought that this was why they seem to be moving so many things away from bikes for the Marine line.
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#136
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I was trying to find it, but I thought that on one of the VoxCasts or in an interview with one of the model designers, there was an agreement amongst some of those folks that Marines on bikes was a goofy idea and they were moving away from it. I haven’t been able to find that and so maybe it was a weird fever dream or something different was actually said.


Meanwhile riding giant wolves is super believable...

It's weird to me when the say stuff like this. The whole thing is goofy lol.
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#137
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I was trying to find it, but I thought that on one of the VoxCasts or in an interview with one of the model designers, there was an agreement amongst some of those folks that Marines on bikes was a goofy idea and they were moving away from it. I haven’t been able to find that and so maybe it was a weird fever dream or something different was actually said and for some reason my brain was translating otherwise, but I thought that this was why they seem to be moving so many things away from bikes for the Marine line.


Well, aside from the Marine Chapters that are focused on bike tactics - let alone 30K and all the bikes there.

I used to, back in 3rd/4th, feel that way myself. Then I realized that bikes are exactly what Marines would use once they got stuck in on a planet and needed to conduct recons-in-force, small quick raids, rapid reaction force, or just redeploy quickly in terrain and circumstances where tanks would be at a disadvantage.

I think it’s more just a matter of timing with them being ready to start rolling out Primaris before a bike resculpt was ready to slot into the schedule far enough ahead of them (ditto a desperately needed Scouts resculpt.)

#138
mithrilforge

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Sometimes it's about... oh wait, who am i kidding rolleyesclean.gif all the time... It's all about money ,This game isn't so much about the fluff and models anymore .... In this day and age i expect things like this to happen ... essays could be written in length about this but it would be a waste of time...

GW are like the underpant Gnomes

 

Stage 1. Old models = phase out (and perhaps steal underpants too)

Stage 2. ....Insert new models and force them to be used 

Stage 3.  Profit happy.png 

 

Mithril  


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#139
Lord Nord

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I was trying to find it, but I thought that on one of the VoxCasts or in an interview with one of the model designers, there was an agreement amongst some of those folks that Marines on bikes was a goofy idea and they were moving away from it. I haven’t been able to find that and so maybe it was a weird fever dream or something different was actually said and for some reason my brain was translating otherwise, but I thought that this was why they seem to be moving so many things away from bikes for the Marine line.

 

I have to wonder if that's just GW attempting to rationalize a decision they already made to not give Primaris bikes because the jet/hover bike option would compete with Custodes, while the wheeled bikes would seem like a step back in an army where all the other new vehicles have anti-grav.


Edited by Lord Nord, 05 December 2019 - 11:14 PM.


#140
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+ I am now zealously hoping that kicking the current Legion of the Damned datasheet to the curb was done to make way for an upcoming refresh of the models and rules as part of the Psychic Awakening, with the flamey bois returning in glory, ethereal Ferrus Manus leading them! +

+ YES, PLEASE +

 

It would be HILARIOUS if, after all the speculation and wishlisting, that the ONE primarch that everyone wrote off as TRULY dead and never coming back, is the next loyalist primarch XD


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#141
Mr4Minutes

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Sometimes it's about... oh wait, who am i kidding rolleyesclean.gif all the time... It's all about money ,This game isn't so much about the fluff and models anymore .... In this day and age i expect things like this to happen ... essays could be written in length about this but it would be a waste of time...
GW are like the underpant Gnomes

Stage 1. Old models = phase out (and perhaps steal underpants too)
Stage 2. ....Insert new models and force them to be used
Stage 3. Profit happy.png

Mithril


I mean, they are a for profit company...

But I think we also should be considering the game theory and development side. When you’re writing high level game concepts for a game that needs to be played by two friends having a fun time and also two complete strangers trying to see who’s the best player it’s really hard to keep balance with over 30 years of models and rules. And with how much has been developed by GW in that timer frame, at some point you have to cut something.

Legends allows us to continue using every rule and model within most game frameworks. And at the same time allows GW to create new game concepts without having to consider every single released rule in the past 30 years.

A good example (my opinion) is the new SM dex vs the new CSM dex. SM and CSM uses virtually the exact same rule set. Most of their unit profiles and weapons are the same. The changes GW made to increase SM power level drastically left CSM in the dust because they’re both using the same (or close to) rule set. And competitive play has shown that the rule set was severely underpowered.

But, if/when GW put the basic marine line into legends, and go with only/mostly Primaris, the two lines will be on different rule set. I believe it will then be easier for GW to buff or adjust game mechanics and point levels when the two armies are truly two different armies. My example would be terminators. With 50% of armies using this data sheet it’s been a challenge for GW to find a balanced use for them. If you remove them from SM and leave them only in CSM it’s much easier to adjust/buff the unit for that army.

No one wants to see hours and money spent lost to a changing game environment (me included) but we have been given an avenue to continue using our older armies/units.

I also understand that SM power level is above everyone, but this was my closest apples to apples comparison.
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#142
Redcomet

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Sometimes it's about... oh wait, who am i kidding rolleyesclean.gif all the time... It's all about money ,This game isn't so much about the fluff and models anymore .... In this day and age i expect things like this to happen ... essays could be written in length about this but it would be a waste of time...

