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Should each of our legions have Chapter Master equivalents?


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#26
Bloody Legionnaire

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I guess I should have made the title a little different, everyone is really hung up on the fact that I used "chapter master."

My line of thinking was Abbadon, Khârn, Typhus, and Ahriman, to their respective legions. I feel like all legions should have a named character.

I am completely not on board with anyone who says "well I don't want my bad guy marines to be just like good guy marines with spikes." Okay, I get it, there is plenty about chaos that should create some distinction.. however, that aside, CHAOS SPACE MARINES ARE STILL SPACE MARINES! 

 

Beyond the fact that we do still play "space marines" is the fact that some of the Chaos forces are still legions and have remnants from the Horus Heresy still intact. Do people who play Warhammer 30k/AoD complain about the fact their "bad guy" Marines aren't differentiated enough from "good guy" space marines? Not really.. (yes I know there are some). I am in no way advocating for Chaos to be just like spikey loyalist but I do believe there should be more similarity than I think many of you are willing to admit. We SHOULD have  many of the capabilities our loyalist counterparts have. 


Edited by Bloody Legionnaire, 12 January 2020 - 02:06 AM.

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#27
MasterDeath

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Nobody complains about 30K Loyalists and Followers-of-the-false-Emperor being very similar, because these dont have a division between them caused by a civil war spanning over 10 000 Years. They dont have the doctrinary division caused by the Codex Astartes. They dont have the division of Millenia of daemonic influence. (be it by cooperating with daemons or just using them)

 

What CSM and SM should have in common:

- Equipment that was available in 30K

- Example: Bolter, Power Armor, Chaisnword, Rhino, Predator, Land Raider, the old stuff.

 

And thats about it.

 

To your question: Yes, it would be nice if every Legion had a Unique Char. But should these commonly hand out rerolls to hit? I think they should not. A Chaos Lord is not neccessarily the best Leader, but probably the best Fighter, most exalted by the Gods or simply the best Politician (for lack of a better word). So give them something thats fits this bill.


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#28
Irate Khornate

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The legions honestly should be able to take all the equivalents, as many of them are still alive and leading.

Renegades should also be able to take equivalents as well since many of them are lead by former equivalents.

Unfortunately I know I got off topic, since this is just for the legions and not CSM as a whole.

Edited by Irate Khornate, 12 January 2020 - 03:35 PM.

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#29
Bloody Legionnaire

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Not off topic at all, this is for all of CSM not just legions. I completely agree with you



#30
Irate Khornate

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Not off topic at all, this is for all of CSM not just legions. I completely agree with you


The two that absolutely stand out for me have to be Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs for Renegades. Both are lead by a Former Chapter Master, but the later also has a canon Master of the Forge, Chief Apothecary, and Master Sorcerer. Yet we get no way to represent this on the tabletop unless you play them as their pre-Badab War incarnation.

For the legions Eidolon is still alive for the Emperor's Children. Erebus and Kor Phaeron are still alive, with Kor becoming highly active once again. Alpha Legion I could see Dynat coming back.

How to put it, I wouldn't be as adamant about this if PA2 hadn't gave legions certain abilities like Word Bearers getting a member of the Dark Council, or Alpha Legion being able to take a second Warlord for them to be sub-par compared to what SM already had, or were given in the same exact book. I'm all for making the armies play and feel different, but when you give one army something and then give their spiky cousins a worse/limited version instead of their own unique thing it's a bit of a slap in the face.

Anyway I'll stop ranting.
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#31
Putrid Choir

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It's kind of stupid at this point. Our Sorcerer is the same points and stats as a Librarian, but they get the free psychic hood... We need some balance. Maybe not a chapter master but like my earlier post mentioned, having our primarchs only give reroll 1's at this point is just insulting.
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#32
BrainFireBob

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Chaos needs movement options, not a CM equivalent. Bikes and jump packs for Exalted Champs, Apostles.

Edit: And formations to include both on keywords.

Editv2: And cataphractii, because aesthetic.

Edited by BrainFireBob, 13 January 2020 - 04:50 AM.

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#33
Panzer

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It would be nice to have a named character for every legion, yes.

A chapter master equivalent though? Nah, the legions are too split for that. Plus CSM already have Daemon Princes as "better than Lord" HQ.


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#34
Juggernut

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Yes, chaos should have equivalents, even if they’re just conceptual equivalents. Silly, from my perspective, is the desire to limit the power of our faction willingly (as if we had any choice). Make oneself weaker willingly if that's your thing, don’t limit the faction based on nonsense fluff interpretations.
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#35
Panzer

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Yes, chaos should have equivalents, even if they’re just conceptual equivalents. Silly, from my perspective, is the desire to limit the power of our faction willingly (as if we had any choice). Make oneself weaker willingly if that's your thing, don’t limit the faction based on nonsense fluff interpretations.

