Fierce Bear Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Following Brother Chaplain Elijah's initiative, I wondered what strategies, tactics and approaches other Brother of the Lion were employing? The Thousand Sons have developed into something of a nemesis for my own DA (to be fair my RL friend is a very good wargamer?). So my main struggles (pre-doctrines at time of writing) are: Bolters Vs All is dust, all the inferno -2 weapons, and of course smite spam!!! I have regularly called upon the Assassinorium deploying Culexus'and Vindicaires to nullify Ahriman and his scorcerous cohort but have only managed a single win in 12 months of campaigning!!! Approximate list I face at 2k below: ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [128 PL, 2,006pts] ++ + HQ + Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 166pts]: Boon of Mutation, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Doombolt, Gift of Chaos, Glamour of Tzeentch, Infernal Gaze, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime, Weaver of Fates Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [8 PL, 156pts]: Malefic talon, Prescience, Warptime Exalted Sorcerer [7 PL, 120pts]: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 111pts]: Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter + Troops + Rubric Marines [14 PL, 183pts]: Icon of Flame . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol . 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun . Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon Tzaangors [7 PL, 88pts] . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades . 10x Tzaangor w/ autopistol and chainsword Tzaangors [7 PL, 88pts] . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades . 10x Tzaangor w/ autopistol and chainsword + Elites + Helbrute [7 PL, 111pts]: Twin heavy bolter . Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer Scarab Occult Terminators [11 PL, 191pts]: Hellfyre Missile Rack . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Combi-bolter . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno Combi-bolter, 3x Powersword . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power sword, Soulreaper cannon Scarab Occult Terminators [11 PL, 191pts]: Hellfyre Missile Rack . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Combi-bolter . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno Combi-bolter, 3x Powersword . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power sword, Soulreaper cannon + Heavy Support + Chaos Predator [9 PL, 181pts]: Havoc launcher, Twin lascannon . Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon Defiler [11 PL, 158pts]: Reaper autocannon, Twin heavy flamer Maulerfiend [9 PL, 122pts]: Lasher tendrils + Flyer + Heldrake [10 PL, 140pts]: Baleflamer ++ Total: [128 PL, 2,006pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel of Solitude Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 First thing I’d say about smite spam is that they have to target the closest visible unit. A good way to deal with it is to always have a sacrificial screen in the way. A vehicle like a Rhino would be a good start. The Rubrics only have a 24” range and 5” movement, so if you keep forcing a move, then you’ll reduce their effectiveness. The Daemon Prince loves charging into stuff, so again if you put up a screen for him to charge into, then you can fall back and just shoot him off the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 dont try to out magic thousand sons, they have magnus and ahriman, thats asking for trouble. culexis assassin would be an ideal ally as he basically is designed for smashing up guys like ahriman, shoot the tzaangors and demons apart if you can, dont stab them to death your asking for trouble, we dont have a tool for that purpose in our arsenal like a shield captain general, or a knight paladin. since we are on the topic being in the giant stompy murder robot fanclub will pay big dividends here, turns out magnus hates fighting things in Close combat when he himself isnt the biggest bully in the fight. the dark angels if they want to melee stuff should stick to the thousand sons proper, scarab occults suck in melee and rubrics do too, when pressed to melee they will fold like wet paper. dark talons are useful for clearing tzaangors, and hellblasters or even terminators can handle the rest in relatively short order. magnus is the elephant in the room, we have no answer to lord magnus at this time, if he shows up, he will murder you and might even single handedly wipe your army like hes done to mine.. twice. there is no purpose to fighting him, if you can manage to horribly cripple him just playing the objective and staying alive may proove a better strategy then stand up fighting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 @Angel... Damn I hadn't thought of a rhino! That would do a lovely job of soaking up some smites!!! @aura, so I was running 2 Culexus'... The initial response was a 10-man Warp Flamer Rubric unit, now I just have to have the Assassin dance around those big units of Tzaangors! I do have two Redemptor Dreads (not quite titans but do