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Potential Chapter Idea: Ace Asks an Awkward Question


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#1
Ace Debonair

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So I've got this Chapter I'm working on, and I want to play with the *possibility* that they might be the last survivors of the XI Legion. ph34r.png

 

Wait! Put down the flaming torches and the Power Pitchforks - just let me finish first. sweat.gif ermm.gif

I've got a fair bit of stuff roughly worked out - who Primarch XI was, what he was like, what he did to get erased from history, how come there's any surviviors at all, how they got back into the Imperium, that sort of thing. (Admittedly the last part is kind of a feeble Deus Ex Machina at the moment, but I'm working on that too!) I don't have enough to go on and flesh out an entire comprehensive article on the history of the XI Legion, their Primarch's every word and list of battle honours, but I've got enough for a decent short summary.

My main question - since this is somewhat of a tricky subject - is how much of this stuff should even make it into an article about the Chapter? Would it be better left out completely? Tucked away in spoiler tags at the end of the article? Or should it be brazen about the theoretical Chapter's ties to the theoretical XI Legion, and mention them early and often?

Obviously my plan is for the Chapter to not really need the XI Legion stuff, and be able to function as a standalone Chapter in its' own right. I'd like it to be able to fit into everyone's headcanon as a Chapter, even if not as a successor of the XI Legion.

 

I'm leaning towards "spoiler tag at the end that tells you about my XI Legion and their ties to the Chapter, and can be safely read or ignored as you see fit", but I don't know if even that is going too far or will break Suspension of Disbelief like a Power Fist crumpling a steel sheet.

If the consensus answer is "none of this censored.gif Heresy belongs in an IA and you're a dirty censored.gif heretic for even suggesting it", then that too is alright - I'll put the Chapter on the backburner whilst I adjust a few bits (I.E. the entire thing) and their real history can be my little secret. ph34r.png

Soooo... thoughts? sweat.gif



#2
Bryan Blaire

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I think that as long as you work out who knows what about the XI Legion heritage, how they know, and why it makes it important, along with any consequences of who knows, then you shoul go for it. There are many, many ways I could see it playing out that it would be interesting to see your take on it.
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#3
Bjorn Firewalker

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As you put this in Liber Astartes instead of Liber Chaotica, I'm assuming your XI Legion remnants are loyalists. You might as well have the Chapter ID itself as an Ultramarines successor- in The First Heretic, Aaron Dembski-Bowden hinted the pre-Heresy XIII Legion absorbed II and XI Legion members who weren't purged- the only ones who know otherwise are the Emperor, Guilliman, Cawl, and the XI Primarch himself, of whom the first is unable to tell the truth, the second and third are unwilling.

Naturally, the IA should minimize mention of links between your Chapter and the XI Legion, unless there was good reason- maybe the Sons of Malice attempted to force your Marines to join them in worshipping Malice/Malal (whose holy number is 11)?
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#4
Gederas

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The XIth? You mean the Wardens of Light? msn-wink.gif

 

In all seriousness, it's homebrew. These are "Your Dudes". Do what you want, as long as it's done in a manner that can fit in with established fluff, it's all good*.

 

Remember: In Dark Imperium, Cawl outright says he has II and XIth Legion gene-seed when discussing the Primaris with Guilliman.

 

 

*This is coming from someone who's making a Codex: Space Marines force that's flat-out Loyalist Iron Warriors. Not "successors made from Iron Warriors gene-seed" but Legio IV marines.


Edited by Gederas, 06 January 2020 - 01:33 AM.


#5
Ace Debonair

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The XIth? You mean the Wardens of Light? msn-wink.gif


Interesting read, but they're definitely not the guys I meant. tongue.png

My XI Legion were called the Abyssal Host, although I'm changing the name to The Oceanborn, since I like it better.

I'll try to summarize the Oceanborn as a Legion. They're roughly greek in culture, come from a world dominated by naval battles, and due to their Primarch's influence will constantly tinker with and refine technology to better suit them. They favoured mechanized warfare supported by elite infantry formations, but were generally flexible enough to try their hands at all manner of battles.

Their Primarch, Nerius Argonar, is a tech-savvy and hugely charismatic man with a keen eye for details and a "good enough is never good enough" mindset. Alongside more traditional roads to improvement like refining training routines or devising new strategies, Nerius always has plans to improve each and every piece of gear he gets his hands on, either through calibration, refinement, or tweaking of some details. The XI legion carries a lot of esoteric gear - Nerius has strong ties to the Mechanicum and is often at the forefront of hunting for lost technology, although his tendency to experiment earns him as many enemies as friends amongst the high-ranking Magos.

Nerius was evetually exiled for trying to build better Space Marines and tampering with the geneseed in order to do so, with predictably disastrous results.

 

Geneseed is little-understood and even small changes can have far-reaching effects - in this case what appeared to be a successful upgrading of half the Legion turned out to be a preliminary stage for complete mental and physical degradation - the marines Nerius experimented on either mutating hugely or outright dying. The degenerating marines cost the Imperium a handful of victories against a would-be counter-empire in Segmentum Pacificus, and worse, allow these usurpers access to Legion technology and the geneseeds of the few unaffected marines left to fight a war alone.

In a fury, the Emperor exiles Nerius and his Legion, to wander the empty void beyond the galaxy for a thousand years as penance, with no man permitted to speak, write or otherwise make mention of the Emperor's Wayward Son or his Legion until such penance is completed. When Nerius attempts to protest, both Horus and Russ are made to basically chase him out, to their joint regret.

