2020 Wish list - story edition

[MegaVolt87]

Creed, Greyfax and Celestine should have definitely died to set up new characters + models for them in the new 40k age. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I think beyond the individual micro things what I want to have happen in the story is to stop trying to please all demographics.

What I mean by this is even when the Imperium lose, they somehow win. That sucks, that's not 40k, it's not grimdark.

When the Imperium lose they should lose hard and tragically to force the point home that they are in dire straits.

I mean remember the Rogue Trader art?

 

That's Crimson Fists losing and losing hard, fighting against insane odds.

Storm of Iron is a great goddam novel for showing the "grimdark" in 40k while similarly showing the humanity of the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors are unequivocally the bad guys here. and (actually I'll continue with the spoiler tags here:

 

So Hydra Cordatus, the Iron Warriors are the bad guys but we understand why. They're horrible and they're murdering the hell out of people. Hooray! The Imperial Fists show up to save the day! But. It's not enough, it appeared like they they may had a chance but they didn't. All the heroes die, and die in their own heroic and tragic ways save the lone survivor. THAT is 40k. It's heroic tragedy. 

Compare that to the Cadia destruction? Sure, the planet was destroyed, but other than Sergeant Kell no one was killed, and Kell was never a major character of note, he was the extra miniature you got with CREED! 

Nobody of note died, only redshirts, Creed, Eldrad, Belisarius, the Living Saint, Tayzyn, Greyfax all survived.

I mean Abbadon literally was standing over a de-powered Celestine, but, she survived?! Because he wanted a Saturday morning cartoon villain monologue?! No! That is tired and trite storytelling. Abbaddon is the one who kills the ones you love.

 

So, what I would like to happen in a story progression? Beyond my oddly specific stuff above? I want Abbadon to kill a special character, no if's ands or buts, 100% dead, soul devoured by Drach'nyen, head chopped off and stuck on a spike and their body left as a lifeless husk for those that loved them to mourn over and rage at the despoiler.

I want Abbadon the Despoiler to kill Roboute Guilliman in single combat.

I want it to be the modern retelling of the Emperor vs Horus, but Horus aka Abbadon unequivocally wins.

I want there to be art work of Abby raising the severed head of Guilliman in triumph as the big art work piece to herald the next section of the storyline.

I've just finished Storm of Iron last week and I had a really weird sudden realisation: Outside of the Horus Heresy, I don't think that I've read a book that Chaos/Xenos unequivocally win apart from Storm of Iron. Maybe I haven't been reading the right books but as a Chaos/Xenos fan it's pretty disheartening. There needs to be actual stakes for the Imperium, real characters need to die so that Chaos actually feels threatening. No monologing, no Deus Ex Machina, just an absolute beat down.

 

Remember when Haarken Worldclaimer came out? He was such a cool character that they just left as a comic book villian, he throws a spear in the ground and he has to take the planet otherwise Abaddon will be very angry and take the planet himself. Abaddon is no better in Vigilus, he beats the snot out of Calgar and then doesn't finish the job? All it would have taken was a quick thrust of his sword and Clagar is dead, he wins and he can teleport back to the ship.

 

Another thing I think BL should start doing is to introduce Chaos characters that either are not getting a model at all or characters that are getting models should have a book or two written about/be included in, so that we don't have another Haarken where he was brought up in Vigilus and that was it.

[ChazSexington]

I want a story where

• CSMs unambiguously win.
• The Alpha Legion and Words Bearers are shown as competent bad guys.
• The focus shifts from Primarchs to the little guy, akin to the Night Lords Omnibus.
• Someone dies from crossing the Rubicon Primaris.

[Slave to Darkness]

Guilliman turns out to be an Eldar sleeper cell, Inquisition starts poking about and he goes rogue. The Inquisition was founded to stop something like the Heresy happening again and yet some Joffrey Baratheon looking geezer turns up all like 'Yea I'm in charge now, my dead dad said so, I have his sword so it's true... FACTS!!! #IMTHEDADDYNOW #YOLO', and everybody's cool with that? 

