The Eldar in the HH

[TorvaldTheMild]

How would they be a distraction.  The point is, is that they would be integral to more stories which you could easily right, you just don't want that.  Doesn't mean they are not important to the lore.  

Taking longer than a millennium for the most advanced race in existence to get their together is a bit over the top, that doesn't speak well of the Eldar.  It took Eldrad hardly any time at all to get his together and become the badass that he was destined to become, same with his students.

You can write stories with the neglected legions involving stories with the Eldar.  The skies the limit and saying that the Eldar should have had a more important role considering that the HH effects their whole future and survival I don't think that is an unreasonable thing to think.  I mean they don't have to be in every novel, just write even one novel where the Eldar have a serious role in the HH.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

No, there's a definite limit in terms if how much attention the authors and arguably the audience can give something. The Iron Hands, a major Legion, were.meant to get their own book and didn't due to scheduling limits. Try and look at it this way: if BL is having to cut Legion-centric books, it follows that they haven't time to focus on another faction who are less important to the overarching story.

 

You can find all the logic reasons you like, but it all comes down to the fact that the Heresy is the tale of how a huge civil war broke the Imperium of Man. It's not about the Eldar, ergo they're not in it very much.

 

It took humanity five millennia to start patching itself back together, and they didn't have the psychological wreckage of literal damnation and their gods being devoured.

[TorvaldTheMild]

No, there's a definite limit in terms if how much attention the authors and arguably the audience can give something. The Iron Hands, a major Legion, were.meant to get their own book and didn't due to scheduling limits. Try and look at it this way: if BL is having to cut Legion-centric books, it follows that they haven't time to focus on another faction who are less important to the overarching story.

 

You can find all the logic reasons you like, but it all comes down to the fact that the Heresy is the tale of how a huge civil war broke the Imperium of Man. It's not about the Eldar, ergo they're not in it very much.

 

It took humanity five millennia to start patching itself back together, and they didn't have the psychological wreckage of literal damnation and their gods being devoured.

Do you write for BL or work for them?  

 

Not all HH projects are planned, the writers are given a lot of leeway with what they right. Some BL writers have even said that BL don't tell us what to right.

 

Humanity vs Eldar are two completely different cases.  Eldar craftworlds had everything they needed to survive and they could travel the webway the only thing they needed to do was learn the path, which doesn't take a millennia, its a simple concept and 1000 years is an inordinate amount of time, I don't think you appreciate how long that is, regardless of how strongly they feel emotions.  Humans had devolved into techno barbarians their technology on Terra took a serious dive, human colonies couldn't travel with the warp storms etc.  They are not analogous in any way shape or form with the Eldar.  

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

I'm inferring, but it seems like a logical deduction to me.

 

Well, what other in-universe comparisons do we have for the Eldar pulling themselves back together? Otherwise we're in he-said-this-he-said-that territory.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Its only a logical deduction in relation to the position you have taken in this argument.

There doesn't have to be another in-universe comparison for the Eldar pulling themselves together.  There is no evidence to suggest they didn't pull themselves together within 1000 years which is the claim you are making.  I am saying that is unrealistic.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

Well yes, but how else do you explain that we've had two prominent Eldar characters in a fifty-novel-plus series? It's primarily about human factions, and some of those human factions have lost out in terms of focus, so it makes sense for another faction which plays a much smaller role to be neglected too.

 

Also, realism and a psychic race of space elves traumatised by their gods being eaten are never going to have the closest relationship.

[Beren]

Also, don't forget that Eldar have a much longer lifespan than humans, with much lower reproduction rates, and that there was at least one Craftworld found half dead and utterly insane as a result of the Fall.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Beren

[TorvaldTheMild]

Its moot anyway, the Hand of Asuryan series has shown that the Eldar are completely able to get their together straight after the birth of Slaanesh.  Also the Eldar have already interfered during the HH, so I don't know what we are arguing.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[bluntblade]

Because they seemingly haven't done much of note in the Heresy. I haven't read that book, but we have canon instances of Eldar Craftworlds going mad from the Fall. Those who adjusted well are likely the minority who saw it coming and fortified themselves against what was to come.