The counter-empire was defeated, of course. The last survivors of the XI Legion, imprisoned in enemy territory, were executed by the Space Wolves, a solemn duty carried out with due gravity.

Nerius leaves the galaxy, flying blind into dark space. He gets into a battle with an ant-like alien race called the Axoda Roh who live in the darkness beyond the stars. Destroying and damaging several of their colony ships, the Oceanborn fight defiantly against increasingly overwhelming numbers until their Primarch is killed in battle by a hyper-corrosive toxic sword used by the Roh's vaunted Lord-Alchemitect (their war leader). Nerius, of course, survives long enough to Power Fist the Lord-Alchemitect's head clean off his shoulders before succumbing to the injury.

Afterwards, a single Oceanborn battle barge is steered homeward, bearing two hundred and fifty marines as an honour guard, and the corpse of their Primarch.

The rest of the Oceanborn Legion die fighting in the empty void, warring to the very last to avenge their Primarch.

The battle barge sent home is swallowed by a freak warpstorm on the galaxy's edge, and spat out near an area of space called the Glastheim Rifts...

And from there the Oceanborn undergo the transition from 'Legion' to 'Chapter'. There's more details on how, but I'm saving that for a moment because typing all of the above has made my fingers hurt.


The funny part being I'd had this idea a year or two BEFORE Primaris was a thing. If Conn Eremon was still around, he'd be able to point out how I'd discussed the Abyssal Host and their Primarch with him a few years ago.

 

I like the mad scientist/Tony-Stark-The-Primarch story enough to keep it, and it also lets me sit here going to myself "Sure, Cawl did ALL the work on Primaris. Yep, definitely. Absolutely NO PART of Nerius' research was involved." tongue.png
 

I think that as long as you work out who knows what about the XI Legion heritage, how they know, and why it makes it important, along with any consequences of who knows, then you shoul go for it. There are many, many ways I could see it playing out that it would be interesting to see your take on it.

 
My current intention is that only the Chapter itself knows the truth about their origins.

Well, them and eventually Guilliman - who has a lot more to deal with than a beaten-up Chapter sharing the name and colours of a missing Legion.

I *might* hint that Big Bobby has paid the Oceanborn a discreet visit during the Indomitus Crusade, but don't know if that's a worthwhile addition yet. ph34r.png

 

As you put this in Liber Astartes instead of Liber Chaotica, I'm assuming your XI Legion remnants are loyalists. You might as well have the Chapter ID itself as an Ultramarines successor- in The First Heretic, Aaron Dembski-Bowden hinted the pre-Heresy XIII Legion absorbed II and XI Legion members who weren't purged- the only ones who know otherwise are the Emperor, Guilliman, Cawl, and the XI Primarch himself, of whom the first is unable to tell the truth, the second and third are unwilling.

Naturally, the IA should minimize mention of links between your Chapter and the XI Legion, unless there was good reason- maybe the Sons of Malice attempted to force your Marines to join them in worshipping Malice/Malal (whose holy number is 11)?


Actually, the Oceanborn are going to claim descent from the Imperial Fists. There's some circumstances involved here, but largely what they're going to do is take the place of a Dorn-Lineage Chapter that is all-but destroyed by heretics. The few survivors of the IF chapter will instruct the XI Legion on how to behave like a Chapter, for the purpose of ensuring the IF successor is avenged.

I do plan to minimize the links between the Oceanborn as a Legion and the Oceanborn as a Chapter.

For example, if the notion of being XI Legion successors doesn't sit right, I hope to frame the above as the Dorn Chapter simply changing name and colours, cutting ties with their past selves who were so easily deceived and defeated by traitors.

Their fortress monastery - on an island - is going to be bombed into the ocean. Bits of it are going to survive, or at least be salvageable to the point the modern Chapter's fortress monastery is largely underwater. Hence, Oceanborn - those recruits chosen for the Chapter are taken under the wild seas to begin their new life as Space Marines.


Yeah, I think my next step will be to work out a proper outline for these guys and see if the concept holds water (ha!) in anything approaching a proper article format.

This might take a little while, though. It's going to be hard work making it all watertight (ha!), after all. sweat.gif


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#6
Messor

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If the consensus answer is "none of this censored.gif Heresy belongs in an IA and you're a dirty censored.gif heretic for even suggesting it", then that too is alright - I'll put the Chapter on the backburner whilst I adjust a few bits (I.E. the entire thing) and their real history can be my little secret. ph34r.png

Soooo... thoughts? sweat.gif

 

I would honestly be troubled if people came to that conclusion. Besides such projects being the very purpose of the Liber, imo, that's also part of why the lost legions are the way they are; so people can play with them as they see fit. This sounds like a really interesting project, and I'm really interested to see what lore you create and how you weave into the setting.


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#7
Brother Lunkhead

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If the consensus answer is "none of this censored.gif Heresy belongs in an IA and you're a dirty censored.gif heretic for even suggesting it", then that too is alright - I'll put the Chapter on the backburner whilst I adjust a few bits (I.E. the entire thing) and their real history can be my little secret. ph34r.png

Soooo... thoughts? sweat.gif

 

I would honestly be troubled if people came to that conclusion. Besides such projects being the very purpose of the Liber, imo, that's also part of why the lost legions are the way they are; so people can play with them as they see fit. This sounds like a really interesting project, and I'm really interested to see what lore you create and how you weave into the setting.