[techsoldaten]

All I want is very minor updates to make existing factions more effective. Not really talking competitive, just simple stuff so I can enjoy my armies.

 

For Chaos - make all psychic powers area of effect. Being able to put Prescience on a couple units at a time solves a lot of problems.

 

For Grey Knights - make their charges rerollable and give them back some form of Parry. They have these great melee weapons, it would be nice if they ever got to use them.

 

Getting a new Fulgrim model would be nice, but not if it means everything I already have is bad.

[Guzzlrr]

 

I think beyond the individual micro things what I want to have happen in the story is to stop trying to please all demographics.

What I mean by this is even when the Imperium lose, they somehow win. That sucks, that's not 40k, it's not grimdark.

When the Imperium lose they should lose hard and tragically to force the point home that they are in dire straits.

I mean remember the Rogue Trader art?

 

That's Crimson Fists losing and losing hard, fighting against insane odds.

Storm of Iron is a great goddam novel for showing the "grimdark" in 40k while similarly showing the humanity of the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors are unequivocally the bad guys here. and (actually I'll continue with the spoiler tags here:

 

So Hydra Cordatus, the Iron Warriors are the bad guys but we understand why. They're horrible and they're murdering the hell out of people. Hooray! The Imperial Fists show up to save the day! But. It's not enough, it appeared like they they may had a chance but they didn't. All the heroes die, and die in their own heroic and tragic ways save the lone survivor. THAT is 40k. It's heroic tragedy. 

Compare that to the Cadia destruction? Sure, the planet was destroyed, but other than Sergeant Kell no one was killed, and Kell was never a major character of note, he was the extra miniature you got with CREED! 

Nobody of note died, only redshirts, Creed, Eldrad, Belisarius, the Living Saint, Tayzyn, Greyfax all survived.

I mean Abbadon literally was standing over a de-powered Celestine, but, she survived?! Because he wanted a Saturday morning cartoon villain monologue?! No! That is tired and trite storytelling. Abbaddon is the one who kills the ones you love.

 

So, what I would like to happen in a story progression? Beyond my oddly specific stuff above? I want Abbadon to kill a special character, no if's ands or buts, 100% dead, soul devoured by Drach'nyen, head chopped off and stuck on a spike and their body left as a lifeless husk for those that loved them to mourn over and rage at the despoiler.

I want Abbadon the Despoiler to kill Roboute Guilliman in single combat.

I want it to be the modern retelling of the Emperor vs Horus, but Horus aka Abbadon unequivocally wins.

I want there to be art work of Abby raising the severed head of Guilliman in triumph as the big art work piece to herald the next section of the storyline.

I've just finished Storm of Iron last week and I had a really weird sudden realisation: Outside of the Horus Heresy, I don't think that I've read a book that Chaos/Xenos unequivocally win apart from Storm of Iron. Maybe I haven't been reading the right books but as a Chaos/Xenos fan it's pretty disheartening. There needs to be actual stakes for the Imperium, real characters need to die so that Chaos actually feels threatening. No monologing, no Deus Ex Machina, just an absolute beat down.

 

Remember when Haarken Worldclaimer came out? He was such a cool character that they just left as a comic book villian, he throws a spear in the ground and he has to take the planet otherwise Abaddon will be very angry and take the planet himself. Abaddon is no better in Vigilus, he beats the snot out of Calgar and then doesn't finish the job? All it would have taken was a quick thrust of his sword and Clagar is dead, he wins and he can teleport back to the ship.

 

Another thing I think BL should start doing is to introduce Chaos characters that either are not getting a model at all or characters that are getting models should have a book or two written about/be included in, so that we don't have another Haarken where he was brought up in Vigilus and that was it.

 

 

one can hope thats why they're starting legends so they can kill characters and keep them usable ?

