Ibram Gaunt vs Ciaphas Cain

[TorvaldTheMild]

Who's your favourite Commissar, Ibram or Ciaphas?  I have to go with Ciaphas Cain, he says he's a coward but he's not at all, he just cares about himself more than everyone else.

[Lord Marshal]

I love Gaunt, but he's only as interesting as the people around him.

[Grotsmasha]

I prefer Gaunt as a character, but enjoyed Ciaphus' novels more I think

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Cain. His world is not the "No hope for the future, no chance for victory, no point in fighting; just put a bag over your head, lie down, and wait to die," story talentless hacks keep making of the "grimdarkness" characteristic to Warhammer 40,000 (I'm looking at you, Gav Thorpe for your Dark Angels novels, Matt Ward for 5th Edition's Codex: Grey Knights, and the editors who let them turn the game into a laughingstock for 4chan to mock); it's a "Life is hard, but have hope! We CAN win if we stand together and brainstorm a plan for victory!"

 

Yes, I know Gaunt has won great victories; but Cain's were won at a lower cost, preserving the lives of guardsmen and women who could and did go on to fight- and WIN- other battles in the Emperor's name.

[dice4thedicegod]

Cain is fun.

 

Gaunt is like a knock off Sharpe.

[Shamansky]

Yes, I know Gaunt has won great victories; but Cain's were won at a lower cost, preserving the lives of guardsmen and women who could and did go on to fight- and WIN- other battles in the Emperor's name.

And some 'small' victories of Cain had much bigger strategic consequences than just 'we're alive and they're dead, YAY!'.

[HallofStovokor]

Cain is the guy who can never catch a break. Wherever he goes all hell breaks loose. If I were to say my favorite though it would be neither. The Old Man is the best commissar. He can't die and has been serving well after he was supposed to retire. He's pretty much the 41st millennium's Captain Ahab and Ghazkull is his white whale.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I vote for Gaunt.

 

I could never get into Cain. The novels I tried just seemed more like a comedy parody of 40k than 40k. Cain is like Galaxy Quest to 40k's Star Trek. Or he's Space Balls to 40k's Star Wars.

 

I know some people consider Galaxy Quest the best Star Trek movie, I'm just not one of them.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

The real question is who would win in a fight?

[crimsondave]

Cain.  He's a sensible character surrounded by a universe of insane people and he just feels more realistic.

[Shamansky]

I vote for Gaunt.

 

I could never get into Cain. The novels I tried just seemed more like a comedy parody of 40k than 40k. Cain is like Galaxy Quest to 40k's Star Trek. Or he's Space Balls to 40k's Star Wars.

 

I know some people consider Galaxy Quest the best Star Trek movie, I'm just not one of them.

First of all the whole 40k is a parody. Now even of itself.

Cain is just more realistic view on the epic scale of 40k. I'd say 'more adult' view. He does know that heroes in most cases are dead people so he's happy to give the job to wanting ones. The character is built in much more interesting way of constant conflict of his wishes and doings. And he's not the cardboard person (like uncountable many other heroes of the 40k universe) whoes only wish and motivation is 'to bring righteous vengeance to those who dare to oppose His eternal light" or "stand the line 'till the last breath". He's a man with his weakness, cavities and flaws. But also he's inventive, skilled and sharp minded person who would deal with the problems by only means he's got on hands instead of waiting for a divine intervention or falling on his knees in panic and dispair. His way of telling about horrors and troubles of his past with a big portion of humour can be easily explained by defencive mechanism of our mind. And what he saw and survived could really traumatise anyone and maybe it did harmed Cain's emotions so he jokes about his naghtmarish past full of blood, deaths and things more frightening than death.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I know some people consider Galaxy Quest the best Star Trek movie, I'm just not one of them.

Galaxy Quest was released between Insurrection and Nemesis, two of the absolute worst Star Trek movies of all time, making the parody look AWESOME in comparison. (The Wrath of Khan and The Undiscovered Country are far superior to Galaxy Quest, which is itself far superior to J. J. Abrams' half-baked "reboots.") Ciaphas Cain's are a fun-to-read books among depressing stories so "grimdark" they make the reader want to slit his wrists; is it any wonder he's popular?

 

The real question is who would win in a fight?

Gaunt has better weapons- two bolt pistols, a power sword, the Tanith "straight silver" as a backup- plus a camo cloak. However, Cain's near-paranoia alertness will likely prevent Gaunt from taking him by surprise; Inquisitor Amberley Vail, of the Ordo Xenos, notes Cain's excellent marksmanship allowed him to scored hits beyond his laspistol's theoretical maximum effective range, meaning he has a chance of taking Gaunt by surprise; and his non-standard style of swordsmanship (which allowed him to best instructors at the Schola he taught at, after retiring from active service) makes him unpredictable in close combat.