 

 

Well said siryes.gif


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#8
Ace Debonair

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Well, the Oceanborn have had a fairly positive reception so far, so I'm feeling inspired. happy.png

 

I can't decide if I should work on the Chapter or the Legion first, or even if both should be in the same article. wacko.png

 

The end goal is to create a Chapter, the Oceanborn's last survivors. But in order to do that, I suppose I have to establish what that really means, and thus get to work on fleshing out the Legion.

 

Which means my first step is going to be doing some serious reading on the Heresy to get myself into the lore a little more.

 

After that, it's trying to sort out a half-decent Legion article.

 

I hadn't intended my Hobby Resolution for 2020 to be "Go big or go home", but here we are, I guess. laugh.png


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#9
Brother Lunkhead

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I think starting your project by concentrating on the XI Legion first is a good strategy. Once that's done you'll need to figure out how to communicate the importance the XI Legion connection is, and at the same time minimize or even sever the connection between the Chapter and the Legion to give them the look and feel of legitimacy. You'll probably want the Lord Commander on your side too in order to hide bodies and otherwise smooth things over for your guys to be recognized as an official chapter.

 

Posted Yesterday, 03:41 AM

 

My current intention is that only the Chapter itself knows the truth about their origins.

Well, them and eventually Guilliman - who has a lot more to deal with than a beaten-up Chapter sharing the name and colours of a missing Legion.
 dry.png 

 

You'd better have a better story than this. Unless Primarch Guilliman has some sympathetic connection to their former legion and a more legitimate reason to turn a blind eye to a band of Space Marines descended from a Legion wiped from the face of history by The Emperor himself, he's more likely than not to turn his Unnumbered Sons loose on this "beaten-up Chapter" and be done with them.

 

You've got your work cut out for you on this one, but I have full faith in your story weaving skills. If anyone can pull this off, you can Brother Acethumbsup.gif


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 07 January 2020 - 09:03 PM.

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#10
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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The main hurdle you have to get over using the lost legions (and it's quite a big one) is the fact that it's treated with such world-ending seriousness by even the Primarchs themselves, even in their own company.

 

They almost come to blows over their mention, they refuse to talk about it, them or the events surrounding it. Big E doesn't talk about it with even his Custodians. Hell, the biggest nail in this particular coffin is Horus himself. Even after his traitorous turn and marching on His Imperium, he still doesn't talk about it. It's a rule Horus doesn't break even when he's the arch traitor and about to destroy the Imperium, kill his brothers and the Emperor.

 

This is where you're going to have the most problems, though I understand the draw to use them.

 

However what I'd ask you to consider is, what are you getting out of using the Lost Legions in terms of character building that you couldn't do otherwise?

 

I honestly still keep the same attitude I did from the old Liber days. Same as 'Lost in the Warp' or 'personal friends with Rogal Dorn' or 'Custodians favourite'. They're crutches, they allow you to simply state something, or hand wave away things that ordinarily you'd need to write well or creatively to build something up as part of their character or culture.

 

Using a Lost Legion doesn't add anything to an IA for me, if anything it simply means you're going to have more problems and issues related to this particular tropes use crop up than if you didn't use them.

 

What are you going for? If you end up writing everything, liking the theme, character and culture of the chapter, try then removing the Lost Legion influence and set up, and see if you lose anything. I'd guess not, myself.

 

By all means go for it and write it. I'd like to see it done well and I'm happy for people not to agree with me. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

 

Emperor knows people think I'm a contrarian as it is!


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#11
Ace Debonair

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You'd better have a better story than this.


I'll get there, don't fret. sweat.gif

There's going to be a lot of work before I address this particular point, but I am working away on this legion in my head pretty much 24/7 at the moment, and it is now firmly on my radar as an especially weak part of the proposed narrative.

 
So with that said, what I've been doing for the last three hours is piecing together some notes on how I picture the character and personality of the XI Legion and their Primarch.

I'm going to post them here so I've got easy access to them for when I'm working on the XI Legion Compendium or whatever the heck I'll call the article when I start working on it. tongue.png


-= Nerius Argonar, the XI Primarch, the Bronze Colossus, Lord of the Oceanborn =-

* A natural-born engineer and scientist, Nerius has a keen observational eye and a love of adapting, upgrading and adjusting wargear and machines between battles. He is of course a soldier first, like all Primarchs. Argonar's grasp of tactics and strategy, though hardly epoch-defining, are certainly not lacking.

* His own weapons and armour are a source of constant adjustment and modification - it is sometimes said that Nerius Argonar never wears the exact same armour to two consecutive battles.

* Personality-wise: Studious, earnest and ambitious. Nerius is generally quite easy-going and charismatic, although if he feels insulted he can turn caustic and spiteful extremely quickly. He can also be dismissive and flippant towards endeavours that he feels pose limited challenge, and in particular is often arrogant about defeating 'lesser' enemies with comparatively primitive technologies. This can and does bite him in the butt more than once, but Nerius, like many Primarchs, is bad at learning the lesson he's supposed to from this sort of situation.

* These traits, combined with his endless fascination with technology and fidgeting with perfectly functional wargear, makes Argonar unpopular with some of his brothers, and sometimes even exasperates those amongst his own sons that don't share Nerius' attitude so closely.