distract sufficiently and 3 damage per punch ain't bad) which I find excellent value for the points but i do tend to loose one in the first turn to the Mauler-'murderball-fiend! Plasma is the answer at the moment over close combat, occult might fold but bolter drill makes them effective, I've been relying on Tacticals with plasma and a combi plasma, which 2 squads deployed by drop pod could also soak up those smites with smart positioning a la the rhino... Hellblasters can do the job but they get focused fired too... Love running ten but it's keeping them on the board! Great suggestions gents, I'll add 'Vindicaring' Ahriman is a go to as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuralshock Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If you were building to counter this specific list you could consider the Landspeeder vengeance or 5 considering it's flat 2 damage from the word go and you can keep it out of range. Sammy and Talonmaster can stump out enough shots to chew through 3+ saves. Also considering playing the mission, unless your mission is just kill points, which is just rolling dice IMO and DA isn't a book that does that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Hey Neuralshock, I haven't run a Vengence speeder before, I had read they were underwhelming? Certainly need a viable way to overcharge? Any tips appreciated? I like the idea of a plasma speeder bus but doesn't seem punchy enough... Prefer that version of the model to the Darkshroud though. You would be stunned at how few Rubric get killed by assault cannons and 'Never Bolters' aren't much better, it's the saves where it falls down (-1 ap Vs all is dust +1 ap) if the Rubric are in cover - ok the Talonmaster negates that - that's back to a 3+ with a +1 to the dice roll... sure you might get the odd 1 but then those -2 ap bolters fire back! In close combat they can do a job unless the rubric all run those -2ap warpflamers. I think combat doctrines will really help to be honest, I think Sammy and the TM starting turn 1 with -2 ap weapons will do enough to make the kill ratio better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 What I have always felt that sucks about the Landspeeder Vengeance is that D6 Shots, thing. I really dislike the DX number of shots thing, overall, but the D6 most of all. The spread is just too much. If the speeder was atleast 2D3, that would make it worth the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Wow I didn't see they were now only 100/112 points (LS Vengence) after CA2019. But that swing D6 shots, your not going to put WOTDA on that are you... 2d3 would be better.. odd that the model has to cannons and it only rolls... Odd too that although a 1 on an over charge doesn't take the model out, that it basically cripples the battery... it's an oddly super up Dual Plasma Cannon... Hmm I do think those Ravenwing speeder chassis look rather 'under-gunned'... Wonder if we can get Cawl to pump them a little... Y'know under strict supervision by Asamodai... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuralshock Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yeah the LSV @ 100 pts makes taking two look more appealing. And you don't even really need to overcharge the platform unless you're going for beeeg 4 damage plasma. Also rubrics in cover would only take 3+ saves because the +/-1 would cancel out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yeah the LSV @ 100 pts makes taking two look more appealing. And you don't even really need to overcharge the platform unless you're going for beeeg 4 damage plasma. Also rubrics in cover would only take 3+ saves because the +/-1 would cancel out And X2 makes d6 roll better somehow right!?!! Two models is punchy but at those points do able.. With the Thousand Sons you just want to get them down to the invuln save! LSV could hurt Daemon engines though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I insist that the issue with the LSV is not the cost. Its the D6 shots and its weird overheat downside. Maybe it if was around 70~80 points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 I would like to see those issues you mention solved at 100 points in needs a little more damage output I think. I mean it's not 13-25 points better than a LS typhoon with a multi melta is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 It should be 2D3 shots, and overheating should just cause 1 mortal wound. At 100 points, that vehicle would be pretty decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 It should be 2D3 shots, and overheating should just cause 1 mortal wound. At 100 points, that vehicle would be pretty decent. 2d3 would be consistent with two souped up plasma cannons right? I'm often fascinated by these decisions on the game mechanics... [inside gee dub HQ] "2d3... Nah a 1d6 will make the LSV feel different right?!"