 

It mostly comes down to brains, tenacity, and dumb luck. Gaunt and Cain seem roughly equal in brains; Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell are both skilled writers, and neither lobotomize the antagonists in their novel to give their protagonists the victory. Gaunt has demonstrated great tenacity, fighting on after suffering grave injuries; Cain never had to demonstrate such tenacity, as he was able to avoid injury (with the notable exception of fingers lost during his first encounter with the Necrons). But Cain undoubtedly has superior luck.

 

 

=][= Merge error, second half belongs to TorvaldTheMild =][=

 

Cain is the guy who can never catch a break. Wherever he goes all hell breaks loose. If I were to say my favorite though it would be neither. The Old Man is the best commissar. He can't die and has been serving well after he was supposed to retire. He's pretty much the 41st millennium's Captain Ahab and Ghazkull is his white whale.

Yeah I love Yarrick but he hasn't had the same focus, he's unfortunately only had a couple of novels dedicated to him, which is why I left him out.

 

 

I think the problem I had with Gaunt is that the first novel was terribly written, it went from one plot story to the next without introducing them some it became hard to keep track, it would be talking about one situation and then there would be a new paragraph with a new situation, without explaining it or introducing it, although Abnett is a great writer, that book was an example of his worst work and it was really bad. Also I loved Ciaphas, guy was a legend.

Edited December 10, 2019 by duz_
Merged double posts

[Lord Marshal]

Cain. His world is not the "No hope for the future, no chance for victory, no point in fighting; just put a bag over your head, lie down, and wait to die," story talentless hacks keep making of the "grimdarkness" characteristic to Warhammer 40,000 (I'm looking at you, Gav Thorpe for your Dark Angels novels, Matt Ward for 5th Edition's Codex: Grey Knights, and the editors who let them turn the game into a laughingstock for 4chan to mock); it's a "Life is hard, but have hope! We CAN win if we stand together and brainstorm a plan for victory!"

 

Yes, I know Gaunt has won great victories; but Cain's were won at a lower cost, preserving the lives of guardsmen and women who could and did go on to fight- and WIN- other battles in the Emperor's name.

I don't really know if we read the same series. By 40k standards, Gaunt's Ghosts isn't that dark and definitely not grimdark. It consistently presents a much more grounded depiction of the Guard than the vast majority of Black Library content. Things go wrong - often horribly - but the Ghosts usually persevere in the end, albeit sometimes at a cost... but it's military sci-fi, so that's a given. Very little feels truly hopeless or in vain. The early books do have a thread of "The Ghosts turn the tide, but they're a barely acknowledged footnote" however nearing the midpoint of the series that begins to change.

 

The battles the Ghosts usually get themselves wrapped up in almost always involve Gaunt doing his utmost to save the lives of his men. One of the constant plot points is him trying to do so when other officers are detrimental to that... but similarly, there's just as many Guard officers up and down the ranks who're presented as decent or well-meaning (and competent) as Gaunt. The stereotypical BLAMissars almost never make it to the end of a book either.

 

Hell, I've read plenty of people complain that Gaunt's Ghosts isn't grimdark enough, or Ibram isn't a 'proper' Commissar and couldn't get into it due to expecting that. The actions Cain is a part of are often on a smaller scale to Gaunt's regimental ventures to boot, and when Gaunt does have such moments the mortality rate is typically lower as well (unless you're a the-only-native-officer-friendly-to-Gaunt then you're doomed).

Edited December 11, 2019 by Lord Marshal

[librisrouge]

Cain is a more entertaining character. His supporting cast, while smaller, is well rounded for the setting. I'm particularly a fan of Inquisitor Vale and would love a book where she is the main character. I'd fork out for the special edition even.

 

Gaunt, however, needs to be considered in the context of his setting. Gaunt's Ghosts seems to be an attempt to tell a serious war story in the setting of 40k. While I'm hardly revolutionary in making the comparison, it is similar to Saving Private Ryan but IN SPACE!!!! This means that Gaunt can't be as light hearted or as quippy as Cain can be because of the necessary realism of his sort of story. It would break immersion. Within that context, he is a hell of a character and grows significantly over the course of the narrative. He is inspiring in a more traditional way than Cain and sprinkles a bit of genuine hope in an otherwise morose setting.

 

In that light, both are equally excellent characters but comparing them becomes almost apples and oranges. Cain provides an almost comedic take on the grimdark setting we love while Gaunt attempts to look through it with realism and even a degree of hope. Which you prefer probably depends on which version of 40k you'd like to be immersed in.

[Son of Sacrifice]

I think that the Ghosts series taken as a whole is really excellent, as good as 40k writing gets. Sure some of the series are inferior to others, I think that's to be expected over 10+ novels.

[Cleon]

_{For me it's Cain, although the option is a little 'Blackadder in Space' versus 'Sharpe in Space' and as such both calling back to what are for me at least two beloved series.}