* Nonetheless, looked at objectively, Nerius is a fairly solid statesman and diplomat (though certainly not the best at either role), a respectable warrior in his own right (but not an apex-level combat monster), and a master of tech-craft and re-calibration (but not a master-level blacksmith like Vulkan, Fulgrim or Ferrus)


-= Sons of the Colossus =-

* The XI Legion take a lot of personality cues from their Primarch. Argonar's motto of "good enough is never good enough" becomes a Legion-wide philosophy. Equipment is tinkered with and modified to better suit the marine wielding it, although such changes are generally gradual and small in scale.

* Two veterans in the same squad may have completely different armour, ignoring surface appearance; each suit attuned to behave in different ways that suit their wearers.

* Probably more than a few surface-level modifications as well, more than likely a mix-and-match approach to armour types is common in squads.

* A typical Oceanborn marine is, like their father, studious and given to as much careful analysis as a situation allows. Much like their Primarch, they tend to believe that any obstacle can be overcome with sufficient use of advanced technology.

* That said, any two or more Oceanborn of equal rank are likely to disagree on precisely *which* advanced technology to use for a given situation, and will happily prioritize bickering and arguing to convince each other of the 'rightness' of their respective approaches. Only an ingrained, rock-hard adherence to the chain of command (and suitable orders from on high) reliably keeps Oceanborn strategic or tactical planning from becoming a yelling match between participants.

* For this reason, Oceanborn Companies tend to work best either alone or in the company of other Legions, where the XI will make more of an attempt at solidarity, due to their Primarch's edict to (in short) 'play nice'.

* High ranking Oceanborn are often decent statesmen and diplomats as well as warriors and engineers, echoing their gene-father's diverse skill set.
 

 

-----

 

I genuinely can't tell if I've done ok with this, or if it's complete drivel, in no small part due to the fact it's now half-past midnight and bits of my brain are shutting down regardless of my own commands to keep going. laugh.png

 

Does any of the above post even make sense?  sweat.gif

C&C welcome, as always. happy.png

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

GHY, you ninja'd me good there, brother.

 

I'll address your points once I've had some sleep and mulled them all over a bit - they're good points, and I'll have to think on them for a bit.


Edited by Ace Debonair, 08 January 2020 - 10:57 AM.

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#12
Felix Antipodes

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I have often given thought about why no one, especially Heretic Astartes, have ever spilt the beans about the lost legions. Why even Horus himself says nothing, let alone random marine #4352 while taunting a loyalist.
Maybe they can't? Could the Emperor have been so pissed off that he cast a psychic spell over all who knew of them; literally stopping them from uttering their name and/or fate?
If that's the case Guilliman wouldn't be able to say anything even if he recognised their colours (even I think it would be a step too far to use their original name - not that anyone bar a Primarch would recognise it).

You said that only the Chapter itself knows their origin as the XIth. Might that be a command level thing (without going all DA level of secrecy) since I imagine their are no original exiles left? Maybe a CM to CM thing?
On a different tack, what if the Imperium itself doesn't believe they are XIth Legion descent? "Sure you are, heard it a thousand times over the millennia lol".

Intrigued to see where you take this.
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#13
Ace Debonair

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The main hurdle you have to get over using the lost legions (and it's quite a big one) is the fact that it's treated with such world-ending seriousness by even the Primarchs themselves, even in their own company.
 
They almost come to blows over their mention, they refuse to talk about it, them or the events surrounding it. Big E doesn't talk about it with even his Custodians. Hell, the biggest nail in this particular coffin is Horus himself. Even after his traitorous turn and marching on His Imperium, he still doesn't talk about it. It's a rule Horus doesn't break even when he's the arch traitor and about to destroy the Imperium, kill his brothers and the Emperor.
 
This is where you're going to have the most problems, though I understand the draw to use them.
 
However what I'd ask you to consider is, what are you getting out of using the Lost Legions in terms of character building that you couldn't do otherwise?
 
I honestly still keep the same attitude I did from the old Liber days. Same as 'Lost in the Warp' or 'personal friends with Rogal Dorn' or 'Custodians favourite'. They're crutches, they allow you to simply state something, or hand wave away things that ordinarily you'd need to write well or creatively to build something up as part of their character or culture.
 
Using a Lost Legion doesn't add anything to an IA for me, if anything it simply means you're going to have more problems and issues related to this particular tropes use crop up than if you didn't use them.
 
What are you going for? If you end up writing everything, liking the theme, character and culture of the chapter, try then removing the Lost Legion influence and set up, and see if you lose anything. I'd guess not, myself.
 
By all means go for it and write it. I'd like to see it done well and I'm happy for people not to agree with me. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
 
Emperor knows people think I'm a contrarian as it is!

 
Things to be gained exclusively from writing a Lost Legion and/or Lost Legion successor:

1] The Challenge of writing a half-decent Lost Legion / Successor
2] The Challenge of writing a half-decent Primarch

 

Things specifically to be gained from writing the Oceanborn as I currently have planned:

 

1] A hidden chamber in their Successor's Fortress Monastery containing the body of their Primarch and some of his fanciest armour/weapons.

2] A marginally better explanation for Primaris marines than "Suddenly, Primaris!" - at least with a Lost Primarch having a go at it first, the seeds are planted for them.

 

...That is probably just about it. ermm.gif

Everything else could conceivably be done as just any old Chapter.

But hey, what's life without a challenge?

To be fair, the more I write the Oceanborn as a Legion, the more I find the only things their future successors truly have in common is the weapon/armour customisation shtick and coming from a world with a lot of water.

Oh, and the colours, but mostly because I haven't quite settled on a finished look for either.

So like I said in the original post, I could very easily just remove all the Lost Legion bits and have their real history as my little secret. I've been close to doing that for a very long time, but I always hesitate when I start to do so.