 

That makes no sense. If not based on fluff interpretations how else should GW decide what to give each faction. You don't see loyalists crying for Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs etc either because there simply aren't such equivalents for them apart from some super special characters like Mephiston or the Sanguinor if at all.

So I'd rather say "don't add nonsense options to the faction based on crunch wishlisting".


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#36
MasterDeath

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I my opinion the problem revolves around a simple thing: Sale numbers. If GW wants something to sell well, add a hint of Space Marines to it. Faith and Fury is a good example. Rules for all the Legions and Black Templars, not really the most popular Chapter, so how do we make it more likely to sell to a profit? Add a bunch of non-essential no-less powerful SM options on top. So basically the SM bunch has to carry our sorry CSM carcass around, so GW can make a profit of the book.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying "evil GW, only money grabbing". They are a company and they need to make their money, so we can play with our toys. But as long as the sales are so heavily on the SM side, SM will always have more and earlier.

Will we get our rebalance? Sure, some day. But until then, the SM will have gotten even more toys, options and rules and so we start at the same point again. For storytellers like me, thats less of a problem compared to the competitive people. 


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#37
Putrid Choir

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Yes, chaos should have equivalents, even if they’re just conceptual equivalents. Silly, from my perspective, is the desire to limit the power of our faction willingly (as if we had any choice). Make oneself weaker willingly if that's your thing, don’t limit the faction based on nonsense fluff interpretations.


That makes no sense. If not based on fluff interpretations how else should GW decide what to give each faction. You don't see loyalists crying for Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs etc either because there simply aren't such equivalents for them apart from some super special characters like Mephiston or the Sanguinor if at all.
So I'd rather say "don't add nonsense options to the faction based on crunch wishlisting".

And that's your opinion. I'm with Juggernut, I rather have balance than follow the fluff strictly. We have a more expensive option of a Daemon Prince but they have more options in general with better aura's / synergy, cheaper HQ's like Lieutenants and more characters. I don't think Daemon prince with wings just had a price drop because they are better, usually it means they are not pulling their weight. A chapter master like character is not "nonsense options based on crunch wishlisting". A chapter master is only the head of 1,000 space marines. Chaos warbands can't number that high and have a strong central leader? Typhus isn't to the Death Guard what Calgar is to the ultra's?

#38
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It seems to me that a sizable portion of why space marines sell so well is BECAUSE they have better rules and modeling support. At some point most people will end up playing some form of loyalist marines, even if just casual. It makes sense, why wouldn't you? They get new rules so often, they have doctrines, full supplements, superior baseline characters (I'm going to say it). Then, they have kits with power armor combi-weapons you dont have to kit bash, plenty of thunder hammers, terminators with thunder hammers, they have storm storm shields, more than 1 model for their HQ choices, and I would hazard a guess that they dont throttle the count of desired weapons as badly as they do with the CSM line (ie: chainaxes and reaper chain cannons). I dont think GW puts rules for SM everywhere purely because they know it will sell, I think SMs sell because they have the best support for mechanics and models in the game. GW is making a self-fulfilling prophecy here.
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#39
Doom Herald

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I saw someone mention Renegades and that is something else to consider. Let's look at Crimson Slaughter. When they got rules as a chaos warband, their characters got WORSE than their baseline loyalist counter-part. Kranon was a chapter master, now he's the rules equivalent of a captain. Draznicht was a first captain, now he's the equivalent of a veteran sergeant.

IF loyalist marines were worse stat-wise, the massively more beneficial auras would be fine. That is just not the case though. Saying that there is no way that a chaos lord could be a good enough leader to equate to a chapter master just doesn't make sense, but for the sake of argument let's say it does, a Daemon Prince should be. He's the personification of the ultimate reward and the will of the gods (if your into chaos as a religion or even reward system) it should be truly inspiring or terrifying to fight alongside one. You should work harder in hope's of reward or in fear of punishment.

Edited by Doom Herald, 13 January 2020 - 05:19 PM.

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#40
Putrid Choir

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Amen Doom Herald!

#41
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Respectfully, people saying that Chaos shouldn't get a "Chapter Master equivalent" are missing the point. Lore-wise, there is nothing special about a Chapter Master. Captains don't suddenly become better leaders the moment they get promoted and the Imperium doesn't have a monopoly on talented leaders. CSM should have an equivalent, because occasionally Chaos Lords & Princes really do become a big deal. They may not possess a formal rank, their power might be ephemeral, but it doesn't make it any less real. Some kind of 2CP strat to upgrade a Lord or DP to a "Warmaster" or "Exalted Lord" - the name isn't important - and which gives some kind of upgraded ability is totally justifiable both in-game and in-universe. The caveat? You can't use this stratagem if Abaddon is in the force, and it's not going to give you a leader as good as him. And nor should it.

