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Looking for feedback on my list wth Deathwing Knights!


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#26
Aztek

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Also do you ya'll think I can use the stratagem that inducts characters into the Deathwing and give my Slash Captain the new Deathwing relic Sword? I mean it makes sense to me as both happen before the game but I wanted to be sure.



#27
BlackTriton

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If you're going to use the new stratagem to get a Deep Striking 6'' Charge with Knights, reminder that :

- a Dark Eldar player can cancel the stratagem.

- the Ravenwing unit who trigger the stratagem cannot advance so it doesn't get Jink while being very close to the opponent.

- your Ancient will have to do his 9'' Charge on his own to follow Knights in Combat with his 6'' bubble.

 

For those reasons i think it's better to use a Chaplain with Master of Maneuver & Canticle of Hate.

this is a good point and a good delivery mechanic. 
there is a lot of good and bad to both way to do it, lets try to break them down:

 

pro chaplain:

he has fly and infantry, making it easier to get him in place.

nothing can denie the litanie if it goes off

multiple unit can benefit from the combo at the same time

 

Con of the chaplain

is 90pt to the 60 of a ravenwing apothecary
need to get a 3+ off on the turn you want to deepstrike

nothing can replace the chaplain if he gets sniped (no fall back plan)
chaplain doesn't bring much synergies with the rest of the army or buff to the knight.

slightly worst odd of making it in

Need the use of a warlord trait

if In some matchup you may want to start de DWK on the board, the chaplain is mostly useless.

 

Pro of combine assault:

very good odds of making the charge, even without rerolls

easier to find a place to deepstrike / harder to denie screen

any bike can be used to deepstrike, you can setup multiple strike potential, your move are harder to predict.

Apothecary is cheap, has good guns and is generally usefull for the list.

move 14" potential of 28" with the double move stratagem on the turn you want to deepstrike.

if In some matchup you may want to start de DWK on the board, nothing is lost.

 

con of combine assault:

command point intensive ! this is the biggest con

can be denied by a few faction

only one unit can use the stratagem at a time

 

 

I personally went with combined assault because I felt that the chaplain was doing too little for the rest of the army, while being more expensive. I do find the 2CP of combine assault to be suffocating since its so hard to have a good list with both deathwing Knight and 2 battalion, but since it free's up the warlord trait I ultimately believe it to be the right choice. 

 

 

as far as support go, the ancien is totally the way to go.

While he is gonna deepstrike 3" behind the kight, its no problem (and totally worth it) to leave a single knight out of combat and into the 6" aura.
if you fight something like a imperial knight, leave the sergeant back, his weapon is not great against high T model.

reroll hit are not very important, even less when you use fury of the first to hit on 2+, reroll wounds  however is invaluable when you fight T8 model with S8 weapon!

 

the 5+ feel bring the unit from tough to total bully and is a must in my opinion


Edited by BlackTriton, 18 January 2020 - 12:34 AM.

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#28
Chaplain Elijah

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If you're going to use the new stratagem to get a Deep Striking 6'' Charge with Knights, reminder that :

- a Dark Eldar player can cancel the stratagem.

- the Ravenwing unit who trigger the stratagem cannot advance so it doesn't get Jink while being very close to the opponent.

- your Ancient will have to do his 9'' Charge on his own to follow Knights in Combat with his 6'' bubble.

 

For those reasons i think it's better to use a Chaplain with Master of Maneuver & Canticle of Hate.

this is a good point and a good delivery mechanic. 
there is a lot of good and bad to both way to do it, lets try to break them down:

 

[snip]

 

Good points, while i would object on some of them i think the error is to compare them in a vaccum. I feel we have to look at how synergies works and playstyle on the table.

 

 

1) building the list

 

So we decided we really want to play those Deathwing Knights, fair enough, let's take 10 of them and build around them.

The next step is the auto-take Lightning Claws Deathwing Ancient with the new Relic for two bubbles of 6'' (Deathwing gets +1 Attacks & Deathwing Infantry gets 5+++ Feel No Pain).

 

10 Deathwing Knights = 350pts

1 Deathwing Ancient with LCs & Pennant of the Remeberance = 75pts

 

Then we go either the Combined Assault route or the Canticle of Hate + Master of Maneuver route for the delivery system.

I'll stick with your Ravenwing Apothecary and my Smash Chaplain :

 

Ravenwing Apothecary = Corvus Hammer & Bolt Pistol on a Bike with Plasma Talon = 60pts

Interrogator Chaplain = Jump Pack, Crozius & Mace of Redemption, Mantra of Strength & Canticle of Hate, Master of Maneuver = 99pts

 

So far the Apothecary is cheaper and can heal Knights, can do some work with his shooting and fighting.

The Chaplain fill a much needed HQ slot to get the 5 CPs of a Batallion but on the other hand use a Relic and a Warlord trait (that doesn't mean he has to be your Warlord though).

 

 

2) playing with Apothecary

 

- He start the game in the deployment zone next to a screen to not being shoot at.

- T1 he advance 20'' and Jink (so 4++) while still being screened by another Ravenwing unit.

