Surviving Bladestorm?

[ServoBadger]

Had my first game in a long while against Eldar and a friend of mine took a LOT of Dire Avengers, with the Craftworld trait that gives +4 range.

 

I have never been very good with my Deathwatch, I'm much more comfortable playing my Dark Eldar, but how do we survive Bladestorm?

 

Anything I put within his threat range (30-35") just... died to Shuriken fire, including a Mortis Dreadnought and a Corvus Blackstar, both in one round of shooting.

 

My return fire was relatively ineffective, not putting out enough low strength shots to counter his base 4+ save (or 3+ in cover, or even better with psychic support) and he had a 5+ invulnerable for all his Dire Avenger squads which limited the effectiveness of my more powerful guns.

 

I tried assault but other than my Terminator Watch Captain, I lost too many to overwatch (on a 5+ with exploding 6s and 6s to wound at AP-3) so I had only two Vanguard Veterans, two Bikers, and one normal Veteran left from three squads when I hit his lines. That wasn't enough and they got cut down by his Exarchs.

 

This isn't a whinge - I was only, finally, out of the game when my Watch Captain got super smitten to death before he could raze an objective in the enemy deployment zone - but I was genuinely surprised at how easily he cut me to pieces.

 

Can I ask what tactics people use against massed Dire Avengers?

[GrinNfool]

I shoot them with boltguns, is this a trick question?

 

In all seriousness though, stormbolters, a respulsor/exe, bikers, a frag if you can get it close enough, etc.  Just lots of shots should do the trick if he is basically fielding a horde Dire Avengers.  Adding some stormshields into each vet squad would help protect vs any of the 6s and a term in the squad should absorb the majority of the rest.  You are probably trying to be a bit too cute with your list is my guess.  DW aren't like the normal marines with their supplements where you can put just about anything on the table and win currently.  Same for DE, I also have them and you can run a wide variety of stuff and do well.  You do have to make sure you field good kill teams, and everything in your list is there with a purpose, 

 

Luck can also just happen too with something like shuriken spam too, which is why I would make sure your got 2-3 Storm shields in most vet squads.  Primaris would probably be ok as well since they are 2 wounds.  A mixed aggressor inceptor, auto bolt intercessors would be good too since majority t5 and 25 wounds to chew through.  You just can't afford to be too cute with DW especially vs good armies.  You can run the odd interesting off beat unit but you do need to bring a solid list to succeed with DW.

[ServoBadger]

It does sound like a trick question, doesn't it? I mean, I know Eldar infantry aren't that tough.

 

But no. My Deathwatch is all Classic Marines, and firing one Kraken or Hellfire round per marine if I'm walking into range isn't enough, and staying in cover and letting him come to me costs me too many models.

 

Still, thanks for the suggestions. I will add some Terminators next game and see if they can tank some of the incoming fire.

[GrinNfool]

It does sound like a trick question, doesn't it? I mean, I know Eldar infantry aren't that tough.

 

But no. My Deathwatch is all Classic Marines, and firing one Kraken or Hellfire round per marine if I'm walking into range isn't enough, and staying in cover and letting him come to me costs me too many models.

 

Still, thanks for the suggestions. I will add some Terminators next game and see if they can tank some of the incoming fire.

Hmm well that is part of your problem never walk anywhere w/ DW if its not a aggressor monstrosity unit.  We don't have the numbers to foot slog.  If you aren't in rapid fire range, you are almost always better off not moving and getting bolter discipline even if you aren't getting SIA, unless you can get into rapid fire range with the move when it comes to shooting t3 models (and a lot of t4 models).  If you are trying to get into a position you need to be in a vehicle or deep striking in.  Could also look at some stalker boltgun squads if you are fielding only normal vets, 5 guys can throw out 10 SIA shots w/ a base ap -1 at good range, should whittle down some units if not outright kill them.  A razorback hauling some assault cannon with some marines bringing a frag or infernus supported with a few boltgun/ss (or SB/SS) guys could help you out too.

Edited December 23, 2019 by GrinNfool

[HorrOwl]

1) Include in a kill teams several Terminators(2 , for example) and some guys with stormshields. All with stormbolters, of course.

2) Get these teams in a teleportarium

3) Deep strike, shoot, kill a lot eldar with storm bolters

4) When facing a return fire, first allocate wounds with -3 ap to your stormshield guys, then ordinary bucket of dice on terminators. 