Imagine I'd written my Knights Oracular without the spoiler-tagged sections.
Even if I polished the rest of it until it stood on its' own as an article, they'd be incomplete and I alone would know it.

And it'd bug me. A lot.

It's kind of like that here. I'd rather be honest about my intention with the Chapter, even if it's frowned upon or does nothing but create a whole boatload of extra work for myself. sweat.gif

 

I realise it's likely to wind up as a complete and total failure, but I've sat on this idea long enough.
 

I have often given thought about why no one, especially Heretic Astartes, have ever spilt the beans about the lost legions. Why even Horus himself says nothing, let alone random marine #4352 while taunting a loyalist.
Maybe they can't? Could the Emperor have been so pissed off that he cast a psychic spell over all who knew of them; literally stopping them from uttering their name and/or fate?
If that's the case Guilliman wouldn't be able to say anything even if he recognised their colours (even I think it would be a step too far to use their original name - not that anyone bar a Primarch would recognise it).

You said that only the Chapter itself knows their origin as the XIth. Might that be a command level thing (without going all DA level of secrecy) since I imagine their are no original exiles left? Maybe a CM to CM thing?
On a different tack, what if the Imperium itself doesn't believe they are XIth Legion descent? "Sure you are, heard it a thousand times over the millennia lol".

Intrigued to see where you take this.


I quite like the idea that nobody can talk about the Oceanborn.

Although it seems kind of weird that He doesn't place a similar embargo on the traitor's names once the Heresy is underway. That'd really mess up Horus' ability to command the other Legions, if he can't even talk to or about them! tongue.png

Hmm. Something to think about, for certain.

 

You're right though, I'm probably going to find a new name for the Chapter that the Oceanborn become. Names are tricky, I'll see what comes up as I work on the Legion.

I figure the Chapter would know about their history and that it's something to keep to themselves.

They'd play the role of Generic Chapter #567 in the company of others, and then break out all the fancy, XI Primarch-inspired gadgets when fighting alone.

 

I suddenly realise this idea is basically a Chapter with a secret identity, like Bruce Wayne and Batman, and I honestly have no idea how to feel about that. unsure.png
 


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Bjorn Firewalker

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Idea for why no one can talk about the lost II and XI Legions:

The First Heretic suggested the Chaos Gods had a major role in the Primarchs' creation; Khorne's efforts to lure Sanguinius to his service in Fear to Tread, suggests the Chaos Gods weren't originally limited to one Primarch each.

What if Malal/Malice was the one behind the XI (his holy number) and II (looks like 11) Primarchs? As a Chaos God who seeks to destroy Chaos itself, Malal/Malice made enemies on both sides of the conflict, such that Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh all deny their followers knowledge of his very existence- a Champion of Chaos Undivided swears by the "Four Gods" in the story Honor Among Fiends, NOT by the "Five Gods".
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While developing your XI Legion background story this should be on the forefront of your mind:

 

Posted Yesterday, 04:32 PM

 

The main hurdle you have to get over using the lost legions (and it's quite a big one) is the fact that it's treated with such world-ending seriousness by even the Primarchs themselves, even in their own company.

 

What could this Primarch and his Legion (or maybe it was just the Primarch and his Legion suffered expungement for his fallhappy.png) have done to expunge them from history? Their statues in the Emperors Palace are removed while the statues of the traitor Primarchs are only covered. Even Malcador would not speak of them.

 

Posted Today, 03:50 AM

 

I quite like the idea that nobody can talk about the Oceanborn.

Although it seems kind of weird that He doesn't place a similar embargo on the traitor's names once the Heresy is underway. That'd really mess up Horus' ability to command the other Legions, if he can't even talk to or about them! tongue.png

Hmm. Something to think about, for certain.

 

From the conversations between characters concerning the "missing Primarchs" in the HH stories, I don't see any evidence at all that The Emperor cast a "psychic spell" to prevent even their names being mentioned.  IMO being an edict from the Emperor is good enough for them. However, in spite of the crimes of the traitor Legions, edicts and banning of information circulation concerning them is not as harsh (harsh yes, but not as harsh) brings me back to my first comment. What could they have done?

 

Idea for why no one can talk about the lost II and XI Legions:

The First Heretic suggested the Chaos Gods had a major role in the Primarchs' creation; Khorne's efforts to lure Sanguinius to his service in Fear to Tread, suggests the Chaos Gods weren't originally limited to one Primarch each.

What if Malal/Malice was the one behind the XI (his holy number) and II (looks like 11) Primarchs? As a Chaos God who seeks to destroy Chaos itself, Malal/Malice made enemies on both sides of the conflict, such that Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh all deny their followers knowledge of his very existence- a Champion of Chaos Undivided swears by the "Four Gods" in the story Honor Among Fiends, NOT by the "Five Gods".

 

This is definitely something to consider and would make an excellent foundation if you want to go the way of Chaos connection.

 

In Fear to Tread, Sanguinius confides to Horus his fear that his own Legion could be expunged in similar fashion should his own Legion's defect become general knowledge. So, perhaps in one or both, there was no crime involved, just bad geneshappy.png

 

At one point (I don't recall which HH story) Russ alludes to the possibility that He and the Rout executed at least one of the two missing Legions. This could of course just be Russ smack talk, but it might make for the basis of grudge and intrigue between your chapter and the Space Wolves.