 

If we want to go in-character, Eldar Farseers may have seen one or both of the Acuity visions presented to Alpharius and Omegon. For them to see the Imperium tearing itself apart and stay at a safe distance makes perfect sense to me.

[Raktra]

Well Blunt’s arguing actual sense, logic, and reason. God alone knows what you’re prattling on about.

[bluntblade]

Play nice, Raktra

[Vykes]

Do I want Eldar to show up more in the Horus Heresy?  No. Less is frankly preferable.  

 

Leave them to their own dedicated short stories, use them if the plot absolutely demands it.  Frankly, I find is mildly distasteful that 40K side show factions end up with their thing in the Heresy which is still, to me, a Miltonian epic about mankind versus itself in all its dark and miserable guises.  As previously stated, there's legions and human factions that were important, who drew the short straw and are under-represented in how everything came about.  

 

Asked and answered: I don't care about 'whatabouts' and what not, I don't want to hear about more knife-ears in my Heresy.  That said, the inclusion of the lesser heard of alien races tends to make it feel more expansive as one-offs, and I'm okay with that.  Big galaxy, lots of room, fine with some others showing up now and then.  

 

Now, in a setting about the Great Crusade or flashbacks from that era of expansion, that's where I'm far more amicable to have the Eldar show up.  Not the Heresy, I just don't like it thematically. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Vykes

[TorvaldTheMild]

Well Blunt’s arguing actual sense, logic, and reason. God alone knows what you’re prattling on about.

Are you kidding, what's your problem?.  Explain what is so lacking in sense logic and reason in my comments.  "The Eldar safeguarding their future by trying to stop Horus winning the war and allowing a Slaanesh army that can exist in the materium" yeah that's illogical...  The Eldar are so consumed in sadness and grief about the loss of their Empire that they are anable to do anything for 1000 years even though they had everything they needed on their craftworld and safe travel through the galaxy, while Asurman was busy rocking and rolling the day of the fall and got all his students into order and the students of his students in order from the get go, yeah illogical. The only one not showing any sense, logic or reason is you.  Also this is a matter of opinion and the lore is at least on my side, so maybe you just got out of bed the wrong way or you are just that guy in forums like this or you're the kind of person that has nothing of worth to say for himself so you just blindly agree with other people which seems the case as you haven't added anything to the argument other than a dismissive rude comment that isn't even accurate.  Maybe you can't follow the argument.  I doubt you'll have anything interesting or intelligent to add to the discussion anyways.  

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[SkimaskMohawk]

Eldar are basically elves, and one of their main hooks is how they deal with time. It takes a long time for them to grow up, it takes a long time to reproduce; it all takes a long time. You say "all they have to do is learn the way of the paths, and that's easy". How? Their culture didn't have anything to do with the concept of paths; we don't know how their level of technology was affected by the Fall (if Dark Eldar are the "inheritors" of the Empire, then we have to think about wraithbone vs the DE tech); their population was decimated.  Now they have to rebuild, pretty much from scratch and you have to take into account that they're slow at doing stuff culturally (they consider humans extremely rash). So with all that, they should be good to go by the time of the heresy, taking on both sides and playing major parts? No. They weren't in any position to take a major stance during the heresy; the imperium stomped them all the time they ran across to start with.

 

And, like always, Torvald gets dunked on in his troll threads.

Edited December 11, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[TorvaldTheMild]

Eldar are basically elves, and one of their main hooks is how they deal with time. It takes a long time for them to grow up, it takes a long time to reproduce; it all takes a long time. You say "all they have to do is learn the way of the paths, and that's easy". How? Their culture didn't have anything to do with the concept of paths; we don't know how their level of technology was affected by the Fall (if Dark Eldar are the "inheritors" of the Empire, then we have to think about wraithbone vs the DE tech); their population was decimated.  Now they have to rebuild, pretty much from scratch and you have to take into account that they're slow at doing stuff culturally (they consider humans extremely rash). So with all that, they should be good to go by the time of the heresy, taking on both sides and playing major parts? No. They weren't in any position to take a major stance during the heresy; the imperium stomped them all the time they ran across to start with.