 

If you have a terminator watch captain - give him a Beacon Angelis and place him in deepstrike too. When you will place your kill teams , set a Watch captain in the middle of their position and drag a Watch master  so your stormbolters will have a reroll and maybe a handy tactic from Tome of Ectoclades, which is obviously what the Watchmaster is carrying,

 

Also Corvus Blackstars with assault cannons, blackstar missile launchers and hurricane bolters can take out a lot of eldar infantry in a turn(especially when Watchmaster with Tome of Ectoclades nearby), but they are quite unpopular

Deathwatch don't have much trouble with Aeldari infantry regardless of numbers imho

Edited December 23, 2019 by HorrOwl

[ServoBadger]

I think the message I'm getting is I will need a lot more Storm Bolters than I currently have to make this work!

 

It's a slightly awkward situation because my friend refuses to play my Primaris Imperial Fists, so adding Primaris is really out of the question.

 

I appreciate I must appear to be a terrible player, and I probably am, but the damage 60 Dire Avengers can do at 1500 points was quite a surprise.

[RandyB]

I think the message I'm getting is I will need a lot more Storm Bolters than I currently have to make this work!

 

It's a slightly awkward situation because my friend refuses to play my Primaris Imperial Fists, so adding Primaris is really out of the question.

 

I appreciate I must appear to be a terrible player, and I probably am, but the damage 60 Dire Avengers can do at 1500 points was quite a surprise.

1. Return the favor and refuse to play his army. Intentionally or not, he's handicapping you. Go therefore and do likewise.

 

2. Get a new friend and ditch the old one. :)

 

Sometimes, we need to "git gud". And sometimes, we need to call out behavior up with which we will not put.

[ServoBadger]

I'd rather buy a load of Storm Bolters, I've known the guy for 20 years and he's a good friend. Just with strong views on what's broken!

 

Thanks for all the advice.

[Black Knight]

He maybe a good friend but he is being a jerk if he is allowing you to field sub par units to his personally tailored list. Primaris DW are not broken in the slightest, in fact they are pretty balanced trading decreased output for survivability. DW Primaris haven't had the Space Marine treatment yet. Ask to take a squad then increase that number again in the second match. He will see that they are not OP.

 

I would never want to play a game when I know I won because I handicapped the other player, if they want to experiment that's great but I want to win because I got gud.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Black_Knight

[Prot]

DW have some really good advantages against infantry based armies in my opinion.

 

The trick is getting him out of Wave Serpents. No one likes shooting wave serpents. But your Stormbolter Vets are the perfect solution. 

 

Primaris DW are still some of my favourite units. They get bashed a lot  from competitive players, but having 1-2 squads in reserves can be a nightmare to deal with for infantry based armies. 

 

Just as an example... most of my armies struggle against strong Genestealer Cult armies, but my DW are so good at slicing up infantry on my terms, it's very hard to out maneuver them. 

[GrinNfool]

Not everyone finds long time friends replaceable.

 

On Topic: Ya just your bulk fire weapons, assault cannons on a razorback, SBs, stalker boltguns etc, all of those are open to normal vets, the trick is making sure you get to use them which you should be able to accomplish via deployment options. Like i said too it can often be better to just not move and get double tap then move and get 1 shot of SIA.

 

+++ please refrain from calling people socially inept in the future. Thank you. Prot+++

Edited December 24, 2019 by Prot

[Black Knight]

Friendship works both ways, if you cannot bring up small problems that effect your enjoyment of the very thing you wish to enjoy with said friend what is the point? If just asking to bring a squad of Primaris to a game causes them to have problems rather than discussing it with you, you have larger problems, especially when Terminators and Storm Shields are going to be far more annoying than anything normal Space Marines can bring. Will they then become a no bring because they don't like them? When does it end? So how about not being so aggressive GrinNfool? I am offering my gaming advice when I say you are going to be hard put to compete if both hands are welded to your back as you play.

 

Taking Shields and Terminators will definitely help out but also keep to cover until you are close to them. Use our 2/4 teleports to get in close/to objectives fast so that you can bunker down.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Black_Knight

[ServoBadger]

Brothers, please, peace. I shouldn't have mentioned my reasons for not fielding Primaris in this army, it's a lesson to me to keep my posts focused on the armies themselves.