 

but i absolutely love this

[Deadass]

 

 

 

I want the Iron Warriors to unite as a Legion and have a "Herald of Iron" (not Honsou). Then have him kill the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists (Gregor) in a clear victory for the Iron Warriors. Have a third of the Imperial Fists fall in a trap.

Shon'tu's death was retconned (sigh) and I would bet money on him being the IW character if they end up giving one for each Legion

 

Wait, really? Where did that happen?

 

Yep - Imperial Fists supplement, he's listed as being alive and well with the 3rd company still pining for his head

 

 

Ew. I guess that's GW narrative writers failing at getting their stories straight... which doesn't really make it better.

 

Remember when Haarken Worldclaimer came out? He was such a cool character that they just left as a comic book villian, he throws a spear in the ground and he has to take the planet otherwise Abaddon will be very angry and take the planet himself. Abaddon is no better in Vigilus, he beats the snot out of Calgar and then doesn't finish the job? All it would have taken was a quick thrust of his sword and Clagar is dead, he wins and he can teleport back to the ship.

 

Another thing I think BL should start doing is to introduce Chaos characters that either are not getting a model at all or characters that are getting models should have a book or two written about/be included in, so that we don't have another Haarken where he was brought up in Vigilus and that was it.

 

 

On a slightly unrelated note, I'd enjoy a BL novella to flesh Haarken out a little. The bits from Vigilus and the 8.5 'dex are honestly not that telling; right now he's just some guy that likes to spook people and can't fight in melee with his spear.

Edited December 11, 2019 by AHorriblePerson

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

 

 

I want the Iron Warriors to unite as a Legion and have a "Herald of Iron" (not Honsou). Then have him kill the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists (Gregor) in a clear victory for the Iron Warriors. Have a third of the Imperial Fists fall in a trap.

Shon'tu's death was retconned (sigh) and I would bet money on him being the IW character if they end up giving one for each Legion

 

Wait, really? Where did that happen?

 

Yep - Imperial Fists supplement, he's listed as being alive and well with the 3rd company still pining for his head

 

 

Ew. I guess that's GW narrative writers failing at getting their stories straight... which doesn't really make it better.

 

Remember when Haarken Worldclaimer came out? He was such a cool character that they just left as a comic book villian, he throws a spear in the ground and he has to take the planet otherwise Abaddon will be very angry and take the planet himself. Abaddon is no better in Vigilus, he beats the snot out of Calgar and then doesn't finish the job? All it would have taken was a quick thrust of his sword and Clagar is dead, he wins and he can teleport back to the ship.

 

Another thing I think BL should start doing is to introduce Chaos characters that either are not getting a model at all or characters that are getting models should have a book or two written about/be included in, so that we don't have another Haarken where he was brought up in Vigilus and that was it.

 

 

On a slightly unrelated note, I'd enjoy a BL novella to flesh Haarken out a little. The bits from Vigilus and the 8.5 'dex are honestly not that telling; right now he's just some guy that likes to spook people and can't fight in melee with his spear.

 

He really does need something, he's not at all scary and had no real fights. Looking at his Wiki page, the only info we have on him is: from 2 article pages on WHC, the Vigilus books and from the revised Chaos codex. He likes Raptors and is also likes spooking people. He's really just a plot device atm that they decided to make a model for. How is this guy a lieutenant for Abaddon? Or his herald for that matter. He was thwarted time and time again and failed his 80 days self-imposed task, for a supposed "scholar of the occult" he's not particularily smart and has no tricks up his sleeves.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I think beyond the individual micro things what I want to have happen in the story is to stop trying to please all demographics.

Sorry, but this just ends up sounding like 'stop trying to please any one but me'.

 

 

What I mean by this is even when the Imperium lose, they somehow win. That sucks, that's not 40k, it's not grimdark.

When the Imperium lose they should lose hard and tragically to force the point home that they are in dire straits.

Thing is, that sort of pyrrhic 'victory' is all the Imperium ever gets, and you want that taken away too...