Because Asurman showed them, he created the path.  The population of their Craftworlds weren't decimated and its the same ancestors in which their progeny is out in the stars at present.  The path isn't just about learning things to perfection over their long lives, its about devoting everything of themselves to a single pursuit and sacrificing and being disciplined so that they can combat their seductive nature, its about what they are doing at the present.  Also not every Eldar follows the path and they get on fine.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Beren]

The lore I'm familiar with most certainly does not have Asurmen 'rocking and rolling on the day of the fall'. Nor were the Craftworlds remotely 'safe travel'. We already know some where decimated by the psychic fallout of the Fall. We know several were destroyed by the Imperium. At least two I know of ended up lost in the warp for extended periods of time. Illryth spent years searching for the Ccraftworld of Mymeara in order to stop it being wiped out by a local xenos race.

 

You're speaking as if they were left undisturbed during this time period, and that the Path system was set up from the get go. They weren't, and it wasn't.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Beren

[TorvaldTheMild]

The lore I'm familiar with most certainly does not have Asurmen 'rocking and rolling on the day of the fall'. Nor were the Craftworlds remotely 'safe travel'. We already know some where decimated by the psychic fallout of the Fall. We know several were destroyed by the Imperium. At least two I know of ended up lost in the warp for extended periods of time. Illryth spent years searching for the Ccraftworld of Mymeara in order to stop it being wiped out by a local xenos race.

 

You're speaking as if they were left undisturbed during this time period, and that the Path system was set up from the get go. They weren't, and it wasn't.

Asurman started training himself from the get go, the actual day of the fall.  That some parts of the webway were unsafe is irrelevant.  They were safe travel in terms of faster than light and the places in the webway are far safer than humans mode of travel which was the point.   I'm not speaking as if they were left undisturbed during that time period, that hasn't got anything to do with what we are talking about.  The argument is that they couldn't interfere with the HH directly because of the fall.  The Eldar were no where near as 'disturbed' as present day Eldar and the present day Eldar find enough time to safeguard their species and interfere with the Imperium etc.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Qkhitai]

I'm not sure the Eldar were in any position to challenge the legions, or to impact or take sides in the Heresy in the same way as in, say, the 13th Black Crusade. I personally found the whole Cabal storyline a bit too intrusive on the main Heresy narrative, and I don't think any xenos shenanigans should be pulled out of the hat to change years/decades of established fluff. But the galaxy is a big place and there is still space for the Eldar in the Heresy time frame. Like how for example there are loxatl mercenaries in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. They don't have a massive influence on the plot, they don't really detract from what is essentially a human-on-human conflict, but their presence adds an interesting dimension to it, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to mirror to some extent in the Heresy. I'd like to see the odd xenos or Eldar popping up more now and again, maybe as Agents of the Emperor/Warmaster etc, or as a 0-1 Blackshield choice, or even a limited, generic, customisable list ala Daemons of the Ruinstorm. Can find room to add them in without taking anything away from the central storyline. FW especially has created enough conflicts and characters and groups throughout the black books that have 0 bearing on the Heresy canon; involving an Eldar here or there would be fine in my book.

