Medjugorje Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 This would also be another way to get an advancing unit into close combat, so you move+advance and use devout push to get them into combat or just closer. Its a free 6" movement in the charge phase!. 9" 3 pile in + 6" consolidation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymnblade Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Edit : huh, since the FAQ mentions that you can use it even if not within 1" of an enemy... this means that you can use it on a BT unit that wouldn't have been able to fight otherwise (if it had charged it would be within 1"). So... if it does not imply that you can fight with the unit, it means you get to pile-in and gently stare down the enemy ? Who, on the other hand, could very well punch you ? If you get within 1", then you can still be chosen to fight as normal. The stratagem doesn't interfere with the usual process of choosing units to fight, it just lets you move one unit before all that starts happening. So you can use it to get into melee and then fight without taking Overwatch, or to get in with units that are disallowed from charging, or it can be like a Heroic Intervention when used in the opponent's turn. ...assuming my reading is the correct one. I love that, even after the FAQ that had two entries specifically devoted to it, it's still not totally clear what Devout Push actually does. Kyliadan and Marius_Aurilius 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 That seems to me like a fairly tortured reading of the rules. Canticle of Hate has the same "when a friendly <CHAPTER> unit makes a pile-in or consolidate move" phrasing, but nobody plays it as a guaranteed 12" of movement in every fight phase. because you can pile in just if you are in 1" of an enemy.. Our stratagem allow that without. As I read it again - I would say 3" extra movement and if you get into melee you can pile in and consolidate again which makes +9" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyliadan Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 If you get within 1", then you can still be chosen to fight as normal. Right, this one's one me. But if we go with your reading, it would have been less confusing calling it, literally, a "3" move" than a pile-in. And just to be clear, or at least clearer than GW, I'm not calling you on your interpretation, I'm calling on that Hood-forsaken wording Hymnblade 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmu Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) If you get within 1", then you can still be chosen to fight as normal. Right, this one's one me. But if we go with your reading, it would have been less confusing calling it, literally, a "3" move" than a pile-in. And just to be clear, or at least clearer than GW, I'm not calling you on your interpretation, I'm calling on that Hood-forsaken wording You cannot go within 1" of an enemy unit through movement...Only through Charge, Pile In or Consolidate. But it is still quite the torturously written Stratagem. But yes, as I see it, the Strat works as follows: DP is activated in what is effectively Step 0 of the Fight Phase, as it happens at the "start of the fight phase." As such, after completing you Pile In move, you are now eligible to choose the same unit to fight with in Step 0 of the combat phase. Effectively the unit is treated as if it had been in combat since the previous turn. Step 3 of the Fight Sequence cannot happen, because Step 1, "choose an unit to fight with" never did. The unit that committed the Pile In has not yet been chosen to fight with, thus it cannot fight. The rules are thankfully extremely simple in this regard. As the rule can be activated in any Fight Phase, it can also be used on the opponents turn to potentially deny them a Charge, or even better, in a rare instance ESCAPE a charge from a worse enemy by Piling In towards a less terrible enemy unit. At any rate, by performing this "counter charge", we can deny the enemy unit any charge bonuses, but more importantly, if they are making multiple charges, make the unit using DP QUARANTEED to fight first through the Counter-Offensive Stratagem. A hefty use of 4 CP, but potentially game-turning if executed in a critical situation. This rule also means that we can effectively force multiple charges that would otherwise be impossible, through the combination of DP and The Emperor's Will, by allowing two units to get into combat when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. TEW is locked to Infantry units however, while, DP can be used on any of our units. The most notable usefulness of this stratagem seems to be on Bikers, which can get through the board and into the enemy ranks on the very first turn, with no threat of Overwatch... I feel that this Stratagem is the reason for why Tenacious Assault is so weak in comparison to its Night Lords equivalent. With DP, we can easily, EASILY cover the entire table and lock the entire front line of the enemy in combat. Imagine the Night Lords combat-lock stratagem in this instance. As I said before, this stratagem seems the most powerful for Bikers, especially in how it allows an unit of bikers to cross the entire length of the table and then get into combat without fear of overwatch. The attack bonus from charging is lost, but it is of little consequence when compared with the unit being forced to take an entire round of shooting instead. Scouts also benefit greatly, in that they can sacrifice themselves to keep an enemy unit locked down through this and Tenacious Assault, while being guaranteed to not take any losses along the way. It's also exceptionally powerful for our Characters, such as Marshall Law who might want to simply walk into combat instead of braving overwatch from the dangerous things he wants to charge. It's funny how we have so many Stratagems that show most worth on Scouts. All in all, this Stratagem is INSANELY powerful, if limited. It is essentially a weaker version of The Emperors Will, but without the limitations of that Stratagem. It also solidifies the Black Templars position of being the very best at GETTING into combats, if not necessarily the best at actually fighting them. Edited January 6, 2020 by Palmu Kyliadan 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Wouldn't it be a bit wasted on a character? I can't see a difference between the move and heroic intervention. (Excepting of course HI doesn't grant a 6" consolidate, and DP doesn't grant shock assault.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmu Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 It may be the difference between dying to an Imperial Knights overwatch or not getting overwatched as all. A do-or-die situation like that has happened to me at least, and having the ability to just walk into combat with the damn thing would have kept both my Marshal alive and won me that match. Not always great, limited in usefulness, but when the situation arises, incredibly strong. Oh, and, I guess our themes are getting into combat AND scouts. Because this makes THREE out of eight Stratagems that are most impactful for Scout units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Anywho, what exactly have we lost, which is objectively unfair compared to other successors. I'm thinking about writing to GW's FAQ team about some of the unfair aspects. I'm NOT advocating we get everything, I never expected the situation not to be changed. We were never going to get two doctrine bonuses, but just off the top of my head we lost the following things, which I think makes us lose out compared to the other supplements: (However, I don't own any of the other