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Should each of our legions have Chapter Master equivalents?


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#51
Irate Khornate

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If I may, I think we might also be suffering from special rules being borrowed from AOS along with limited/ lack of equivalents. To the point I'm halfway positive that the Master of Executions probably started as a Sigmar model.

#52
Putrid Choir

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If I may, I think we might also be suffering from special rules being borrowed from AOS along with limited/ lack of equivalents. To the point I'm halfway positive that the Master of Executions probably started as a Sigmar model.


I know. Like that's what chaos needed when he came out, a slow moving melee beat stick character... Pretty sure we already have lords, exalted champions, Daemon princes and disco lords. Would have been nice if chaos got a ranged character, maybe even one with character sniping abilities. But that goes against keeping chaos melee and weak haha.

#53
Kain Mor

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If the Master of Executions started out as a Sigmar model I’m not actually made he came to 40k instead, because for the last few games he’s about the only thing I have that’s done anything useful.

#54
Guzzlrr

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How do you mean "Chapter Master equivalents?"

If you mean in terms of fluff, absolutely not.

If you mean in terms of mechanics, someone who can go toe to toe with a Chapter Master? Maybe, however, that is as much an issue over relics and just how busted Space Marines are at the moment.

If you mean in terms of emphasising each Legion or whether they're a "mongrel" warband or something else, I would like that. For example; Warsmith (Iron Warriors), Harrowmaster (Alpha Legion), Flaymaster (Night Lords) to name a few are unique Leader designations for each faction. This theoretically could be your "Chapter Master" upgrade along with others as they've been used extensively pre and post Heresy.

More generally though, I don't really want all the upgrades/buffs of Space Marines, the inherent ones like transhuman physiology would be nice as they make sense, but I want Chaos to be their own thing. I want something different to represent their cults of personality and more selfish and self serving nature. The idea behind Space Marines is they work together as a cohesive force, becoming a force multiplier, Chaos is less this and more personal gain. I want that emphasised. I don't want disproportionate power though like it is now.

Chapters existed inside of legions didnt they ?

 

Im sure they did.  Even if its in terms of : no because The Codex, they Fought As the legiones astartes which you could argue is Just as complicated as the Codex.

the codex was made to break up the power of the Legions.

 

 Pre-heresy some of these marines ruled over larger contingents of marines than a chapter. Much larger and many still do. there are many arguments for a Leader of the warband ability and to say no Just because marines are more disciplined, compared to what ? many CSM still are Disciplined and still follow even a basic Hierarchy of Lords and Commanders Hell some legions still even function as they did Pre heresy. 

 

Im not saying Chaos should be better (because they well should in terms of those rules tongue.png) but there are definitely arguments for this sort of up-gradable rule and i really dont understand why anyone would argue against it.

 

 

It would be awesome If it were Like Warsmith : Reroll to hit when units within 6" remained stationary, some sort of second warlord trait would be awesome, doesn't  necessarily need to be Rerolls at all, using that as an example. CSM seem to have more CC oriented Abilities so even if it was Rerolls in CC or extra attacks what ever you get the jest  


Edited by Guzzlrr, 16 January 2020 - 09:14 AM.

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#55
Doom Herald

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We do have re-roll hits with the Dark Apostle (although in this case we were better off with old Apostles which didn't require a roll to use it) and re-roll cc wounds with the Exalted Champion. The problem with this is that neither can be upgraded beyond 6" movement or given deepstrike. Once again, loyalist versions can. This means that in order to be effectively utilized, we MUST use transports or face the very real possibility of being shot down before we reach melee range. Even in a transport, we still face a good possibility of being shot down, especially against shootier armies which is basicly everyone. This is significantly due to the fact that other factions can re-roll more than ones to hit in shooting and can re-roll atleast some wound rolls in shooting. We can do neither.

If CSM is going to be balanced against SM, we need to start with basic rules being balanced. Troop marines and Lords/Captains. The only loyalist marines I ever played were GK (probably in 5th), so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen even at the tac marine level SM have way more going for them.

SM:
1) Combat Squads
2) Doctrines
3) And They Shall Know No Fear

CSM:
1) Death to the False Emperor [that's it]

With the exception of Combat squads, this caries over to the character level.