 

The Imperium never gets anything close to an unambiguous victory, outside of very localised, small scale BL stories (and Chaos gets them to, when they get books written about them).

 

Now, I do like me some Chaos Marines, but I'm probably more of an 'Imperial fan' overall (if for no other reason than, on the grand scale 'Imperial win=status quo, therefore more 40k, Chaos win=dead setting/drastic change, less 40k(in the form I like)'). To me, the last few years seem to have been exactly what you're asking for here. Chaos has been handed its biggest victories in the history of 40k as a setting/story. Cadia fell. No ifs, no buts. There's an extra big space hole torn across the galaxy. Chaos forces got as far as the Moon. Sure Gulliman returned and the Primaris showed up, but what has that really achieved beyond maybe slowing the bleeding? This is what really frustrates me about comments like this. It looks to me that GW have already given fans like you what you claim to want, to the detriment of what fans like me want. But it's still not enough.

 

 

So, what I would like to happen in a story progression? Beyond my oddly specific stuff above? I want Abbadon to kill a special character, no if's ands or buts, 100% dead, soul devoured by Drach'nyen, head chopped off and stuck on a spike and their body left as a lifeless husk for those that loved them to mourn over and rage at the despoiler.

How special is special? Because that is pretty much what happened to Kell at Cadia, but you disregarded him earlier in the post as 'not special enough'.

 

 

I want Abbadon the Despoiler to kill Roboute Guilliman in single combat.

I want it to be the modern retelling of the Emperor vs Horus, but Horus aka Abbadon unequivocally wins.

I want there to be art work of Abby raising the severed head of Guilliman in triumph as the big art work piece to herald the next section of the storyline.

And I want Abby to die in a firestorm of IG artillery fire like it's 1917 because that'd be plenty 'grimdark' imo. Would you be OK with that? If not, why should someone else's favourite character/s get fed to your preferred dude?

 

Grimdark (imo) doesn't mean 'bad guy wins, sucks to be Imperial'. At the core it's 'sucks to be everyone, nobody really matters, everyone can be replaced'. That should include the big wigs too, but when we talk about killing characters, it's always Imperial characters (maybe Eldar or Tau). If character killing is the path forward, everyone should be on the chopping block. Chaos dudes included.

 

 

I want a story where

• CSMs unambiguously win.
• The Alpha Legion and Words Bearers are shown as competent bad guys.
• The focus shifts from Primarchs to the little guy, akin to the Night Lords Omnibus.
• Someone dies from crossing the Rubicon Primaris.

 

Haven't read any of the 'new 40k' stuff, so I can't really say that much about point 4.

 

However, 'CSMs unambiguously win'. That seems to be pretty much what ADBs Black Legion series is about (especially book 2). The Ahriman books also got a lot of praise, but I know less about them. However, if you count short stories too, there's a bunch, most memorably the one where the AL completely wipe a loyalist Chapter (Crimson Consuls?) by shenanigans without the loyalists even noticing until it's time for the 'I've already won' type gloat (and that's far more Watchmen than Dr Evil). So stories like that are out there, just relatively few in number, because most books written aren't 'Chaos protagonist' stories.

 

This list also reminds me of the first Word Bearer book from a while back (Dark Apostle?). While I didn't much care for it, it fits your criteria of unambiguous Chaos win and WBs being competent. In fact, the main reason it didn't draw me in iirc was basically that the WBs never seemed to be really challenged, everything the Imperials threw at them was countered with drama-sapping ease.

[Guzzlrr]

I think GW codex & campaigns are being written in a vaguish way to tell a basic story to allow possible future books to be told about it.

 

Alot of good points above, I think it's mainly about perspective. I think we can all agree that most of these stories are set from the POV of the imperial side so we see alot more of that imperial win vs everything I dare say.

 

Cadia was a weird one, we lost a black fortress in a very bloody fleet war and crashed it into the planet Abaddon got stabbed in the heart again and had to retreat.