GW are like the underpant Gnomes

 

Stage 1. Old models = phase out (and perhaps steal underpants too)

Stage 2. ....Insert new models and force them to be used 

Stage 3.  Profit happy.png

 

Mithril  

Hate to burst your bubble, but it has always been about the money. 


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#143
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#144
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What’ve wanted is LotD that have crossed the Rubicon and has jumping packs too . I mean seriously YES !!!
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#145
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Grey knight dreds can only take codex equipment (assault cannon, autocannon, swap dccw for autocannon etc) and the techmarine is like a basic vanilla techmarine.


How so? The rules say you can still play twin autocannon dreads for open, narrating AND matched play games. And they cost 13 points cheaper now. That's a good thing!
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#146
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Legion Super heavies are Horus heresy units that aren't supposed to be on 40k battlefields outside of specific scenarios. We have enough HH crap running around at the moment without needing more thanks.

Outside of their base context Fellblades are more like Basilisk platforms, scenario units that aren't supposed to be competing with codex units. Forge World's imperial armour books were intended to focus on narrative play over competitive play, expecting their stuff to be good in normal games was never advertised as the point of the brand. Age of Darkness is similarly a narrative focused game and that holds true even in the organized play scene.

This is definitely the right attitude to take when people have spent hundreds of their chosen currency and dealt with the challenges of large resin models to produce something spectacular, which they had a reasonable expectation to be able to use in 40k given that the rules for it have existed for 40k for years.

You say that FW focuses on narrative rather than the competitive - taking that line of reasoning, in what narrative does the Twin Fellblade Accelerator Cannon, a pair of guns longer than a Land Raider and larger than anything the Guard can field, have the firepower equal to a Leman Russ Tank Commander?

There’s no good reason for the treatment of FW superheavies rules, at all. They’re just stuck as Index-level options in a Codex age.

You can still use it for 40k. That's what Legends ensures in perpetuity. Stop being so dramatic.
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#147
OrkPlayer137

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As they still sell most of the Legion of the Damned range, I'm hoping that there will be expanded rules in White Dwarf at some point (like with Inquisition recently), so hopefully this Legends pdf is just to last until then.


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#148
Dark Shepherd

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I was trying to find it, but I thought that on one of the VoxCasts or in an interview with one of the model designers, there was an agreement amongst some of those folks that Marines on bikes was a goofy idea and they were moving away from it. I haven’t been able to find that and so maybe it was a weird fever dream or something different was actually said.

Meanwhile riding giant wolves is super believable...

It's weird to me when the say stuff like this. The whole thing is goofy lol.

The giant wolves are a status symbol :)
Personally I hate the bike models as they look like toys IMO

Possibly their logic is the bikes massively limit detail/poses

#149
chapter master 454

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It does just feel ham-handed. I mean...Marines on bikes being goofy is a silly thing, I don't think that was ever said. Likely a misquote imo.

 

By all accounts, marines on bikes is kinda scary. If a half ton car going 20mph can do some serious damage to someone, imagine what I can only imagine is well over 2 tons going well over 50mph would do (likely marines would start painting bikes red to avoid having to wash them!).

 

Really the main thing GW does need to do is maybe take a slow year for sorting the model range. I know, controversial wishlisting that will never happen but it would be one of the better ideas. Take a good look at the range, consolidate kits and update them to modern standards (like scouts for marines) along with giving back older options with a nice juicy character kit, heck even make that a theme for a month or two for both AoS and 40k where they release a bunch of HQ kits for factions which consolidates options into one box (that would build 3 characters that the faction can take. For example marines could have one that builds Captain/Lieutenant, Chaplain, Librarian and/or a Techmarine. Call it the "Leader of the Astartes" and then have a similar kit for company ancients, champions, apothecaries and company vets and call it "Veterans of the Astartes" (or heroes...not sure which).

It would never happen but it would be nice for GW to just spend a year sorting the model range out, going through options and actually giving us the models and pieces for them...instead of taking them away.


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#150
Bryan Blaire

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All, please don't take what I said beyond what I said - I'm not trying to start a rumor or put words into GW designers' mouths - I have been unable to locate what I thought was heard from one of them or read in an interview. It may have even been conflated from other information that I was reading while listening to an interview.

I don't personally agree with this and have high hopes that I rarely air that we will see heavy, brutal, blunt prowed jet-bikes using Repulsor style gravy plates that deploy from drop positions that open like the hover-board case Griff in Back to the Future 2 uses to deploy his board (and then Marines drop onto them and crash-take off with ground rending force) - but I get more concerned with each passing release that some form of bike mount doesn't appear. I would much, much rather have bikes (or combat quads) in any form for Marine mounts than Thunderwolves or more exotic creatures (except some kind of brutal drake creature like the new Chaos mount).

If, and that's a BIG, BIG! If, my brain is not failing me, and that is actually what said at some point, it might partially explain why bike options have been limited and no Primaris bikes have appeared so far.
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