With other characters this discrepancy is worse with chaplains/apostles being the worst. At the very least, chaos should have the advantage here, we are literally getting blessings from gods rather than giving rousing words. Chaplains have terminator and jump pack options, giving them greater mobility with either movement or deepstrike. Apostles do not. Chaplains have the option of chanting multiple litanies. Apostles, other than Word Bearers, do not.

Gearing Chaos towards melee is understandable, if we have a reliable way to get there that doesn't require eating further into our points to compete with something that's been given a clear edge. Doing this is easy.

1) Give CSM access to terminator armor and jump packs on Apostles and Exalted Champions. GW says they dont want rules for models without kits, but come on... we're Chaos Marines. We've been a clear deviation from that rule for all of 8th. If it really does bother them that much, they can make a new kit for Terminator Apostle/Exalted Champion with 2 different heads and a Crozius in place of the sorcerer's staff. Then, they can make a new kit for a CSM jump character or even a multi-part kit for basic CSM characters with a jump pack option. Hell, they could make a Chosen kit with a couple special heads and 1 jump pack option and we could use the kit for either Chosen, jump characters, or unit champions.

2) Give Marks of Chaos an associated rule as a doctrine counterpart. You dont even have to give multiples to each mark. The fact that you can have Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh units all in the same dettachment makes up for the fact that you can change doctrines mid-game for loyalists.

3) Give a character upgrade strategem to CSM. It doesn't have to be re-roll all hits. It could be something like a low-odds FNP aura to show his followers hold on out of spite. Ideally, a unique one could be given to each Legion.

4) Give CSM "...Know No Fear" or a fearless type rule. We had it on most of our stuff before, and considering that particular axiom dates back to the great crusade, I don't know why Space Marines that hang out with Daemons, literally in Hell, are somehow more timid.

Edited by Doom Herald, 16 January 2020 - 05:23 PM.

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#56
Juggernut

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Yes, chaos should have equivalents, even if they’re just conceptual equivalents. Silly, from my perspective, is the desire to limit the power of our faction willingly (as if we had any choice). Make oneself weaker willingly if that's your thing, don’t limit the faction based on nonsense fluff interpretations.

 

That makes no sense. If not based on fluff interpretations how else should GW decide what to give each faction. You don't see loyalists crying for Daemon Princes or Daemon Primarchs etc either because there simply aren't such equivalents for them apart from some super special characters like Mephiston or the Sanguinor if at all.

So I'd rather say "don't add nonsense options to the faction based on crunch wishlisting".

 

Loyalists asking for daemon princes would be a nonsense fluff interpretation. Heretics asking for a chapter master would be a nonsense fluff interpretation. There could easily be other solutions that broadly make sense.

 

One could always choose to impose their own restrictions on their army. Getting outclassed by loyalists when there “should” be equivalent units has always been dumb to me, but seeing as how no one from GW has ever asked what I thought about this, it’s all an exercise in futility. 40k forums are at least 25% wishlisting, for all the good it does us.


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#57
Lord_Caerolion

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So just don't call it "Chaos Chapter Master". Sure, Loyalists don't have a Daemon Prince equivalent in fluff, but if we can manage to replicate Captains and Lieutenants with Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions, there's absolutely no reason that we shouldn't get a "Warmaster" upgrade to Chaos Lords, or some other similar fluffy name. 


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#58
MegaVolt87

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Well, the WB DA character upgrade strat fits. Titles can work eg- IW- Seige Breaker, AL- Harrow Master etc. We don't necessarily need copies of the CM rule directly. 8th copies plenty of stuff already but just names it differently, mechanically is the same. 


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#59
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Yeah strats are a very cool way of achieving this goal in a different way.

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#60
Kain Mor

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I wouldn’t mind the ability to upgrade a chaos lord to be re roll ones to hit and wound, that way he’s different from the (arguably bad for the game) re roll all hits bubble, but it also gives chaos a way to re roll ones to wound at range, which we’re definitely lacking as a faction.

#61
Doom Herald

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Maybe if the re-roll all aura didn't apply in overwatch, I would agree that that would be a reasonable replacement. When most things are BS 3 or 4 in an army, re-roll all isn't as big of a deal if it doesnt work in overwatch. As it is, against marines near a Chapter Master I effectively have to deal with almost 2 rounds of overwatch. If I deepstrike and they use Auspex Scan, it's worse. Re-roll all hits in the fighting and shooting phase would be a more reasonable comparison to re-roll hits and wounds of 1.




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