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Lets Chat: Competitive Versus Casual


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#126
Black Blow Fly

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#127
Vykes

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Iron Warriors X3, but legit I can't tell you why (I mean yes they all included tyrants and Pert), but that was the spread.  Add mechanicum to the initial list (they got half the games before the EC player subbed in mid-way through).  

 

And yes I know it's not a good sample size, and yes I know it's anecdotal: but it is relatively normal for my area.  Thus it's what I have to deal with as 'typical'.


Edited by Vykes, 15 January 2020 - 03:14 AM.

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#128
MegaVolt87

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6-7 legion to non legion split, despite dupes seems relatively even though IMO.
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#129
Panzer

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Aye, and definitely not SM 24/7.


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#130
Bung

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ITC has a huge impact on rules. Chapter Approved is more or less published yearly to try and correct any issues found from tournament results, abuse of loopholes and the current meta. They can candy coat it with useless VDR rules or whatever, but the main purpose is to continually rebalance the game as a result of competitive play.

 

Which shouldnt be needed that much, if you had a more or less balanced game.

 

Let's be real though. That isn't how it works,, never will be, and furthermore: It's in neither the players nor the creator's interests to strive towards it.

You ever play an online RPG? Something like World of Warcraft? You know how players would always whine about the state of balance, and yet the more balanced it got the more people would complain about the "stale meta" and how there needs to be something new and fresh? So instead what that game (and every other MMORPG) does, is just continually change the balance, change the meta, for no real reason other than to keep people running on the treadmill. Adjusting to changes. Otherwise it just dries up- It gets stale.

That, is how it be.

That's one of the reasons I can never stick with an online game, for the record. It's the same reason I wouldn't ever take competitive Warhammer seriously.

 

 

I am not into MMOs of any sort, for various reasons. First grinding is nothing i could enjoy and the second is the people i met in that games make it even more  unpleasant as playing 40k neckbeards. Maybe i am to old for that crowd, but neither the typicall grinding of MMORPGs nor the community of minor crybabies that cant lose is in anyway appealing to me.

On the other side, you are right 40k reached a level of some video game companies selling an unfinished product that needs debugging.

 

Sorry give the people enough time to get their job done instead looking for cashflow and there wouldnt be that much need of fixing after release.



#131
Panzer

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On the other side, you are right 40k reached a level of some video game companies selling an unfinished product that needs debugging.

 

Sorry give the people enough time to get their job done instead looking for cashflow and there wouldnt be that much need of fixing after release. 

 

That's not what he said. He's talking about balance patches, not fixing unfinished games.

Also saying "give the people enough time to get their job done" is rather naive. Sure some games get rushed too much but I can assure you that modern games will always have bugs etc. that need fixing no matter how much time the developers would get. This is very offtopic now though.


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#132
Bung

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On the other side, you are right 40k reached a level of some video game companies selling an unfinished product that needs debugging.

 

Sorry give the people enough time to get their job done instead looking for cashflow and there wouldnt be that much need of fixing after release. 

 

That's not what he said. He's talking about balance patches, not fixing unfinished games.

Also saying "give the people enough time to get their job done" is rather naive. Sure some games get rushed too much but I can assure you that modern games will always have bugs etc. that need fixing no matter how much time the developers would get. This is very offtopic now though.

 

 

Yes it is.

I have been long enough involved with 40k to see it go from "We dont need FaQs and Erratas cause everything we do is fine" (thats been around 4th Edition) to same day FaQ when the Codex hit the shelfs. 

Not much difference to much videogame companies and their patch pattern.

 

I stand by my opinion, get some good game designers with enough time to make a balanced game and if you want to insert something new to the game get some playtesting done so ot will fit into the game. 

When it works for other games, why shouldnt it work for GW? The only answer is loss of sales and unhappy shareholders. 

The other point is, keeping peopel that just cant dial back in your game design team doesnt help either. 



#133
jaxom

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I was always under the impression that HH was designed with a more narrative perspective in mind. That balance was really just there to make sure it was worth playing.

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#134
DuskRaider

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I was always under the impression that HH was designed with a more narrative perspective in mind. That balance was really just there to make sure it was worth playing.


It is... was. It seems since the Prospero book that it's gone in a very different direction from when I played.

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#135
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I am not into MMOs of any sort, for various reasons. First grinding is nothing i could enjoy and the second is the people i met in that games make it even more  unpleasant as playing 40k neckbeards. Maybe i am to old for that crowd, but neither the typicall grinding of MMORPGs nor the community of minor crybabies that cant lose is in anyway appealing to me.
On the other side, you are right 40k reached a level of some video game companies selling an unfinished product that needs debugging.
 