 

Now if you want to argue "no" because you don't just want abilities being copy and pasted, effectively given to us as scraps? That's a fair argument. But stating that we shouldn't get some kind of equivalent just because "we don't have Chapter Masters" isn't saying much because the ranks & options we have on the tabletop barely reflect the lore at all as is. Such is the nature of Chaos.

 

No.

 

The Black Legion is the only Traitor legion to have a leader, then maybe you have Huron Blackheart who is a former chapter master. The old Traitor Legions either still have a primarch and/or are splintered too much. Even organized legions like the World Bearers have a council rather than any single primarch's deputy.

 

A Chaos Lord is supposed to be the leader of a warband, the ability to take more than one has already diminished them enough without having to add an extra category of super chaos lord. More special characters sure but there's no rank above chaos lord for them to have.

 

A "Chaos Lord" isn't a formal rank to begin with. Some might rule a dozen marines, while others may rise to dominate dozens of warbands with dozens of lesser Lords under their command, and these pseudo-Warmasters rise & fall; Abaddon is the most powerful by an order of magnitude but others have also led Black Crusades out of the Eye. There is plenty of justification to have a stratagem upgrading a Chaos Lord to a pseudo-Chapter Master for this reason alone. It doesn't need to be a formal rank, just a reflection of their standing & power.


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#42
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How do you mean "Chapter Master equivalents?"

If you mean in terms of fluff, absolutely not.

If you mean in terms of mechanics, someone who can go toe to toe with a Chapter Master? Maybe, however, that is as much an issue over relics and just how busted Space Marines are at the moment.

If you mean in terms of emphasising each Legion or whether they're a "mongrel" warband or something else, I would like that. For example; Warsmith (Iron Warriors), Harrowmaster (Alpha Legion), Flaymaster (Night Lords) to name a few are unique Leader designations for each faction. This theoretically could be your "Chapter Master" upgrade along with others as they've been used extensively pre and post Heresy.

More generally though, I don't really want all the upgrades/buffs of Space Marines, the inherent ones like transhuman physiology would be nice as they make sense, but I want Chaos to be their own thing. I want something different to represent their cults of personality and more selfish and self serving nature. The idea behind Space Marines is they work together as a cohesive force, becoming a force multiplier, Chaos is less this and more personal gain. I want that emphasised. I don't want disproportionate power though like it is now.


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#43
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What I'd rather have is a way to promote a standard Character to something better. Like make a Chaos Lord a Chaos Warlord, with better stats, abilities and equipment.

 

Warlord Traits kind of do this, but it's just the same model with a new ability. A Nurgle Chaos Lord is the same as a Slaanesh Chaos Lord, and that just doesn't do it for me.



#44
Closet Skeleton

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A chapter master like character is not "nonsense options based on crunch wishlisting". A chapter master is only the head of 1,000 space marines. Chaos warbands can't number that high and have a strong central leader? Typhus isn't to the Death Guard what Calgar is to the ultra's?

 

 

Typhus isn't to the Death Guard at all what Calgar is to Ultramarines. Typhus controls way more marines than Calgar but every last Ultramarine answers to Calgar while 6/7 Deathguard have no interest in any authority Typhus claims to have and many of the Deathguard allegedly under Typhus in the command structure in practice only respect that as much as they want to or fear the consequences for not doing so.

 

If a Death Guard lord had the opportunity to backstab Typhus and take his place they would, if one of Calgar's captains tried to stage a coup then even if Calgar died that Captain would have ruined any chance of ever having a career path in the Ultramarines ever again.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 15 January 2020 - 03:27 PM.


#45
Putrid Choir

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A chapter master like character is not "nonsense options based on crunch wishlisting". A chapter master is only the head of 1,000 space marines. Chaos warbands can't number that high and have a strong central leader? Typhus isn't to the Death Guard what Calgar is to the ultra's?


Typhus isn't to the Death Guard at all what Calgar is to Ultramarines. Typhus controls way more marines than Calgar but every last Ultramarine answers to Calgar while 6/7 Deathguard have no interest in any authority Typhus claims to have and many of the Deathguard allegedly under Typhus in the command structure in practice only respect that as much as they want to or fear the consequences for not doing so.