supplements, so I don't know for sure!) - fewer strats generally - the ability to double up on WL Traits - Special Issue Wargear - stratagem access to founder relics (accepting of course that we have our own unique list.) Is that it? - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 It may be the difference between dying to an Imperial Knights overwatch or not getting overwatched as all. A do-or-die situation like that has happened to me at least, and having the ability to just walk into combat with the damn thing would have kept both my Marshal alive and won me that match. Not always great, limited in usefulness, but when the situation arises, incredibly strong. Oh, and, I guess our themes are getting into combat AND scouts. Because this makes THREE out of eight Stratagems that are most impactful for Scout units. Is this a reply to my point about HI? Unless I'm being dense (possible with my rules knowledge) if you're in range to use Devout Push, couldn't your marshal simply heroically intervene for free and avoid overwatch anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmu Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Heroic Intervention can only be done in the enemy turn, no? Also, I've been crooning about how powerful Scout Bikers already are, and this pushes them into damn near an auto-include. It's REALLY hard to say 'no' to an unit that can just blaze 29" into the enemy ranks on the first turn of the game, likely with Crusaders Helm, +1 Attack and +5FnP on them to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 So be fair guys we have +2 Strategems avaliable to us via Vigilus so we actually have 10 strategems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Heroic Intervention can only be done in the enemy turn, no? Ah, yes. I think you're right. So, in that circumstance, when you're using it in your own turn, you're prettyuxh only doing it to avoid overwatch? Otherwise you'd charge if the enemy is only 4" away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecapn226 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Can someone explain the loss of a double WL trait? I seem to be missing what this means? We still get Hero of the Chapter from C:SM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtBlaster Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 With the imperial fists codex we could have two traits on a warlord, as long as one was from the IF supplement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 I suppose my question is whether that strat was unique to the IF? Or is it a common theme in all he supplements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornate individual Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Didn't get the 2 warlord trait either, but there's still field commander isn't there? Field commander isn't 2 traits on 1 warlord but still 2 traits. As far as getting as much as everyone else, what do you expect...all the other chapters get an actual supplement book, Templars - a few pages in faith and fury (and that's the templar supplement) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtBlaster Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Every other codex chapter can have 2 traits on one character, it was a copy paste between supplements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornate individual Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 ah, did not know that, haven't seen any of the other supplements. Didn't bother to buy the IF supplement cause I didn't think templars would get 2 supplements to use and I have to buy enough books as it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 I'm not sure why people are thinking you can deny a charge with this. It happens at the start of the fight phase, which happens after the charge phase. Hymnblade and Palmu 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmu Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Probably due to my colossal retardation. Hymnblade 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader7 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Interesting. I might be looking into an Impulsors or two now. Being able to move 14, disembark 3, move 6, advance d6 and "charge" 3 is insane. If we could put Aggressors inside we would really be cooking with something spicy. If they happen to advance and charge near a chaplain with Canticle of Hate and Field Commander we are looking at 14 + 3 + 6 + (1+d6) + 6 charge range ignoring overwatch. 31-36 inch charge range with an average of 33.5. We genestealers now boys. Combine this with 10 CCW scouts with advance and charge strat and we are looking at two fairly reliable turn 1 charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Anywho, what exactly have we lost, which is objectively unfair compared to other successors. I'm thinking about writing to GW's FAQ team about some of the unfair aspects. I'm NOT advocating we get everything, I never expected the situation not to be changed. We were never going to get two doctrine bonuses, but just off the top of my head we lost the following things, which I think makes us lose out compared to the other supplements: (However, I don't own any of the other supplements, so I don't know for sure!) - fewer strats generally - the ability to double up on WL Traits - Special Issue Wargear - stratagem access to founder relics (accepting of course that we have our own unique list.) Is that it? - to be honest... do you read the Special issue wargear? Nothing special there. But on principle you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 Anywho, what exactly have we lost, which is objectively unfair compared to other successors. I'm thinking about writing to GW's FAQ team about some of the unfair aspects. I'm NOT advocating we get everything, I never expected the situation not to be changed. We were never going to get two doctrine bonuses, but just off the top of my head we lost the following things, which I think makes us lose out compared to the other supplements: (However, I don't own any of the other supplements, so I don't know for sure!) - fewer strats generally - the ability to double up on WL Traits - Special Issue Wargear - stratagem access to founder relics (accepting of course that we have our own unique list.) Is that it? to be honest... do you read the Special issue wargear? Nothing special there. But on principle you are right. Personally, I agree on their utility. Also, I'm struggling at the moment with the sheer volume of pre-game CP spending options. Last game I spent too much before the game started and had next to none to deploy. But the principle is more likely to make the FAQ team think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 tomorrow I have a game (2250 points) against Black Legion - I play 3 Battallion and before the game starts I spend 8 CP for Relics and additional WL-Traits... for the rest of the game i have 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirJyo Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 We have the weakest troop choice in the SM library, both nephytes and initiates are overpriced for what they do. They aren't worth transporting and are too slow to walk, no primaris support. LRC strat is useless at the cost of an LRC, should at least include repulsors. Vigilus strats are less useful now that company veterans on bikes are in legends. Our super doctrine and tenacious assault are weak because of the infantry restriction. That being said I'm happy we have rules at all, but they do not compare to other supplements and feels like it was not made in tandem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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