Sorry give the people enough time to get their job done instead looking for cashflow and there wouldnt be that much need of fixing after release.


I don't disagree- It's not the direction I WANT this game to have gone in. But it is, after all, a product sold and run by a commercial entity. It doesn't matter too much what crusty old narrative players like us think. They have to shift units.

As Panzer said, you do misunderstand my point. My point isn't that they're releasing something unfinished which they then have to fix later, my point is that it's intentionally rebalanced on entirely arbitrary grounds. The changes themselves are almost irrelevant, the point is that it gives the players a reason to alter their list, buy a couple new models, and gives the podcasts something to discuss.

 

I know this argument is itself hotly contested, but honestly I think it's plain to see, and GW doesn't even deny it. If they didn't continually refresh the books, the rules, the balance, the player base would decline, and more importantly so would sales. Hence why I compared it to MMORPGs- The same reason is why World of Warcraft releases a new expansion like clockwork every other year. As soon as people get used to the meta, and work out the "optimal" build for their character, they find there's nothing left to do. Nothing to work towards.

Case in point? Age of Sigmar.

(Aside: If you knew me personally you'd know I'm a giant commie and I hate most practices of big business and unrestricted capitalism in general; especially so in the videogame industry. But the difference is the videogame industry is the biggest entertainment industry on Earth. Companies like EA and Blizzard already make billions upon billions of dollars every year, so criticising their business practices is much more valid. Games Workshop, on the other hand, is tiny. Seriously tiny. Therefore, I do tend to let them off the hook a little bit, because they're the kind of company who could very realistically crash and burn if they don't do everything they can to keep money coming in.)


Edited by Vermintide, Yesterday, 05:44 PM.

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#136
Bung

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I am not into MMOs of any sort, for various reasons. First grinding is nothing i could enjoy and the second is the people i met in that games make it even more  unpleasant as playing 40k neckbeards. Maybe i am to old for that crowd, but neither the typicall grinding of MMORPGs nor the community of minor crybabies that cant lose is in anyway appealing to me.
On the other side, you are right 40k reached a level of some video game companies selling an unfinished product that needs debugging.
 
Sorry give the people enough time to get their job done instead looking for cashflow and there wouldnt be that much need of fixing after release.


I don't disagree- It's not the direction I WANT this game to have gone in. But it is, after all, a product sold and run by a commercial entity. It doesn't matter too much what crusty old narrative players like us think. They have to shift units.

As Panzer said, you do misunderstand my point. My point isn't that they're releasing something unfinished which they then have to fix later, my point is that it's intentionally rebalanced on entirely arbitrary grounds. The changes themselves are almost irrelevant, the point is that it gives the players a reason to alter their list, buy a couple new models, and gives the podcasts something to discuss.

 

I know this argument is itself hotly contested, but honestly I think it's plain to see, and GW doesn't even deny it. If they didn't continually refresh the books, the rules, the balance, the player base would decline, and more importantly so would sales. Hence why I compared it to MMORPGs- The same reason is why World of Warcraft releases a new expansion like clockwork every other year. As soon as people get used to the meta, and work out the "optimal" build for their character, they find there's nothing left to do. Nothing to work towards.

Case in point? Age of Sigmar.

(Aside: If you knew me personally you'd know I'm a giant commie and I hate most practices of big business and unrestricted capitalism in general; especially so in the videogame industry. But the difference is the videogame industry is the biggest entertainment industry on Earth. Companies like EA and Blizzard already make billions upon billions of dollars every year, so criticising their business practices is much more valid. Games Workshop, on the other hand, is tiny. Seriously tiny. Therefore, I do tend to let them off the hook a little bit, because they're the kind of company who could very realistically crash and burn if they don't do everything they can to keep money coming in.)

 

 

I still disagree.

I play non GW Tabletops, especccially after 7th was released. My point is if you watch other miniature companies, other business models work too.

Corvus Belli with its Infintiy game is the best counter point to GWs business practice.

The game isnt 100% perfect, but in terms of balance and models used is way superior than 40k today.

The main difference is simply they are not a stock corporation, dont have to please shareholders and can live with a smaller growth rate.

Look what being a stock corporation did to Boing. 



#137
Kolgrim DeathHowl

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Well good news I found a local game shop about 20 mins away, they told me to just bring what I have and come meet people and you can see how to play. Going to go one of these Fridays they do 40k stuff see how it goes. I don't have a full army painted but I figure I'll just bring what I do have and see how it goes. More about learning how to play the game and meeting new folks. Just have to make sure I got someone to watch my Grandfather around that time is my only restraint.






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