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Should each of our legions have Chapter Master equivalents?


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#1
Bloody Legionnaire

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I've been playing Chaos and following Chaos fluff since 2015 and I've been in the hobby since 2012. I only thought about it today that with some exceptions the majority of our factions in the CSM codex do not have big named characters who are leading the various legions Is that something you would appreciate having or think CSM could benefit from? 


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#2
Drudge Dreadnought

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It'd be nice if we got a strat to upgrade a Chaos Lord to full re-rolls aura at least.

 

What we really need is a source of re-roll 1's to wound for regular infantry. Its part of why Chaos shooting is so far behind loyalist. Even if it was restricted to small arms.


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#3
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I think it would be great if there were 1-3 characters for each of the traitor legions. They don't necessarily need to be Chapter Master equivalents, though.

The challenge is in getting GW to make the models. msn-wink.gif
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#4
Drudge Dreadnought

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I think it would be great if there were 1-3 characters for each of the traitor legions. They don't necessarily need to be Chapter Master equivalents, though.

The challenge is in getting GW to make the models. msn-wink.gif

 

It'd be nice to get rules and models for higher ranked characters like Eidolon, Kor Phaeron, Erebus, etc.


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#5
MasterDeath

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Should we get Special Chars next to Abbadon and the Cult Legion Chars? Yes, they even mentioned Kor Phaeron in F&F, why no model?

 

Should we get a normal Char with all reroll aura? Not necessarily. I dont want CSM to be Spiky Marines. I want them to be their own thing. Maybe reroll all Wounds. Maybe an additional shooting aura (like +1 shot to all guns). Something that is of similar value without being a carbon copy. 



#6
Closet Skeleton

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No.

 

The Black Legion is the only Traitor legion to have a leader, then maybe you have Huron Blackheart who is a former chapter master. The old Traitor Legions either still have a primarch and/or are splintered too much. Even organized legions like the World Bearers have a council rather than any single primarch's deputy.

 

A Chaos Lord is supposed to be the leader of a warband, the ability to take more than one has already diminished them enough without having to add an extra category of super chaos lord. More special characters sure but there's no rank above chaos lord for them to have.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 08 January 2020 - 09:45 AM.


#7
Kythnos

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Maybe the question should be, whether Chaos Lords should be in par with chapter masters, but that is a difficult one, since chaos warlords vary a lot more in power and influence than chapter masters do. So putting them all on par with each other would not be fitting for chapter masters either.

Edited by Kythnos, 08 January 2020 - 11:33 AM.

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#8
Wayniac

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Maybe the question should be, whether Chaos Lords should be in par with chapter masters, but that is a difficult one, since chaos warlords vary a lot more in power and influence than chapter masters do. So putting them all on par with each other would not be fitting for chapter masters either.

I mean the easy solution here would have been to make two sets of stats, rather than have Chapter Master be part of the terrible CP/stratagem system.  Like it used to be in the old days when you could have a "Chaos Lieutenant" and a "Chaos Lord" that cost different points and had different stats.


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#9
TrawlingCleaner

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Each legion should not get Chapter Master equivilants, IMO they're bad for the game in the quantity that they're available. I do however think that each Legion should get their own special character much the smae way they did with the new SM suppliments, with the majority of the Characters doing something different and unique, I don't think GW will though.


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#10
Dhar'Neth

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I think Chaos Space Marines should have similiar options as loyalists. At least some of the Legions (Word Bearers) and most Warbands (sometimes larger than chapters) follow single Warlord. Legion Command might be divided internally, but not on a tabletop level.


Edited by Dhar'Neth, 08 January 2020 - 01:39 PM.

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#11
TrawlingCleaner

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I think Chaos Space Marines should have similiar options as loyalists. At least some of the Legions (Word Bearers) and most Warbands (sometimes larger than chapters) follow single Warlord. Legion Command might be divided internally, but not on a tabletop level.

Similar yes, identical no. Just becuase both wear power armour doesn't mean they should do the same things, things like the lord of contagion for DG are really cool where they do something entirely different to SM captains rather than being a slightly different shade/more spikey. Exalted Champions are really cool examples that CSM currently have and can really do work. I like where GW are going atm with more emphasis on mutations and daemon engines rather than just more spikes and skulls


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#12
Kain Mor

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I think Chaos Space Marines should have similiar options as loyalists. At least some of the Legions (Word Bearers) and most Warbands (sometimes larger than chapters) follow single Warlord. Legion Command might be divided internally, but not on a tabletop level.

