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Chaos use of STC's


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#1
Aeternus

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Just a quick check before I start putting together some fluff/technical specifications for parts of a new force.

 

Does anyone know if chaos forgeworlds or the dark mechanicus still use (or would be able to use) STC's to create things? Of course we know about them being corrupted by chaos etc etc, but would they still be used to some extent to forge new arms and armour, and from there be altered without the loyalist mechanicum's fear of innovation?

 

Cheers in advance :) 


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#2
RolandTHTG

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Yep. At the base, a STC is just blueprints and technical drawings. You still need those to make basic interchangeable parts, the "Fallen Future" aspect is just that the mechanicus started worshiping them as holy relics. 


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#3
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Indeed, Chaos would be interested in STCs as much as Imperials for the bounty of technology within. It depends on who finds it as to what sort of use it gets, not everyone will be interested in corrupting it so it's up to you how you want to work with it :) It could be a nice story angle to work on too, as other Chaos warbands would want it or access to it as it'd be powerful asset to whoever holds it. Or maybe the Imperium hears of the STC, and wants to recover it before it gets corrupted?


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#4
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How righteous would it be if CSM rediscovered the STC for drop pods? Or storm shields? ;)


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#5
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Wonderful, thanks all!


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#6
MasterDeath

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Would they use STC? Definately, Rhinos are based upon STCs for example

 

Would they be able to? Yes, again. STCs are more than just blueprints. They can be used by anyone, even without proper technical training, and with all materials at hand. So even a stone age population would be able to use one if they stumble upon it.

 

Would they be corrupted? Yes, a third time. Chaos corrupts, thats one of the "dont reroll a reroll"-like rules of 40K. Although a Dark Mechanicum member would only "improve" upon the STC. In the end, this alterations could have no visible effect on the STC's product, but somehow it would be odd. Like people have a higher tendency towards aggression while using a combat knife (remember that even the standard Astartes Combat Knife is STC based) thats altered by a Khornate Mechanicum. Or that the munition created has a higher tendency to leave behind festering wounds.

 

In the end: Do whatever you want. Its your story.


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#7
Closet Skeleton

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Chaos warbands are raiders, they don't manufacture stuff if they can just take it. The Dark Mechanicum make stuff but they don't hand stuff out for free. STC vehicles like Rhinos and Predators are more likely to be stolen from Imperial manufacture while the daemon engines will be purchased directly from the Dark Mechanicum or taken from defeated rival warbands.

 

STC exists as a concept to explain how a limited model range can represent a supposedly diverse galaxy. If you want a chaos warband with custom vehicles you don't want Sandard Template Constructs, you want non-standard ones. Which chaos would and often do so since daemon engines aren't STC at all.

 

Yep. At the base, a STC is just blueprints and technical drawings. You still need those to make basic interchangeable parts, the "Fallen Future" aspect is just that the mechanicus started worshiping them as holy relics. 

 

This thread is getting confused.

 

An Standard Template Construct is what the term implies, a object constructed to a standardized template.

 

A Standard Template Construct System is a ancient AI from the Dark Age of Technology that designs things to fit a human's requests. By the late part of the Dark Age of Technology the STC systems were worn out and in poor states of repair from millenia of use, then the Age of Strife put them through another bunch of millenia of abuse so that none of them survived in proper working order into the Age of the Imperium.

 

A chaos corrupted Standard Template Constructor factory appears in First and Only but it only makes killer robots so its not a fully functioning STC system.

 

STC data is blueprints and other designs created by an STC system for use by human colonists in factories and workshops. These survive in the 41st millenium only in incomplete form or in copies of copies rather than original STC system print outs. The admech design craft by piecing together fragments of STC data, no Imperium vehicle is created directly from STC data, even the rhino which was so common there's lots of fairly complete STC data on it has variations depending on the forgeworld that makes it. One source that I've never actually seen properly cited supposedly claims that the Leman Russ was actually based on STC data for an agricultural tractor, so the battle tank parts were all added by the admech.