 

For example, it would be dumb for a bunch of Striking Scorpions accompany the Emperor when he boards the Vengeful Spirit, or to have Eldrad duel Magnus on the Walls of Terra, but what about:

• Opportunistic Eldar corsairs inadvertently end up harrying traitor supply lines and an Alpha Legion headhunter team is sent to deal with them
• A depleted Blackshield company has to enter into an uneasy pact with a group of Eldar mercenaries in order to survive
• Stuck behind enemy lines, a Knight Errant has to recruit some unlikely Eldar allies in order to carry out an assassination on a traitor commander
• A loyalist company of marines return from duty with the nomad-predation fleets with a Rogue Trader and her coterie of xenos companions 
• A rogue farseer offers his aid to a stranded world in Imperium Secundus in combating the perils of the ruinstorm, but for a price...
• The Night Lords recruit a Dark Eldar torturer to extract information from a prisoner that they can't break
• A mauled craftworld sees the chaos of the Heresy as an opportunity to liberate a maiden world colonised by the Imperium during the Great Crusade

I think there could be fluffy reasons for having small groups of Eldar pop up without completely breaking the Heresy. Might make for some very interesting narrative games.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Qkhitai

[Slips]

Alright, so, I can't believe I have to actually make this post but, oh well.

 

Now, I generally dont care what topics get posted in the AoD as long as a few things are observed:

• That its related to 30k
• That the Board Rules are being followed
• That the discussion within the topic is itself constructive and conducted respectfully
• That I don't feel like I have to step in and take disciplinary action against grown adults that are bickering like children

As long as ALL of the above are observed, then go for it, have fun.

 

So, feel free to go down that bullet point real quick as a reference before hitting that *post* button next time.

 

Keep it clean, keep it respectful.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Slips

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think a problem is that a lot of us haven't read the Eldar books like Hand of Asuryan or Jain Zar. But going off the infamous 'Khârn is used to make other people look good' thread, the OP is known for "misremembering" a lot of supporting detail; a quick wiki check has asurmen contemplating suicide after years of being stranded on his planet. Clearly at the end of his rock and roll career instead of the start, if you know what I mean.

[bluntblade]

But even if that were the case, I think it would be counter-thematic to have the entire Eldar species to go "well, that happened" and immediately start working away in their new form. Especially as we have an example of an Eldar Craftworld launching a mad, genocidal campaign as a result of the collective trauma they experienced.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I think a problem is that a lot of us haven't read the Eldar books like Hand of Asuryan or Jain Zar. But going off the infamous 'Khârn is used to make other people look good' thread, the OP is known for "misremembering" a lot of supporting detail; a quick wiki check has asurmen contemplating suicide after years of being stranded on his planet. Clearly at the end of his rock and roll career instead of the start, if you know what I mean.

So I misremembered that bit but it only took him 7 years to get his together, so I may been off a bit but my point still stands.   And enough with that, every comment or thread I make you keep saying that, its getting tiring.  Everyone misremembers stuff and I was absolutely right about that Khârn bit and you said that there as well because you couldn't refute what I said.  If anyone is known for something you are known for ad-hominems when you can't refute your point, so you'll constantly say 'he's known for this' rather than actually tackling the argument.  If I'm known for misremembering then you don't have to bring it up in every thread I make.  So much so that you amongst others will always take the adversarial position in my posts and then find yourselves in ridiculous positions like saying it took 1000 years for the Eldar to get their :cuss together.

Edited December 12, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Charlo]

There's a great fan rule book for Eldar in 30k by the Australian community.

 

If you want then use that but they really do not have a place in the FW books.

[Brother Tholath]

It's not just the Eldar having "recently" been hit with losing their civilisation. It's also that the HH is about the fracturing of the Imperium of Man, the loss that represents. Showing everything that both factions do to one another in their aim to win. Adding xenos, any xeno really, not just Eldar, pulls away from that.

 

If the book is set in the GC, or even has some flashbacks, sure, I can dig some eldar, and other stuff besides.

 

But when I'm reading about the shattered legions attacking any traitor units they can, or the Iron Warriors slowly pulling back from the Ultramarins, trying to slow them from getting to Terra, I don't care about what Xenos are doing.

[bluntblade]

I still disagree with you about the Khârn bit, but if you really want to re-run that it has it's own thread.

 

Asurmen, from my reading, is just one legendary guy, compared to all the Eldar variously seen going berserk, fleeing to the edges of the Galaxy or seemingly walking off a few relatively small sections of the Webway for refuge from the Imperial forces there. He doesn't seem representative.