Similar yes, identical no. Just becuase both wear power armour doesn't mean they should do the same things, things like the lord of contagion for DG are really cool where they do something entirely different to SM captains rather than being a slightly different shade/more spikey. Exalted Champions are really cool examples that CSM currently have and can really do work. I like where GW are going atm with more emphasis on mutations and daemon engines rather than just more spikes and skulls

Some legions actively resist the changes of chaos, and see warp mutations and working with daemons as a sign of weakness. I, for one, would like to see more options as far as parity with nuMarines than “run disco lords.”
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#13
Closet Skeleton

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Maybe the question should be, whether Chaos Lords should be in par with chapter masters, but that is a difficult one, since chaos warlords vary a lot more in power and influence than chapter masters do. So putting them all on par with each other would not be fitting for chapter masters either.

I mean the easy solution here would have been to make two sets of stats, rather than have Chapter Master be part of the terrible CP/stratagem system.  Like it used to be in the old days when you could have a "Chaos Lieutenant" and a "Chaos Lord" that cost different points and had different stats.

 

 

Exalted Champions are Chaos Lieutenants. In 2nd ed you had to take a single chaos lord but could take extra Exalted Champions who were basically the same as lords.



#14
TrawlingCleaner

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I think Chaos Space Marines should have similiar options as loyalists. At least some of the Legions (Word Bearers) and most Warbands (sometimes larger than chapters) follow single Warlord. Legion Command might be divided internally, but not on a tabletop level.

Similar yes, identical no. Just becuase both wear power armour doesn't mean they should do the same things, things like the lord of contagion for DG are really cool where they do something entirely different to SM captains rather than being a slightly different shade/more spikey. Exalted Champions are really cool examples that CSM currently have and can really do work. I like where GW are going atm with more emphasis on mutations and daemon engines rather than just more spikes and skulls

Some legions actively resist the changes of chaos, and see warp mutations and working with daemons as a sign of weakness. I, for one, would like to see more options as far as parity with nuMarines than “run disco lords.”

 

To each their own for sure, people like different things nought wrong with that. For me I can't think of anything more boring that they could do to the chaos range than parity to nuMarines in terms of Aesthetic and models. That would be the 6th variation of marine codex that does nothing different or better than any of the others. For me Chaos is weird and wacky and enirely horrendous even when compared to the Imperium. They've thrown off their shackles and are embracing the weird side of 40k, do away with the majority of the old tech and make some of your own.

 

Balance wise, you're totally right every codex needs to be brought in line with nuMarines


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#15
Putrid Choir

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I think Chaos Space Marines should have similiar options as loyalists. At least some of the Legions (Word Bearers) and most Warbands (sometimes larger than chapters) follow single Warlord. Legion Command might be divided internally, but not on a tabletop level.

Similar yes, identical no. Just becuase both wear power armour doesn't mean they should do the same things, things like the lord of contagion for DG are really cool where they do something entirely different to SM captains rather than being a slightly different shade/more spikey. Exalted Champions are really cool examples that CSM currently have and can really do work. I like where GW are going atm with more emphasis on mutations and daemon engines rather than just more spikes and skulls

Except lords of contagion suck. That's why I rather have identical over similar. I think chaos players that compare them to loyalist always have people jumping at them saying "I don't want spikey space marines". I don't think anybody wants 100% copy with spikes, they just want balance. The lord of contagion's aura sucks. He is a slow moving beat stick with no ranged and terrible support. You could easily make a loyalist jump pack captain or terminator captain just as good if not better melee unit with better move for less points that provides a useful aura. Captains/lords all get 4++ anyways so him having cata term armor just slows his movement down for no benefit. He should be 3++ IMO. All the toys chaos tend to get that aren't spikey marines are melee focused (like the LoC), and melee sucks in 8th compared to ranged. That's where I get the disconnect. They look cool, fit the fluff, but tend to be worse than the loyalist stuff.

Yes chaos needs some useful characters. Our two primarchs are friggin' primarchs(!) of their Legions that ascended to daemonhood and they STILL only give reroll 1's to hit, not all failed hits... A chapter master equivalent would be very welcomed by every chaos player in my group.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 09 January 2020 - 05:25 AM.

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#16
Sonoftherubric21

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"chapter master equiv"? not necessarily.

Unique Legion Character? *DEFINITELY* 

 

Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and the Word Bearers all deserve one that befits their legion heritage. 

 

Some form of raptor lord/chainglaive lord, an infiltrator/Assassin character, a Siege master, and a Mega-apostle should all be on the table as characters in the same vein as what the loyalists received for their respective Chapters. 

 

This would give far more variety, though I agree with some of the above when referring to Chaos needing a strat or something for various auras. 


Edited by Sonoftherubric21, 09 January 2020 - 03:59 AM.

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#17
Irate Khornate

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Each legion needs their own special character first. They also need to be actually viable, unlike the last two named characters chaos has receivedwhich were Mallex and Harkon.
(Admittedly nothing wrong with Mallex, just nothing going for him.)

From there we could definitely benefit from stratagems that are the equivalent of those provided to SM in PA2 Marine buff boogaloo.

Third, how about some make your own Warband traits like the prequel and sequel books got.