 

Lots of challenges and ideas to consider in this task you've set yourself to. I dare say this could be your finest work. So considering this from you:

 

Things to be gained exclusively from writing a Lost Legion and/or Lost Legion successor:

1] The Challenge of writing a half-decent Lost Legion / Successor
2] The Challenge of writing a half-decent Primarch

 

I'm going to hold you to a higher standard than "half-decent". You can do much better than that..... and that's a factthumbsup.gif I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 08 January 2020 - 08:58 PM.

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#16
Ace Debonair

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What could this Primarch and his Legion (or maybe it was just the Primarch and his Legion suffered expungement for his fall^_^) have done to expunge them from history? Their statues in the Emperors Palace are removed while the statues of the traitor Primarchs are only covered. Even Malcador would not speak of them.

 
Uh...

I already posted my idea for that: 
 

Nerius was evetually exiled for trying to build better Space Marines and tampering with the geneseed in order to do so, with predictably disastrous results.
 
Geneseed is little-understood and even small changes can have far-reaching effects - in this case what appeared to be a successful upgrading of half the Legion turned out to be a preliminary stage for complete mental and physical degradation - the marines Nerius experimented on either mutating hugely or outright dying. The degenerating marines cost the Imperium a handful of victories against a would-be counter-empire in Segmentum Pacificus, and worse, allow these usurpers access to Legion technology and the geneseeds of the few unaffected marines left to fight a war alone.

In a fury, the Emperor exiles Nerius and his Legion, to wander the empty void beyond the galaxy for a thousand years as penance, with no man permitted to speak, write or otherwise make mention of the Emperor's Wayward Son or his Legion until such penance is completed. When Nerius attempts to protest, both Horus and Russ are made to basically chase him out, to their joint regret.

The counter-empire was defeated, of course. The last survivors of the XI Legion, imprisoned in enemy territory, were executed by the Space Wolves, a solemn duty carried out with due gravity.


Unless that's bad enough as a concept that I should outright forget it. ermm.gif

 

In which case, I currently have nothing else, and will have to spend more time in careful meditation on the matter. sweat.gif


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Messor

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If Sanguinius feared the same fate because of his Legions defect, I think that your concept works fine; it's arguably more severe, it's intentional, and it has the appropriate disastrous consequences.


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#18
Brother Lunkhead

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Greetings Brother Ace,

 

 

What could this Primarch and his Legion (or maybe it was just the Primarch and his Legion suffered expungement for his fall^_^) have done to expunge them from history? Their statues in the Emperors Palace are removed while the statues of the traitor Primarchs are only covered. Even Malcador would not speak of them.

 
Uh...

I already posted my idea for that: 
 

Nerius was evetually exiled for trying to build better Space Marines and tampering with the geneseed in order to do so, with predictably disastrous results.
 
Geneseed is little-understood and even small changes can have far-reaching effects - in this case what appeared to be a successful upgrading of half the Legion turned out to be a preliminary stage for complete mental and physical degradation - the marines Nerius experimented on either mutating hugely or outright dying. The degenerating marines cost the Imperium a handful of victories against a would-be counter-empire in Segmentum Pacificus, and worse, allow these usurpers access to Legion technology and the geneseeds of the few unaffected marines left to fight a war alone.

In a fury, the Emperor exiles Nerius and his Legion, to wander the empty void beyond the galaxy for a thousand years as penance, with no man permitted to speak, write or otherwise make mention of the Emperor's Wayward Son or his Legion until such penance is completed. When Nerius attempts to protest, both Horus and Russ are made to basically chase him out, to their joint regret.

The counter-empire was defeated, of course. The last survivors of the XI Legion, imprisoned in enemy territory, were executed by the Space Wolves, a solemn duty carried out with due gravity.

 

 

I was just pointing out some ideas. I wasn't sure how set you were on your Legion backstory. Apologies for not being more specific.

 

Unless that's bad enough as a concept that I should outright forget it.

 

No. I think it's a fine concept. But, while we're on the subject...…...msn-wink.gif

 

Nerius was evetually exiled for trying to build better Space Marines and tampering with the geneseed in order to do so, with predictably disastrous results.

 

Geneseed is little-understood and even small changes can have far-reaching effects - in this case what appeared to be a successful upgrading of half the Legion turned out to be a preliminary stage for complete mental and physical degradation - the marines Nerius experimented on either mutating hugely or outright dying. The degenerating marines cost the Imperium a handful of victories against a would-be counter-empire in Segmentum Pacificus, and worse, allow these usurpers access to Legion technology and the geneseeds of the few unaffected marines left to fight a war alone.

 

This is very good. There is clear cause and affect that is very serious on a strategic scale.

 

In a fury, the Emperor exiles Nerius and his Legion, to wander the empty void beyond the galaxy for a thousand years as penance, with no man permitted to speak, write or otherwise make mention of the Emperor's Wayward Son or his Legion until such penance is completed.

 

This is also good. Even though your Primarch has committed a grave error, The Emperor shows an element of mercy in his judgement. Nerius and his Legion may yet survive after much correction.

 

When Nerius attempts to protest, both Horus and Russ are made to basically chase him out, to their joint regret.

 

"Nerius attempts to protest".... big mistake..... shows no contrition...… bad move on his partpinch.gif

 

"....., both Horus and Russ are made to basically chase him out..." This can be interpreted several ways given what we have from the Horus Heresy lore.

  • Nurius is chased out of the Empire, forced into exile
  • Horus and Russ chase after him in order to arrest him and bring him before The Emperor
  • Horus and Russ are sent out to execute Nerius and his Legion

You should expand on this.