 

 

Would they be able to? Yes, again. STCs are more than just blueprints. They can be used by anyone, even without proper technical training, and with all materials at hand. So even a stone age population would be able to use one if they stumble upon it.

 

STC data is just building instructions, they're as easy to use as possible for instructions to be but if you're highest technical expertise is in flint napping and animal hide curing then you're not going to be able to make any use out of it unless you're already in a mostly automated factory that just needs a few buttons to be pressed.

 

How righteous would it be if CSM rediscovered the STC for drop pods? Or storm shields? msn-wink.gif

 

Chaos have drop pods. They just can't use them on the table top for model kit reasons.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 05 January 2020 - 10:28 AM.

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#8
Lord_Caerolion

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One of the benefits of the STC System was that it was able to modify its output to match the requirements and capabilities of the local populace, so theoretically a Stone-Age era user would receive instructions that don't require anything more technical than stone, wood, rope, and maybe leather. 


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#9
Closet Skeleton

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One of the benefits of the STC System was that it was able to modify its output to match the requirements and capabilities of the local populace, so theoretically a Stone-Age era user would receive instructions that don't require anything more technical than stone, wood, rope, and maybe leather. 

 

STC systems weren't intended for stone-age tribesmen, they were intended for colonists from a high tech civilization who might not be able to be picky about the natural resources and infrastructure around them.

Yes, an STC system could produce designs that a stone age tribe could make use of, but that would involve either gradually uplifting them to a non-stone age level of technology or be limited to RotJ Ewok style stuff.


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#10
Lord_Caerolion

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Never said they were. It remains fact though that the STC System was designed to take the capabilities, both technological and environmental, of the user into account. They inherently improve the technological level of the recipient, they'll lift a feudal world out of the Bronze/Iron Age by developing manufacturing technology too.


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#11
Juggernut

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Gonna have to agree to disagree here on “justifying” the lack of options on the tabletop for chaos. Bad design, IMO. I am amused constantly by the competing desires for the company to sell product and placing these arbitrary restrictions as if they are REALLY all about game balance or fluff representation on the tabletop. Not really an argument worth having, but there’s no convincing me on this.
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#12
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Gonna have to agree to disagree here on “justifying” the lack of options on the tabletop for chaos. Bad design, IMO. I am amused constantly by the competing desires for the company to sell product and placing these arbitrary restrictions as if they are REALLY all about game balance or fluff representation on the tabletop. Not really an argument worth having, but there’s no convincing me on this.


I just justify it to myself as game balance. We get cool things like demon engines that they don't have a direct equivalent to, so it'd be weird for us to get spiky versions of all of their stuff and also get unique things.

#13
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More organized Legions and perhaps Renegade Marines like Red Corsairs would most likely have access to STC machines. Obviously Dark Mechanicum would have their own, but where lore breaks from game mechanics is that they would also probably be a lot more technologically advanced than their Loyalist counterparts. Remember, Hereteks have little to no moral limits on what they may experiment with. So there are Hereteks reverse engineering Xeno technology, creating (or attempting to create) Abominable Intelligence, and the obvious Daemon-forged technology.

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#14
MasterDeath

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 Edit: After another reading, yes this thread is confusing as closet said. Disregard my post.

 

I still stand to my main point: Its your Story.


Edited by MasterDeath, 07 January 2020 - 09:07 PM.


#15
Closet Skeleton

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Gonna have to agree to disagree here on “justifying” the lack of options on the tabletop for chaos. Bad design, IMO. I am amused constantly by the competing desires for the company to sell product and placing these arbitrary restrictions as if they are REALLY all about game balance or fluff representation on the tabletop. Not really an argument worth having, but there’s no convincing me on this.

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say, you said Chaos should find STC data for drop prods, I said there's no need to because the chaos lack of drop pods is arbitrary and has no fluff justification.

 

I personally don't like the loyalist drop pod rules because I think they should be a scenario thing not an army list thing but have no objection what so ever to chaos getting access to stuff that loyalists have.