 

Cadia felt like a victory and a setback. It comes down to the imperials arch nemisis never finishing a fight without a disaster forcing him away. I think it's just maybe slightly lazy writing. When characters get into a fight in these books it's difficult to disentangle the fight without looking silly so always cheapens the event a little bit, at least imo

 

The best way I've ever seen this done was in Dark Imperium where it begins on the Pride of the emperor where Fulgrim & Guliman fought.

 

Yes this event lead to Guliman going for an extended nap but the event made it very clear Guliman got away at very large price even without the extended nap. It feels these combats in the some of these books are risk free to the point someone cant simply win a fight and the looser manages to escape by the skin of thier armour.

 

Take Abaddon & Calgar, if memory serves both thier retinues died Right away, taking the Fulgrim example why couldn't his retinue survived until that moment only to die to ensure calgars extraction ensuring his survival. The Spirit could have still be threatened but the retreat would make more sense

 

Edits: on a crappy phone

Edited December 11, 2019 by Guzzlrr

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

 

What I mean by this is even when the Imperium lose, they somehow win. That sucks, that's not 40k, it's not grimdark.

When the Imperium lose they should lose hard and tragically to force the point home that they are in dire straits.

Thing is, that sort of pyrrhic 'victory' is all the Imperium ever gets, and you want that taken away too...

 

The Imperium never gets anything close to an unambiguous victory, outside of very localised, small scale BL stories (and Chaos gets them to, when they get books written about them).

 

Now, I do like me some Chaos Marines, but I'm probably more of an 'Imperial fan' overall (if for no other reason than, on the grand scale 'Imperial win=status quo, therefore more 40k, Chaos win=dead setting/drastic change, less 40k(in the form I like)'). To me, the last few years seem to have been exactly what you're asking for here. Chaos has been handed its biggest victories in the history of 40k as a setting/story. Cadia fell. No ifs, no buts. There's an extra big space hole torn across the galaxy. Chaos forces got as far as the Moon. Sure Gulliman returned and the Primaris showed up, but what has that really achieved beyond maybe slowing the bleeding? This is what really frustrates me about comments like this. It looks to me that GW have already given fans like you what you claim to want, to the detriment of what fans like me want. But it's still not enough.

 

 

So, what I would like to happen in a story progression? Beyond my oddly specific stuff above? I want Abbadon to kill a special character, no if's ands or buts, 100% dead, soul devoured by Drach'nyen, head chopped off and stuck on a spike and their body left as a lifeless husk for those that loved them to mourn over and rage at the despoiler.

How special is special? Because that is pretty much what happened to Kell at Cadia, but you disregarded him earlier in the post as 'not special enough'.

 

 

1) Can you name a non-BL book where Chaos also doesn't have a pyrric victory? Let alone an actual victory?

Cadia was a success after the 12 crusades it miserably failed. Abaddon lost 2 Blackstone fortresses for this (I know one was technically because Huron captured G-man and Co, but it was also for helping with the crusade IIRC), an UNTOLD amount of irreplacable men, vehicles and ships for him to ONLY just win but ramming  a Blackstone fortress into the planet. He wasn't going to win otherwise.

 

You're right, pyrric victories are all the Imperium seem to get but they get FAR more than any other race or faction not just in BL but in codexes and campaign books too. Chaos's  only victory in recent memory was Cadia. Imperiums have been: Baal, Vigilus, Fenris etc etc.

 

2) Give us a Rob Stark or a Littlefinger not a Many Faced God worshipping Waif

[Iron_Within]

 

I think beyond the individual micro things what I want to have happen in the story is to stop trying to please all demographics.

Sorry, but this just ends up sounding like 'stop trying to please any one but me'.

 

 

Then you're misinterpreting what I'm saying and assuming bad faith on my part.

 

I mean that when they're writing a major plot leap forward they're trying to make every faction player happy, so even if Chaos "win" the Imperium has to "win" too because the Space Marine players will get upset. This reduces the stakes of the setting, sure there is a massive scar across the galaxy but that is not personal to people.