 

"......, to their joint regret."  To the regret of all three? What kind of regret are you talking about, Horus' and Russ' regret over having to punish their brother, regret over the cost in casualties to all sides, or perhaps a combination?

 

Afterwards, a single Oceanborn battle barge is steered homeward, bearing two hundred and fifty marines as an honour guard, and the corpse of their Primarch.

The rest of the Oceanborn Legion die fighting in the empty void, warring to the very last to avenge their Primarch.

The battle barge sent home is swallowed by a freak warpstorm on the galaxy's edge, and spat out near an area of space called the Glastheim Rifts...

 

This is a good set up for the return of Narius' Legion survivors. The trick is to execute their return and transition to chapter status in a credible mannner. Therein lies the great story telling challengemsn-wink.gif


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 09 January 2020 - 04:58 PM.

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#19
Ace Debonair

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If Sanguinius feared the same fate because of his Legions defect, I think that your concept works fine; it's arguably more severe, it's intentional, and it has the appropriate disastrous consequences.

 
There's going to be a couple of possible reasons The Emperor is ticked off about it, too.

* The obvious: messing with Geneseed without understanding it might make the resulting Space Marines easier to corrupt

* The almost equally obvious: messing with geneseed without understanding arguably caused the Chaos Gods to actively interefere with The Emperor's plans, and he doesn't want any of his Sons anywhere near those things.

* The slightly less obvious: given The Emperor wants humanity to rule the stars, not Space Marines to rule, perhaps The Emperor is worried Nerius would move on to genetically augmenting Humanity as a whole, possibly leading to war and or corruption down the road

* The less likely but still possible: given The Emperor wants humanity to rule the stars, not Space Marines to rule the stars, perhaps He already had a progression / deactivation plan in mind for the Astartes that Nerius was in danger of messing up

* The extra-heretical and least likely (but still on the very, very edge of possibility): The Emperor is outraged that one of His sons came close to surpassing His own work, and since He is an enormously egotistical narcissist, petty jealousy fuels The Emperor's decision to exile and erase the XI Primarch and his sons.

 

"Nerius attempts to protest".... big mistake..... shows no contrition...… bad move on his part:pinch:


Oh, yeah.

Nerius needs some flaws - all the best Primarchs have them ( tongue.png ) - and stubborn arrogance seems like a good fit.

 

It's hardly a unique flaw, but you can certainly see the family resemblance! laugh.png

 

"....., both Horus and Russ are made to basically chase him out..." This can be interpreted several ways given what we have from the Horus Heresy lore.

  • Nurius is chased out of the Empire, forced into exile
  • Horus and Russ chase after him in order to arrest him and bring him before The Emperor
  • Horus and Russ are sent out to execute Nerius and his Legion
You should expand on this.
 
"......, to their joint regret."  To the regret of all three? What kind of regret are you talking about, Horus' and Russ' regret over having to punish their brother, regret over the cost in casualties to all sides, or perhaps a combination?

 


Currently, it's Nerius and his Legion being escorted (with only the threat of violence, no actual inter-Legion open warfare, because Nerius might be arrogant sometimes, but he's not stupid) to the edge of the galaxy by Horus, Russ and their respective Legions.

Horus, who Nerius considers a good friend, is saddened to see the fate befalling his brother, and possibly part of him is wondering if there isn't another, better way to have solved this problem. ph34r.png

Russ, who isn't quite as close (and has had Oceanborn blood on his hands already), is growing increasingly aware this sort of duty may be his Legion's purpose, and doesn't feel quite comfortable shedding more Imperial blood. If Nerius was more openly rebellious, now...

Both, however, are doing their duty. Disobeying The Emperor is unthinkable, after all.

I also intend to leave open the possibility that Russ and his Legion have done something similar to this before, with the other missing Legion.
 

This is a good set up for the return of Narius' Legion survivors. The trick is to execute their return and transition to chapter status in a credible mannner. Therein lies the great story telling challenge;)


It's the bit I'm most worried about. laugh.png
I'm mulling it over in the back of my head whilst I work on The Legion and their Primarch, though.


--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==

I'm starting to think I might leave the Chapter's name as the Abyssal Host, and have the Legion as the Oceanborn.

The Abyssal Host could have been the 30k-era nickname of the XI Legion's First Company, or something like that.

I'm also really tempted to have the Chapter nickname their First Company, in turn, the Oceanborn - it's like a little in-joke for them that they can say just who they are and nobody really gets it. laugh.png


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Bjorn Firewalker

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I'm also really tempted to have the Chapter nickname their First Company, in turn, the Oceanborn


You mean "Warp-born"? (Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons referred to the Warp as the "Great Ocean," according the Graham McNeill's A Thousand Sons.)
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#21
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No, I mean have the Chapter that is the remnant of the XI Legion give their First Company the name of the XI Legion.

 

… Wow, that was a confusing sentence. Let me try again. wacko.png

 

So let's say the XI Legion (Oceanborn) has a First Company called the Abyssal Host.

 

The group who survives the death of the XI Legion eventually take the name 'The Abyssal Host' for their Chapter, since they're in the company of their (admittedly dead) Primarch.

 

Furthering that connection, the Chapter in turn name their First Company 'The Oceanborn' as a way of acknowledging the dead XI Legion - since nobody else is around who has ever heard of the original XI Legion, they figure they're safe in doing so.

 

Does that make more sense?