 

 

More organized Legions and perhaps Renegade Marines like Red Corsairs would most likely have access to STC machines.

 

What do you mean 'STC machines', rhinos are STC machinery and everyone knows that chaos has those. Chaos don't have STC Systems because no one does and being chaos doesn't give them the power to recreate them and makes any desire for them to do so unlikely because why would chaos of all things seek to 'standardize templates'.

 

The Dark Mechanicum have hereteks and can build what they want, but that means they don't have to care about STCs not that they should have some capability regarding them that the loyalist mechanicum doesn't. They'll have AIs, probably daemonically possessed ones, but while the loyalists desire to find and recreate old technologies from STC data their chaos cousins would seek to do the opposite. If a DM Heretek found a perfect set of STC designs for some super weapon his heretekness would make him want to corrupt and pervert the design over trying to perfectly follow the instructions.

 

If a chaos tech adept found a partially working or restorable STC system then he might try to make use of it, but it would probably involve summoning a daemon into it or jury rigging it with spikes. He might very well then be able to produce new unseen before daemonic weapons but they wouldn't be standardized or the works of a sane methodical optimization. Similarly a chaos tech adept might be inspired by the legends of STC derived technology to create his on AI lab assistant to help him come up with designs but would almost certainly end up with a something more like a cryptic daemonic oracle than a helpful AI.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 08 January 2020 - 10:39 AM.


#16
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Legions would have their own means of creating STC technology, they wouldn't rely on the Mechanicum as the Loyalists do is what I meant. Semantics.

There's actually a HelForge that worships an STC System (yes, an actual System... entities do actually have them), Crucible-Omega.

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#17
techsoldaten

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Forgive me if I'm getting the details of the lore wrong, but my understanding was that STCs are kind of like the Grail.

 

A complete, functional STC gives knowledge of how to create incredibly powerful, forgotten weapons from previous ages which would give an insurmountable advantage to anyone capable of wielding them. This includes Abominable Intelligence, Men of Iron, the whole bit. The Imperium and Chaos are locked in a neverending quest to obtain one, but they're incredibly rare and almost always defective.

 

I know the lore claimed STCs traveled along with human settlers during the Age of Technology and were lost during the Age of Strife. They're credited as the reason mankind was able to expand into a galactic power.

 

To answer the OPs original question, Chaos Legions / Dark Mechanicum probably do not have a complete STC system. Armed with this knowledge, they would have crushed the Imperium a long time ago.

 

But, you know, it's Chaos - having something doesn't mean using it or sharing with others. A Chaos Lord could have returned to the Eye of Terror with one intact, found himself beset by his Battle Brothers, and the STC ended up as trophy for a World Eater who's skull fetish overwhelms his desire for true conquest. Or there could be a pile of them sitting around on the Plague Planet because Nurgle is all about entropy.

 

As for a Chapter having their own, remember STCs don't build things, they contain knowledge. I'm not sure if a warband would have much interest in toting one around, it's more something for bargaining. The Dark Mechanicus would have lots of uses for one, and they would inevitably fuse it's information with whatever they've learned about Daemons to produce something truly horrific.



#18
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Like I said, take a look into the lore of Crucible-Omega. They do have a functional STC System, they were never discovered by the Imperium during the Great Crusade, and the Forge has fallen to Chaos. This was in Imperial Armour 13.

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#19
MegaVolt87

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I don't see CSM messing with a base STC blueprint if they had them, they would just make copies and mess with those instead. Would make more sense to trade copies of OG ones, different varient copies etc. Remember not every CSM Fogre would be a demon forge. Thats a good way to ruin OG legion tech, making demonic constructs in the same forge. Such OG technology would be heavily warded as not to ruin it. Tired of the all OG tech trash/ rare because chaos memes.
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#20
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If your STC is in the Eye, you have no choice - it will be corrupted because that's what Chaos does. Whether you want it to happen or not is immaterial, and that's why our Sicarans regain wounds when they grind enemies under their tracks.