 

Similarly, I would have stories of the Imperial heroes in tales of revenge and/or victory, where they should unequivocally win. But they should also do terrible things because it's 40k. I mean the Imperials winning is less of an issue as they win plenty. But to your point on Pyrrhic victories, yes and no. The Imperium is "stretched" but also its resources are infinite, both these contradictory statements are true, and mean pyrrhic victories are just "victories". Losses should have meaning, victories should have meaning, a pyrrhic victory should have meaning as it's winning a battle to lose the war. 

 

Also, if everything was written to just please me ADB would be very very overworked and we'd have flagellation flails that are timed to attack whenever he stops typing for X amount of time to make him work faster. Plus he'd write a dedicated series on the Iron Warriors where Rogal Dorn comes back only to be beaten to death immediately with his severed hand by the protagonist....

 

 

 

What I mean by this is even when the Imperium lose, they some

how win. That sucks, that's not 40k, it's not grimdark.

When the Imperium lose they should lose hard and tragically to force the point home that they are in dire straits.

*SNIP*  Chaos has been handed its biggest victories in the history of 40k as a setting/story. Cadia fell. No ifs, no buts. There's an extra big space hole torn across the galaxy. Chaos forces got as far as the Moon. Sure Gulliman returned and the Primaris showed up, but what has that really achieved beyond maybe slowing the bleeding? *SNIP*.

 

 

Right so here is where our opinions diverge, you're looking at the outcome and thinking "wow, Chaos won!" and I'm looking at Cadia and thinking "Wow, this is totally irrelevant as Chaos we're always going to win".

 

In detail. Abby is on Cadia, fighting the Heroes, Kell gets killed, the Saint is fighting him, CREED is wounded, it's in the balance, all to stop Cawl and the Pylons. Cadia is flooded with mad men, Black Legion and Possessed, they're overrun, and it all looks lost save Cawls Ace card.

 

Then Cawl activates the Pylons.

BIG moment! Celestine is depowered but so is everything else as the Warp and by extension, Chaos is expelled.

 

What happens next? Abbadon gets on his deus ex Thunderhawk and goes and throws the goddam Blackstone Fortress into the planet, and still "lol troll!" Abby and the forces of Chaos win.

I. Hate. That.

This is not a Pyrrhic victory for the Imperium, it's a loss. But it's not a victory for Chaos, it's a loss. But the outcome never changed, the actions of the heroes and villains never mattered because no matter what this thing was happening. Nothing mattered because the outcome was never in doubt.

 

What I'm saying, in this story, when those Pylons went on, Abaddon and the Black Crusade should have lost. Millions upon millions dead, the entire sector crippled, kill Creed by Abaddon as an act of spite, but have the git lose here. But the whole sector is crippled. There is your Phyyric victory.

 

Have that, or have the Pylons never get switched on because Abby stops them. That is stakes that is relatable to the game. Someone wins, someone loses. 

 

 

On the note of 1917 and Abaddon(or a different Lord/special character, maybe Lucius?) dying to artillery, I'd be fine with that story with the right telling. Tell it hunt for Red October or Horror movie style, the Imperial IG commander outsmarts him luring him into a trap. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

1) Can you name a non-BL book where Chaos also doesn't have a pyrric victory? Let alone an actual victory?

 

Massacre? But as that's FW and Heresy it probably doesn't count. Codex Chaos Marines? I guess the inevitable counter question here is 'can you name a non-BL book (outside of Codexes) where anyone doesn't only get a phyrric victory?'. To which I'd say 'maybe Damocles Pt1?'. Either way, the point of contention seems to be more 'phyrric victories everywhere' rather than 'Chaos is being hard done by compared to the Imperium'.

