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Current State of Chaos?


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#1
Wayniac

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Been away a while due to RL and I remembered that I bought a bunch of Chaos stuff when Vigilus Ablaze dropped.  Since then I've heard of minor buffs (although new marines are busted I hear) for Chaos and it has me tempted again.  I also painted my Abaddon who I forgot I had and finishing him got me thinking as well.

 

What's the current status?  Is it still cultists or red corsairs to game CP?  I was going to do Black Legion before, or maybe Iron Warriors (love them both).  Have things been toned down any with hodgepodge soup army lists?


- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#2
WarriorFish

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Welcome back smile.png In short could be better, could be worse. Though you can say that about most things more or less tongue.png CA2019 is particularly nice with some decent point changes and the PA stuff is delivering some character as well as buffs - but this is not a full solution. This can only really come with the next round of codex updates whenever that may be.

 

With Cultists and CSM down in points you can farm CP more easily if that's what you need, generally speaking you can sum it up as more or less the same as before albeit cheaper with PA Warlord and Relic additions to taste. There's a topic on fighting new Marines here that will be a good read if you're thinking about how you face them. This one covers CA2019's point changes. Both will be good to catch up thumbsup.gif

 

So you may have a tough fight against the new Marines as they benefit from being recently out the door and GW showering new toys on them, but otherwise you'll have pretty decent games against others smile.png It's the old codex creep essentially, though we've yet to see how it plays out as it has only just started so it's possible that future updates will be levelling playing fields rather than remaking them. We'll all need to wait to be convinced of that I have no doubt!

 

The game truly rests on your opponents, as always. If someone wants to play a Beard-9000 list that flicks you off the board so nobody has any fun that's not a new development in 8th... You can have decent games against C:SM, though even without the latest and greatest they'll still be strong overall as it's a good set of rules. That said, you can substitute "C:SM" with other codices in previous editions too. Nothing new under the sun as the saying goes laugh.png

 

Ultimately it's your hobby. If you want to get your Chaos out again that sounds like all the justification you need to me msn-wink.gif Feels like we're a way off the next codex release, whoever that will be for, so plenty of time to get your CSM battle ready then? :P


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#3
Marshal Loss

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Welcome back mate.

 

Faith & Fury gave the Legions contained within (Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, World Eaters) a significant boost roughly equivalent in size to what the Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze, going so far as to actually buff some units that have never seen play (Warp Talons!) into competitive viability. CA2019 cut prices across the board on CSM units as well. We ended the year far, far better than we started it. Loyalist marines are still absurd but F&F + CA reduced the gaping chasm between loyalists & traitors to more of an irritating trip-hazard; they're still the best army by a country mile but at least we have some teeth of our own now. None of the fundamental issues with our army have been addressed, and all of these band-aids are things we have to pay for - as is par for the course with GW - but F&F is easily the best update we've had since the late 2016 7th edition TL supplement and it's a testament to how much fun the book is that virtually every Legion is beginning to see some play.

 

It's worth a look at the F&F material (e.g. here) to see what leaps out to you in case it gets the inspiration flowing. The Iron Warriors got some great stuff.


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#4
Prot

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Short version is: Black Legion nothing changed rules wise since Vigilus aside from everyone has Shock/Dreadful Assault and Bolter discipline. But for 'rules' you're looking at Vigilus Ablaze.

 

CA major breakdowns hit a lot of my favourite units that never really worked competitively but might have a slight advantage now. 

 

Post Vigilus rules in Psychic Awakening have given your Iron Warriors some fantastic stuff. Especially if you love Oblits.


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#5
Wayniac

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Short version is: Black Legion nothing changed rules wise since Vigilus aside from everyone has Shock/Dreadful Assault and Bolter discipline. But for 'rules' you're looking at Vigilus Ablaze.

 

CA major breakdowns hit a lot of my favourite units that never really worked competitively but might have a slight advantage now. 

 

Post Vigilus rules in Psychic Awakening have given your Iron Warriors some fantastic stuff. Especially if you love Oblits.

I do, the new models are great.  Hmm now I need to decide which to throw my lot in, since I really enjoy both and don't care for mixing and matching legions.


- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#6
WarriorFish

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Since you've worked on Abaddon seems you might have already made your decision?

 

There's always the option of doing both separately... ;)


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#7
Wayniac

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Since you've worked on Abaddon seems you might have already made your decision?

 

There's always the option of doing both separately... msn-wink.gif

LOL I did consider doing the heavy stuff (havocs, daemon engines, lord disco) as IW.  But yeah originally it was Black Legion (hence why I bought Abaddon) but I mean... I have written a poem for the Iron Warriors (that was a weird time haha) and I do use the Unbreakable Litany as a sort of meditation when I'm stressed out at work.  So a tough decision still smile.png

 

Sometimes I hate enjoying multiple things :P 


Edited by Wayniac, 06 January 2020 - 02:23 PM.

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- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#8
WarriorFish

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Wayniac the Indecisive indeed :P If you're really stuck you can let the Dice Gods decide :lol: One of the good things about Chaos is that there's a lot of scope for allied forces, so whichever Legion you go with it won't be a problem to add the other as a separate detachment later if you wish ;)


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#9
Doom Herald

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I say go with Iron Warriors. You will always be able to play Black Legion in a way that feels like Black Legion, but Iron Warriors have not always had, and might not always have, that. Iron Warriors also get a pretty decent use from cultists, meaning using them just for CP isn't as much of a tax on your army.

Edited by Doom Herald, 07 January 2020 - 01:58 AM.


#10
SanguinaryGuardsman

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I'm a bit annoyed that Chaos Space Marines do not currently have underlying core strength based off of their datasheets and codex.  They have to rely on soup options and very particular stratagems to cobble together a strong list and that doesn't really sit well with me.  It also bothers me quite a bit that actual marines still cant really see a tabletop even at 11 points. 

 

That being said, they have very powerful tools atm and it would not shock me if chaos soup had a strong showing at LVO.   



#11
Wayniac

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I say go with Iron Warriors. You will always be able to play Black Legion in a way that feels like Black Legion, but Iron Warriors have not always had, and might not always have, that. Iron Warriors also get a pretty decent use from cultists, meaning using them just for CP isn't as much of a tax on your army.

 

Funnily enough I am making a list of pros/cons of both.  One of the pros of BL and cons of IW I have written down is that BL gives access to the entire gamut of the Codex, while to really stay true to IW fluff some things shouldn't be used or used very sparingly, so it adds more arbitrary restrictions to list building on top of what's already there.  However one big con for BL Is they are really popular (not to say IW isn't, they are one of the more popular legions) so there's a lot of black legion players.

 

However I do already have a 5-man squad, Abaddon, MoP and most of a Chainlord painted as Black Legion already while I only have the majority of a Havoc squad and most of a Venomcrawler painted as IW....


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- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#12
40kChris

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Just enjoy the enjoyment-of-multiple-things!

 

I've started breaking down my collection... I figured out that I LOVE building, and sort of don't like painting that much... into separate armies with at least 2 detachments in each.  Each detachment ends up being ~750-950 points.  I can scale them down as needed since each one has a basic core to it that doesn't change that much.  So if I want to run my 20 Possessed Flawless Host Vanguard Detachment next to my Helbrute heavy Iron Warriors Vanguard Detachment I can.  They just happen to be working together because Abaddon ordered it. msn-wink.gif

 

Anymore the older fluff is a self imposed restriction, but it has been maintained slightly with the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codices having restrictions to certain units... which would be something to look out for possible WE and EC codices once/if they arrive.

 

Basically it's your hobby and you can do whatever you want.  Have both?  Run both!  Want to narrow it down?  Maybe go with the one you enjoy painting the most, since you'll be painting it for a hot minute.


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#13
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Wayniac the Indecisive indeed tongue.png If you're really stuck you can let the Dice Gods decide laugh.png One of the good things about Chaos is that there's a lot of scope for allied forces, so whichever Legion you go with it won't be a problem to add the other as a separate detachment later if you wish msn-wink.gif

Additionally, between Haarken Worldclaimer, Chosen Enforcers, Legacy of Horus, Abaddon, etc, the Black Legion are well suited to being the core of a soup army of multiple legions.






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