 

Again, thanks for your advice. I've located a number of Terminator Storm Bolters in my bits box that will go some way to remedying my firepower deficit, and I'll keep more of my army off the table to avoid getting shot in the first place.

 

With that in mind, do you feel that drop pods have a place in a Deathwatch army?

[GrinNfool]

Friendship works both ways, if you cannot bring up small problems that effect your enjoyment of the very thing you wish to enjoy with said friend what is the point? If just asking to bring a squad of Primaris to a game causes them to have problems rather than discussing it with you, you have larger problems, especially when Terminators and Storm Shields are going to be far more annoying than anything normal Space Marines can bring. Will they then become a no bring because they don't like them? When does it end? So how about not being so aggressive GrinNfool? I am offering my gaming advice when I say you are going to be hard put to compete if both hands are welded to your back as you play.

 

Taking Shields and Terminators will definitely help out but also keep to cover until you are close to them. Use our 2/4 teleports to get in close/to objectives fast so that you can bunker down.

I have read and re-read my post... I don't see anything "aggressive" in it, I didn't even call out any one specific.  I am sorry you read it that way, but that was not the intent, I was simply pointing out he wasn't looking for friendship advice, and these forums, for obvious reasons, aren't the place to seek it.  This hobby has a tendency to be weirdly exclusionary to people who make a minor faux pas, I've seen it happen to many people.  You would think a hobby such as this would be much more accepting of people, but it is sadly not the case often times.  Have seen many people happily turn their back on a player because they don't 100% see eye to eye.  As someone who runs a group this leaves me to try to pick up the pieces and repair the damage.  This hobby would just be a lot better if people would accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with them about what makes a good game.  I am done talking about this subject though as further discussion would only further derail this thread, when my initial posts intention was to focus on the request for aid, and not on his friendship.

 

Back on topic:  Drop pods are... kind of a mixed bag, you can probably run 1 or 2 and it be ok, but they are still an expense of points DW can often  spend better elsewhere.  I would suggest using the strategem to drop 1-2 groups, if you want to DS.  The drop pod doesn't allow for mixed squads meaning you could only run vets in them, similiar to a rhino/razorback.  The best use where it comes to drop pods is vs assault armies, as the doors count as part of the vehicle, and enemies have to run around them.  However they don't block LoS so you can shoot over them.  This is honestly a bit of a silly rule, but until they faq it (been this way for over a year) its just how they function.  You can also include a jump lib/capt/chap etc with an angelis beacon to improve your maneuverability.  This would let you teleport a squad thats on the table upfield into rapid fire range generally even turn 1 as with the jump pack movement +advance + 6" bubble of angelis you can probably get in a good shooting position.  Could even leave the squad out of LoS so they don't get shot at.

[Black Knight]

Don't apologise ThatRedOne, we cannot effectively offer advice if we don't know the general situation. You're not the first to have opponents that need some special handling. If I recall even a mod or two of this section have had problems fielding their Knight armies because people refused to play against them. As long as you know that you need to bring your A game with the restrictions you have placed on yourself.

 

I wrote this next bit before I read GrinNfools reply and its pretty much the same so what he said :)

 

For you I think drop pods are not going to be very effective as you cannot put Terminators in them, so you are going to loose that lovely 2+ armour save and one of the few things that can help you with your current issue. Now if you want to fill them up with normal vets with Stormbolters and Frag cannons they can be dropped 9" out for a lovely alpha-strike but unless you make that charge afterwards they will be killed in one turn. It was this very reason that this Killteam fell out of favour slowly when it became a thing as people realised that the fire and forget hardly ever earned back its points before it was wiped from the board.

 

It is usually better to kit up the kill team with a terminator or two, a Vanguard Vet for disengaging out of close combat and having them camp objectives. If you really need to get them across the table at the start it would probably be better to teleport them in via our stratagem or maybe use the Beacon to place them next to a HQ.

 

And finally the best thing any DW player can tell people having problems with surviving is "Boys before toys". Try to get as many Vets as possible before spending points on special units or expensive weapons so that the loss of a model isn't nearly as game ending.

 

I never suggested abandoning any player GrinNfool but I do always champion talking to the people you play with about anything that you have a problem with, otherwise that person will probably never know what they are doing or even suggesting is causing problems. I've seen sidestepping of issue that ends up with talking behind hushed tones that eventually does more damage than simply talking about it in the first place.