 

Cadia was a success after the 12 crusades it miserably failed. Abaddon lost 2 Blackstone fortresses for this (I know one was technically because Huron captured G-man and Co, but it was also for helping with the crusade IIRC), an UNTOLD amount of irreplacable men, vehicles and ships for him to ONLY just win but ramming  a Blackstone fortress into the planet. He wasn't going to win otherwise.

 

Except the 12 previous crusades have been retconned into various flavours of 'just as planned' successes for Abby and co, so that the 13th was the actual first attempt to break the Cadian Gate. Now imo that series of retcons are terrible, raise a bunch of questions and just don't make that much sense, but nevertheless it's the official line these days.

 

Thing is, Abby's gear is totally replaceable, he'll always be able to pull more resources out of his space hole. That's an inherent conceit of the CSM as a faction, inserting 'warp shenanigans' to cover the fact that their logistics don;t make any sense and the Traitor Legions should've fallen apart in a cannibalistic salvage frenzy long ago. Who lost more at Cadia, Imperium or Chaos. Chaos lost a Blackstone and a pile of dudes and ships. The Imperium also lost a pile of dudes and ships (and unfortunately Imperial logistics doesn't even have the easy 'get out' Chaos does), plus the lynchpin of their entire defensive strategy and the most well protected system outside Terra itself. Seems like a pretty good trade on Abby's part imo.

 

 

You're right, pyrric victories are all the Imperium seem to get but they get FAR more than any other race or faction not just in BL but in codexes and campaign books too. Chaos's  only victory in recent memory was Cadia. Imperiums have been: Baal, Vigilus, Fenris etc etc.

They get far more because they end up involved in everything. Now, if I was up to me, that wouldn't be the case. I'd love to see the next major campaign supplement be something like 'Tau Empire takes Hive Fleet Leviathan in the face' or 'Ghaz picks a fight with Abby'. But 'Imperium vs X' always seems to be the format used, so the Imperium ends up with more coverage, and therefore more unsatisfying pyrrhic 'victories' than the other factions.

 

Although I would dispute that Fenris counts as a win for the Imperium and nothing for Chaos. Sure, Fenris wasn't destroyed, but Magnus still got his 'just as planned' shenanigans with bringing Sortiarius into realspace (and that's ignoring the more ephemeral outcomes of that warzone, like the DAs picking a fight with the Wolves over the Wulfen, and the massive damage to Fenris itself, including some deeply unpopular outcomes reagrding the native populace). I guess that's the heart of this issue, when everyone leaves 'event X' feeling like their side lost (and take it from a Wolves player, Fenris sure as didn't feel like even a pyrrhic victory), nobody ends up happy and 'don't offend anyone' gets received more as 'they never give anything positive to my dudes'.

 

 

 

Then you're misinterpreting what I'm saying and assuming bad faith on my part.

 

I wouldn't say that. I don't think I'm assuming bad faith on your part, I believe your opinions are honest, and that what you've suggested would improve the 40k setting/story for you. My point is, what you view as a step in right direction actively damages what I like and want to see in 40k. So if you get what you want my hobby experience gets worse. This is the inherent issue with 'plot advancement' and why I've been against it since I saw the mess GW made of Fantasy. I just don't see how you can do it well enough to not generate bad blood among the very partisan fanbase.

 

Which I assume is why GW have been cagey and trying to 'please both sides' as it were. As much as I'd like to see (for example) Abby put down like a punk (because he's by far my most disliked character in the setting), if I was the IP supremo, I'd be extremely reluctant to pull the trigger on that, because of the backlash when some people's 'guy' gets a bad ending, or even just killed, regardless of circumstance. I don't know what the best route is with this issue.

 

 

What happens next? Abbadon gets on his deus ex Thunderhawk and goes and throws the goddam Blackstone Fortress into the planet, and still "lol troll!" Abby and the forces of Chaos win.

I. Hate. That.

This is not a Pyrrhic victory for the Imperium, it's a loss. But it's not a victory for Chaos, it's a loss. But the outcome never changed, the actions of the heroes and villains never mattered because no matter what this thing was happening. Nothing mattered because the outcome was never in doubt.