Edited by Iron Father Ferrum, 15 January 2020 - 01:23 PM.

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#21
DuskRaider

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If your STC is in the Eye, you have no choice - it will be corrupted because that's what Chaos does. Whether you want it to happen or not is immaterial, and that's why our Sicarans are better and a lot cooler.


Fixed that for you.

Edited by DuskRaider, 15 January 2020 - 01:24 PM.

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#22
MegaVolt87

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If your STC is in the Eye, you have no choice - it will be corrupted because that's what Chaos does. Whether you want it to happen or not is immaterial, and that's why our Sicarans regain wounds when they grind enemies under their tracks.

 

Except there are a lot of chaos holdings in real space that are not demon worlds. Actually more now in new lore, wasn't as common in old lore, still happened though. Legion forces making bases in realspace post Cadia is definitely a thing. Plus there has been legion tech + geneseed found on space hulks un-corrupted, so just being in EoT is NOT always automatically trashing things, more so if commanders order its preservation. You don't have to be GK or Imperial church to ward off warp taint. 


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#23
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Any bases that exist in real-space are most likely quite recently established, bringing their existing Chaos-corrupted Magi/hereteks/Warpsmiths to do the construction. As for getting stuff off space hulks, yeah it happens, but it's supposed to be incredibly rare. It's not like space hulks are common things that warbands can just pop down to do a quick resupply on. 

 

"OG tech trash/rare" isn't "because Chaos", but because to the Legion remnants they have spent 10,000 years literally living in hell. If they are faced with a choice to take tainted gear or wait to get some OG tech, you take the tainted stuff, because the alternative may never come. They have no ready supply lines, only a patchwork of alliances with other warbands and Dark Mechanicum outposts that they need to beg, barter, and steal just to stay friendly with, never mind actually getting weapons and armour from. Previous allies could have been approached by a stronger warband since your last visit, and now they're no longer willing to trade, or are even outright hostile ("Sorry, this is an Emperors Children-aligned base now, you World Eaters have to die, or our new masters will make us pay").


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#24
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Any bases that exist in real-space are most likely quite recently established, bringing their existing Chaos-corrupted Magi/hereteks/Warpsmiths to do the construction. As for getting stuff off space hulks, yeah it happens, but it's supposed to be incredibly rare. It's not like space hulks are common things that warbands can just pop down to do a quick resupply on. 

 

"OG tech trash/rare" isn't "because Chaos", but because to the Legion remnants they have spent 10,000 years literally living in hell. If they are faced with a choice to take tainted gear or wait to get some OG tech, you take the tainted stuff, because the alternative may never come. They have no ready supply lines, only a patchwork of alliances with other warbands and Dark Mechanicum outposts that they need to beg, barter, and steal just to stay friendly with, never mind actually getting weapons and armour from. Previous allies could have been approached by a stronger warband since your last visit, and now they're no longer willing to trade, or are even outright hostile ("Sorry, this is an Emperors Children-aligned base now, you World Eaters have to die, or our new masters will make us pay").

 

I get what you mean, I guess I wasn't as clear. I was saying it's possible to preserve the STC plans themselves. Sure you can mess with them, but can mess with the COPIED plans, without messing with the originals, thus losing them. Sure you can do a bodge job if you have limited capacity + resources, but when you get back into real space again, you can set up conventional production again. Just because you are dark mech/ heretek doesn't mean you can't do things the old way anymore or they forget. That's like saying Fabius can't make traditional legionaries if he has regular geneseed, only abominations and his "new men". Of course he can, he would just be bored doing it. There haven't been this many CSM in real space since the HH/ Scouring in new lore, so a return to more conventional legion tech is also a logical extension as a result, along with expanded recruitment etc. 


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#25
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Some might forget, some might simply become convinced that the new variants are inherently superior, so they have no need to make the close-minded trinkets of the past.

 

I mean, they certainly can do what you say, I just think it'd be much less common an occurrence.


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