If a Death Guard lord had the opportunity to backstab Typhus and take his place they would, if one of Calgar's captains tried to stage a coup then even if Calgar died that Captain would have ruined any chance of ever having a career path in the Ultramarines ever again.

Really so during the Heresy those books that mentioned Typhus had control of over half the legion while Mortarion was struggling with the smaller fleet were just steam and mirrors? You're not going to convince me. Yeah chaos rules out of fear not respect so there's always the back stabbing and power struggles but again if the captain of 1,000 marines is a chapter master then chaos would more than likely have their own equivalent...

#46
Lucerne

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Lorewise there absolutely are Chaotic strategists and planners- even Slaanesh, of all things, has fluff for masterful strategists that implies they're better at it than everyone else.

 

So what we have is a case of the turncoats that sold their souls for power in lore not having power in gameplay, having none of the options the ancient traitors should have in gameplay, not particularly having enough to justify using them to represent the lore for turncoats in gameplay...

 

The only CSM the codex entries currently represent accurately are the red corsairs- and that's because the red corsairs are a warband of unfiltered cannon fodder that have a lot of members objectively worse than loyalists! And even there they're missing the chaos apothecaries and anything higher in the food chain than aspiring champions, AND all their cannon fodder to boot.

 

If you're not playing a daemon-heavy army, the question is why not use loyalist rules to represent traitor marines? Certainly not for fluff accuracy.

 

 

 

How do you mean "Chapter Master equivalents?"

If you mean in terms of fluff, absolutely not.

If you mean in terms of mechanics, someone who can go toe to toe with a Chapter Master? Maybe, however, that is as much an issue over relics and just how busted Space Marines are at the moment.

If you mean in terms of emphasising each Legion or whether they're a "mongrel" warband or something else, I would like that. For example; Warsmith (Iron Warriors), Harrowmaster (Alpha Legion), Flaymaster (Night Lords) to name a few are unique Leader designations for each faction. This theoretically could be your "Chapter Master" upgrade along with others as they've been used extensively pre and post Heresy.

More generally though, I don't really want all the upgrades/buffs of Space Marines, the inherent ones like transhuman physiology would be nice as they make sense, but I want Chaos to be their own thing. I want something different to represent their cults of personality and more selfish and self serving nature. The idea behind Space Marines is they work together as a cohesive force, becoming a force multiplier, Chaos is less this and more personal gain. I want that emphasised. I don't want disproportionate power though like it is now.

Iron Warriors are relatively disciplined, Word Bearers are supposed to be fanatical to an exceptional degree, and Alpha Legion are infamous for being disciplined.


Edited by Lucerne, 16 January 2020 - 01:07 AM.

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#47
Putrid Choir

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@Iron_Within I'm with you if different could be equal in terms of power, but it never is. Ours is less synergy and more melee which is the complete wrong direction in 8th edition which is all about rerolls and ranged shooting, something loyalist circle around chaos in spades. I would want to be different, but I rather have balance, and GW has failed to do that in my eyes.

#48
Lucerne

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I mean, the funny thing is it's not even lore accurate for, say, the Iron Warriors to be bad at shooting. Or the guys that invented Seeker squads and perfected the- even modern AL lore makes a point of them using assassins and snipers.


Edited by Lucerne, 16 January 2020 - 01:08 AM.

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"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

"Agents of stealth and misrule they may be, but when the Alpha Legion unleash their martial might, worlds shake at their tread."


#49
Putrid Choir

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Iron Warriors are relatively disciplined, Word Bearers are supposed to be fanatical to an exception degree, and Alpha Legion are infamous for being disciplined.


Death Guard still function as a legion as well which is why they were able to wage the plague wars so efficiently. They have their own special lords too but they suck bad. Melee only, cata armor so less movement but still only 4++ which ALL lords get anyways, and the crappiest aura I've seen in the game. Which again emphasizes the different is worse for us. If I'm going to have worse units I rather just have the same.
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#50
Lucerne

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Iron Warriors are relatively disciplined, Word Bearers are supposed to be fanatical to an exception degree, and Alpha Legion are infamous for being disciplined.


Death Guard still function as a legion as well which is why they were able to wage the plague wars so efficiently. They have their own special lords too but they suck bad. Melee only, cata armor so less movement but still only 4++ which ALL lords get anyways, and the crappiest aura I've seen in the game. Which again emphasizes the different is worse for us. If I'm going to have worse units I rather just have the same.

 

I mean the DGuard not having special organization beyond numbers is fine in that they are a cult legion- and better off than the TSons in terms of lore accuracy with options- but yeah the Lords may need tweaking.


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"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

"Agents of stealth and misrule they may be, but when the Alpha Legion unleash their martial might, worlds shake at their tread."





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