Sorry, but I don't think I'm following here. While I agree Gathering Storm was some terribly written tripe, I don't see how Cadia became a loss for Chaos just because Abby had to match one flavour of deus ex machina (the Plyons) with his own deus ex (ramming the disabled Blackstone into the planet). Yes it was terrible, and could have been done better, but the Imperium still emphatically lost regardless.

[Iron_Within]

*SNIP*

Sorry, but I don't think I'm following here. While I agree Gathering Storm was some terribly written tripe, I don't see how Cadia became a loss for Chaos just because Abby had to match one flavour of deus ex machina (the Plyons) with his own deus ex (ramming the disabled Blackstone into the planet). Yes it was terrible, and could have been done better, but the Imperium still emphatically lost regardless.

 

 

I think we're having a carrot and parsnip argument here - which is to say we're arguing over two different things but the core is the same (they're both vegetables).

In the details, uou don't see where I'm coming from, and I don't understand where you're coming from. But what I'm getting is (using Gathering Storm as an example) is neither like bad writing, which I think there has been quite a bit on.

 

To answer your question directly on Cadia - because the writing and the story leading to the destruction of Cadia left a bad taste, your quips about everyone having their deus ex machina is what annoys me about the story. You're right they did, and it took away from the story, made everything matter less if Abby could just throw a blackstone frisbee at the planet and be done with it. There should be a winner, and a loser in terms of the military war/overarching campaign, however, you can have individual stories of hope, of sacrifice of heroics where people get their time to shine.

And to answer a question about Kell. No he wasn't, he was the Humie Makari. He had no character development whatsoever other than he was Creeds banner guy.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Iron_Within

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah, if Cadia was just getting destroyed by a kamikaze BF, this could have happened just after the Gothic War when Abby got the forts. The Pylons seem like a waste of time if you just blow up the place where most of them are anyway.  

[ChazSexington]

 

 

 

I want a story where

• CSMs unambiguously win.
• The Alpha Legion and Words Bearers are shown as competent bad guys.
• The focus shifts from Primarchs to the little guy, akin to the Night Lords Omnibus.
• Someone dies from crossing the Rubicon Primaris.

 

Haven't read any of the 'new 40k' stuff, so I can't really say that much about point 4.

 

However, 'CSMs unambiguously win'. That seems to be pretty much what ADBs Black Legion series is about (especially book 2). The Ahriman books also got a lot of praise, but I know less about them. However, if you count short stories too, there's a bunch, most memorably the one where the AL completely wipe a loyalist Chapter (Crimson Consuls?) by shenanigans without the loyalists even noticing until it's time for the 'I've already won' type gloat (and that's far more Watchmen than Dr Evil). So stories like that are out there, just relatively few in number, because most books written aren't 'Chaos protagonist' stories.

 

This list also reminds me of the first Word Bearer book from a while back (Dark Apostle?). While I didn't much care for it, it fits your criteria of unambiguous Chaos win and WBs being competent. In fact, the main reason it didn't draw me in iirc was basically that the WBs never seemed to be really challenged, everything the Imperials threw at them was countered with drama-sapping ease.

 

 

I should've been more clear; I mean full-length books with CSMs facing SMs in a roughly even fight, but win due to their experience and tactical acumen. No obvious plot armour, overwhelming numbers, get out of jail free cards, or Deus Ex Machinas.  

 

Abaddon mainly fights other CSMs then he fights the Black Templars, which, IIRC, he outnumbers handidly. 

I've actually not the read Ahriman stuff, but it's on my list. 

Long Games at Carcharias (the Alpha Legion one) is an unambiguous win, and I really liked it! 

 

[Vorenus]

Give LORDS OF SILENCE a try. I enjoyed it.

[Guzzlrr]

Give LORDS OF SILENCE a try. I enjoyed it.

this will be my next book after the siege of terra !