It's late at night, and I'm aware my ability to communicate more or less leaves me after a certain point in the day.sweat.gif



#22
Bjorn Firewalker

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No, I mean have the Chapter that is the remnant of the XI Legion give their First Company the name of the XI Legion.

I know what you mean, but do the Oceanborn themselves know?

Do the Chaos Space Marines know? Will the Thousand Sons try to use their (falsely) common heritage with the Oceanborn to draw the latter to their side? Successful or not, such attempts can add a lot of history, and its associated flavor, to this IA.
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#23
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Further thoughts.
 
I'm considering the name Abyss Wardens for the Chapter. My reasoning being: the name can refer to the XI Legion's time spent in exile, and also their constant watch for incursions by the now-distant aliens that slew their Primarch.
 
As a bonus, it sounds like a Chapter that stoically watches and combats the forces of Heresy in the warp-storm-saturated Glastheim Rifts.
I mean, of course, that is also true of the Chapter, but the primary reasons for the name will remain tied to their own secret heritage. ph34r.png
 

 

No, I mean have the Chapter that is the remnant of the XI Legion give their First Company the name of the XI Legion.

I know what you mean, but do the Oceanborn themselves know?

Do the Chaos Space Marines know? Will the Thousand Sons try to use their (falsely) common heritage with the Oceanborn to draw the latter to their side? Successful or not, such attempts can add a lot of history, and its associated flavor, to this IA.

 


Well... my current plan is to have the Chapter be aware of their otherwise secret history.
So yes, for the moment at least, the modern Chapter will know they're bearing part of the lost XI Legion's heritage. happy.png
 
Hmmmm…. There is a Warband called the Hatecrowned in the Glastheim Rifts who strongly suspect the Chapter is really the last of the XI Legion. They haven't got any actual proof, but I doubt that would stop the Hatecrowned from taunting the Chapter at every chance they get.
 
 
In fact, while I'm in the mood for writing, let me have a quick bash at organising my thoughts on how the Legion becomes a Chapter.
 
 
----====----====----====----====----====----
 
* Last survivors of the XI Legion are eaten by a freak Warp Storm on the galaxy's edge, en route to Terra with the body of their slain Primarch. Roughly 250~300 marines.
 
* Said survivors are spat out near the Glastheim Rifts, millennia later.
 
* They attempt contact with an Imperial world, which turns out to be a backwater agri-world with a respectable, devout population, and manage to attain some basic information (namely the approximate date and the fact The Emperor is now The God-Emperor, Blessed-He-Who-Is-Entombed-On-Holy-Terra to most people in the Imperium)
 
* Trying not to freak out, they look for signs of another Legion, and find a Chapter called the [Placeholders] of Ramosha, an Imperial Fists successor from the recent 10th Founding.
 
* The [Placeholders] and their brother Chapter, the Daggers of Drakon, are battle-worn and battered by heretic and alien attacks. When the Oceanborn offer to help both Chapters fight their enemies in exchange for information, the [Placeholders] agree to the terms. The Daggers do not, instead attacking both the [Placeholders] and the Oceanborn, accusing the Oceanborn of being heretics and the [Placeholders] of being seduced by Chaos.
 
* The fight would have gone incredibly badly for the Daggers, had they not (in a fit of MASSIVE hypocrisy) fallen into the grasp of Chaos once the battle began, flooding the [Placeholders] home world of Ramosha with un-natural, daemonic foes. As it stands, the battle was fiercely fought. The island containing the [Placeholders] fortress monastery was destroyed, sinking under the turbulent seas.
 
* The Daggers were eventually driven off by the [Placeholders] and the Oceanborn. The former's strength was all but spent, their numbers dwindled to the point of inevitable extinction.
 
* The [Placeholders] made the XI Legion a deal: they would give the last of their geneseed to the Oceanborn (for use with geneseed tithes, maybe even maintaining a Company that is actually of Dorn's line, not 100% sure yet) and teach the Legion how to become a Chapter, but in return the Oceanborn must inherit the duties of the [Placeholders] - to protect the Glastheim Rifts and bring it back under Imperial control, and to avenge their bitter loss to the Daggers of Drakon.
 
* The deal is agreed upon, and the Oceanborn essentially take over from the [Placeholders], unifying both forces as the Abyss Wardens. ++
 
 
 * Addendum - the Daggers of Drakon are seen in the company of daemons by some Imperial Guard and / or Mechanicus forces, and the Daggers flee into the Rifts to hide from the Imperium's wrath. They eventually rechristen themselves as the Hatecrowned, and conflict between the Hatecrowned and the Oceanborn/Abyss Wardens perpetuates all the way to present day, with each side roaring accusations of betrayal and heresy at the other.
 
 
++ Name subject to change, pending further review. sweat.gif

----====----====----====----====----====----

Throne alone knows if this all is even a good idea (probably not - even a badly beaten Dornish Chapter has its' pride, and might not accept the help of outsiders like the Oceanborn even if they're fighting a losing war), let alone a workable one. pinch.gif

 

I begin to see how ridiculously good writing skills are a legitimate requirement for projects like this, and so doubt begins to set in.

Perhaps this task is beyond me, but then again, what good is a challenge that doesn't push one's skills to the limit?


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#24
Bjorn Firewalker

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Suggested name for the Imperial Fists successor: the Upholders, for they "uphold Imperial authority and the Emperor's claim upon the worlds of the Glastheim Rifts."
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That certainly sounds much better than the Placeholders! laugh.png

 

I'll use that unless another, equally well-fitting name occurs to me. happy.png






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