... =D 3 mortals is a little harsh, again imagine you over charged and rolled 1 shot and a hot roll of 1! Would be nice to have that 2+ damage plasma to hit Thousand Sons monsters and psykers with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Elijah Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Looking at his list i think you should run as much lascannons and plasma as possible in a MSU gunline that avoid getting close (because of his Mortal Wounds spam). Units i would suggest : Contemptor with Quad Lascannons = 168pts hit on 2+ with Grim Resolve means you have good chances to one shot a vehicle each turn 2 Veterans with Combi Plasma & Plasma Cannon = 55pts that force him to split his fire to get ride of them, they can be a real annoyance Aggressors with Boltstorm = 110pts to cover your gunline against Deep Striking terminators or double moving HellDrake, they bring a lot of saturation Vindicator = Heavy 1D6 S10 AP-3 Dmg1D6 for 125pts, eventually use a reroll on the number of shoots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Elijah Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Maybe not related to TS but while scrolling through Battlescribe i was thinking about this : Storm Raven of Doom (316pts) T7 14W > 2 Hurricane Bolters (24 shoots at 12'') > Twin Heavy Plasma Cannons (2D3 Plasma shoots not killing the model on 1's) > 2 Stormstrike Missile Launchers (2 S8 AP-3 Dmg3) > Typhoon Missile Launcher (2D6 S4 or 2 S8 AP-2 DmgD6) After PA4 the SR will get Grim Resolve and can use it when Hovering + also additionnal AP from Devastator Doctrine. On his own it's mean but what make it interesting is his transport ability (12 Marines + 1 Dreadnought) so you could move around 2 squads of Grav Devastators + Storm Cannons Leviathan + Lieutenant (reroll 1's to Wound) to obliterate anything at 24''. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8Keeper Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I believe you can't taansport a leviathan in a storm raven. Wasn't it dreads below 10 wounds or something?? It's certainly something I want to try, maybe spring it on one of my mates in a casual game and have them on the end of a nasty surprise for once. Chaplain Elijah 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Elijah Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I believe you can't taansport a leviathan in a storm raven. Wasn't it dreads below 10 wounds or something?? It's certainly something I want to try, maybe spring it on one of my mates in a casual game and have them on the end of a nasty surprise for once. Ah yes you're right it has been faq'ed : Q: Can a Stormraven Gunship transport a Relic Deredeo Dreadnought or a Relic Leviathan Dreadnought? A: No. For the purposes of determining what Dreadnoughts a Stormraven Gunship can transport, compare the Wounds characteristic of the model to that of a Redemptor Dreadnought (13): a Stormraven Gunship cannot transport a Dreadnought that has a Wounds characteristic equal to or higher than this. Well, back to a Mortis Contemptor then. G8Keeper 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8Keeper Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I'm waiting for PA:4 to decode what I buy next. Mortis Contemptor(s) are definitely in the list for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Elijah Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I'm waiting for PA:4 to decode what I buy next. Mortis Contemptor(s) are definitely in the list for me too. Regardless of what happen with PA4 the Contemptor is already a great model, was my MVP in most games i've played it Back on topic it seems Fierce Bear has some problem with character spam so i was wondering if (yeah i know it's Primaris...) Eliminators could do the trick to eliminate these Sorcerers ? G8Keeper 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 I have had my Vindicaire pop the head off Ahriman like Deadpool in an SUV, so tend to screen him with some scout snipers for good measure. I have a squad of 3 Eliminators but I think it might take 6 to be effective? Anyone can let know there experiences that would be handy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel of Solitude Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 By all accounts, Eliminators are effective when taken in multiples - so two squads are to be recommended. I wonder also if a Master in Phobos Armour might help - their *takes deep breath* Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine has a S4 AP-2 3D profile, and can target characters. You can also deep strike deny (useful for Tzaangor bombs) and forward deploy like scouts. Another option is a Dark Talon or two - zoom them up field to see if you can exploit any gaps and get yourself nearer to their characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I've taken to using 2 squads of Eliminators they have the no line of sight shot, I feel thier a solid choice in all lists Couple of squads of infiltrators gives a DS free bubble of 12 instead of 9 again I'm finding that there invaluable at zoning out Also Ezekiel has 2 denies and I've started using coteaz again bumping him to 2 denies 3 powers for 200 points your getting a lot of psychic defense/offense again an all round choice rather than being anti 1000 son worth a punt tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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