Final small note, a revisitation of FW chaos characters.
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#18
Putrid Choir

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Mallex is nice, he has the exact same stats/weapons as a chaos lord with thunderhammer and plasma pistol, but is only 102tps vs. 119pts. But black legion only and can't take a jump pack.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 09 January 2020 - 05:16 AM.


#19
Mallios

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Mallex is nice, he has the exact same stats/weapons as a chaos lord with thunderhammer and plasma pistol, but is only 102tps vs. 119pts. But black legion only and can't take a jump pack.

I think he also loses out on grenades, fyi.

#20
Putrid Choir

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Mallex is nice, he has the exact same stats/weapons as a chaos lord with thunderhammer and plasma pistol, but is only 102tps vs. 119pts. But black legion only and can't take a jump pack.

I think he also loses out on grenades, fyi.

That's true. I've never thrown a grenade with a lord before though so it slipped past my mind. Also can't take relics and what not.

#21
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It's a running joke at my local game store that Chaos Marines are just Space Marines with worse rules. Obviously, that's not exactly right, but it's not completely wrong either. Re-roll all hits is a HUGE improvement on re-roll 1s, even as BS3, that's twice as many dice to re-roll and with BS4 vehicles, it's triple. A SM Lt.'s re-roll wounds of 1 for both shooting AND melee is a huge advantage, even over re-roll all melee wounds when you consider an Exalted Champ is stuck footslogging and may not get there. Maybe if you had the option of giving him better movement or deepstrike, like SMs have. Maybe a better re-roll aura on DPs, even if just for <LEGION> units would be great. I do agree that Primarchs at the very least should have better re-rolls.

A unique character for each legion would be great, I was honestly pretty annoyed we didn't get supplements that added one like SMs got. Alternative to a standard upgrade strategem on Lords, maybe a unique upgrade for individual legions would be nice.

I dont want CSM to be a mirror of SM, but the baseline should be mirrored in my opinion. I get that GW wants to push Chaos towards melee, but everytime we make it work they nerf it. I miss being able to warp-time from deepstrike.
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#22
Lucerne

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Alpha Legion called- something about sniper rifles and headhunters?

 

Meanwhile Iron Warriors need artillery and breachers...


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#23
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No more named characters. Give the option to make your own Lord with a variety of gear, traits and whatnot to choose from. Kind of like the Character Design Rules but with a point system attached.

They won't do this though if there's no kit to provide said options.
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#24
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Alpha Legion could have one, after all they still have "Alpharius" running around... :)
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#25
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I think Chaos Space Marines should have similiar options as loyalists. At least some of the Legions (Word Bearers) and most Warbands (sometimes larger than chapters) follow single Warlord. Legion Command might be divided internally, but not on a tabletop level.

Similar yes, identical no. Just becuase both wear power armour doesn't mean they should do the same things, things like the lord of contagion for DG are really cool where they do something entirely different to SM captains rather than being a slightly different shade/more spikey. Exalted Champions are really cool examples that CSM currently have and can really do work. I like where GW are going atm with more emphasis on mutations and daemon engines rather than just more spikes and skulls
Except lords of contagion suck. That's why I rather have identical over similar. I think chaos players that compare them to loyalist always have people jumping at them saying "I don't want spikey space marines". I don't think anybody wants 100% copy with spikes, they just want balance. The lord of contagion's aura sucks. He is a slow moving beat stick with no ranged and terrible support. You could easily make a loyalist jump pack captain or terminator captain just as good if not better melee unit with better move for less points that provides a useful aura. Captains/lords all get 4++ anyways so him having cata term armor just slows his movement down for no benefit. He should be 3++ IMO. All the toys chaos tend to get that aren't spikey marines are melee focused (like the LoC), and melee sucks in 8th compared to ranged. That's where I get the disconnect. They look cool, fit the fluff, but tend to be worse than the loyalist stuff.

Yes chaos needs some useful characters. Our two primarchs are friggin' primarchs(!) of their Legions that ascended to daemonhood and they STILL only give reroll 1's to hit, not all failed hits... A chapter master equivalent would be very welcomed by every chaos player in my group.
I Agree with the Lord Of Contagion chat, he's :cusse, all the death Guard characters are I stick to Demon Princes. The fact that Lord's & sorcererers loose FNP is an absolute disgrace imo death guards characters are unfortunately too slow and auras are rubish, the two elite grenade buffers are cool, but even the surgeon is rubbish 3" range & reroll 1s meh. Rant over

There should be more equivalency if GW are gonna continue to draw comparisons I think a warlord with extra rule you pay CP isn't uncalled for warbands as stated vary wildly done being smaller but some being faaaaaar larger than a chapter so I think a warlord of chaos buff should be a thing. Will never be better than pure rerolls though no matter what


Space Marines have got masters of the chapter now too remember which alows all sorts of upgrades for every character they have soooo ....

Edited by Guzzlrr, 10 January 2020 - 10:42 PM.

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