- T2 he move (eventually move two times with Full Throttle) at a minimum of 12'' of the ennemy unit you want to target with DW Knights. End of the movement phase you use Combined Assault and Deathwing Knights can Deep Strike at 6'' of a Ravenwing unit that didn't Advanced (so the Apothecary) and 6'' of the ennemy (your target). Deathwing Ancient deep strike close to Knights but at 9'' of the target. The Apothecary can shoot. Then you do the 9'' charge with the Ancient (28% chance) then the 6'' charge with the Knights (72% chance), if the Ancient did not make the charge you have to keep a Knight model inside the Ancient bubbles (so you lose Attacks). With 10 Knights + Ancient (unlikely) on the charge and +1 Attacks bubble (eventually another +1 with Outnumbered Never Outmatched stratagem) you're likely to wipe the target in combat and pile in at 3''.

- T3 and onward the Apothecary can move close to Knights to heal/revive a model or shoot & fight along Deathwing/Ravenwing models. The Deathwing is on his own regarding mobility so you better have other targets at range and always manage to stay inside the Ancient bubble.

 

 

3) playing with Smash Chaplain

 

- He start the game in the deployment zone next to a screen to not being shoot at.

- T1 he reroll advance so he's likely to move ~16''. His screen can reroll advance too so i recommand playing Aggressors (move ~9'' & shoot at 21'' without -1 to hit) but then you need a faster screen to hide the ~16'' Chaplain (i recommand a drop pod deep striking T1 between the Chaplain and the opponent).

- T2 he use Canticle of Hate on a 3+ then move a maximum of 12'' to be at 9'' of the ennemy unit you want to target with DW Knights. They and the Ancient deep strike at 9'' of the target and at 6'' of the Chaplain. Then you do the 9'' charge with the Ancient (85% chance) then the 9'' charge with the Knights (85% chance) then the 9'' charge with the Chaplain (85% chance). Everything is very likely to make the Charge so you have no need for Knights to stay outside of Combat (everything fights). With 10 Knights + Ancient + Chaplain on the charge and +1 Attacks bubble (eventually another +1 with Outnumbered Never Outmatched stratagem) you will wipe the target in combat and pile in at 6'' (Canticle of Hate).

- T3 and onward the Chaplain can either use Canticle of Hate again to keep moving the Deathwing in Combat with +2 rerollable charge / 6'' pile in, or he can use Mantra of Strength to move 12'' and (reroll) Charge a big threat.

 

Because that's what i'm going to play in two weeks or so i'll add few things :

- Smash Chaplain with Mace of Redemption and Mantra of Strength is a awesome beatstick and as a Character benefit from the Ancient bubbles (+1 Attack & 5+++).

On the (rerollable) charge he dish 6 attacks 2+ to-hit S8 AP-3 Dmg D3+1. Also let's not forget his -1LD & LD9 bubbles, that can be useful.

- Because this build is based around Chaplain/Ancient bubbles you can always add more (Deathwing) models, they will make their 85% charge as well. I recommand the Deathwing Champion with Key of Achrabael (+1S & +1A) that would make up to up to 9 attacks hit on 2+ S8 AP-4 DmgD3 or a Deathwing Master (eventually Belial) as second HQ choice. To be noted you also have no use to play a large Deathwing Knights squad, 2 squads of 5 are more mobile and can do separate charges.

- If you go like me for the T1 Drop Pod screen you can put whatever you want inside. Given it's going to be close of the opponent & chaplain i recommand to use something Deathwing (because of the Ancient bubbles) that want to go in Combat T2 (because it can do it for a 85% chance as well). Personally i choose Azrael + 5 Tactical + 4 Vets with Chainsword & Storm Bolters. That bring shooting saturation, a second character (for batallion requirement) who will benefit from 5+++ and +1 Attack in Combat (Ancient) and because it's Azrael two more bubbles (4++ invulnerable and full reroll to-hit). At this point though i do not recommand to play Knights but regular Terminators with Storm Bolters & Power Fists : they will benefit from the 4++ greatly (so they become cataphractii without the drawbacks) and the full reroll to hit to make sure they hit something in Combat. Finally they will use Deathwing Assault because more saturation is always good.


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#29
Aztek

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Alright I think I'm gonna drop the Apothecary and have the Ancient+Chaplain combo. Puts me at 1965 so I hope Lazzy isn't too expensive or I might have to drop a Hellblaster. Makes my delivery system slightly less reliable(if all 5 Black Knights die somehow), but gives the Knights a better charge chance, and gives them more attacks and the 5++.

 

I could also save some points by going to the Heavy Plasma Destroyer on the Executioner now that it has 42 inch range for us.

 

How does that sound to everyone?

 

Thank you again!


Edited by Aztek, 18 January 2020 - 11:11 AM.


#30
Solrac

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Alright I think I'm gonna drop the Apothecary and have the Ancient+Chaplain combo. Puts me at 1965 so I hope Lazzy isn't too expensive or I might have to drop a Hellblaster. Makes my delivery system slightly less reliable(if all 5 Black Knights die somehow), but gives the Knights a better charge chance, and gives them more attacks and the 5++.

 

I could also save some points by going to the Heavy Plasma Destroyer on the Executioner now that it has 42 inch range for us.

 

How does that sound to everyone?

 

Thank you again!

 

I think you are overlooking something better than the Chaplain. A Phobos or Jump Pack Librarian with Righteous Repugnance to give the Knights re-roll hits and re-roll wounds.

 

You are also better off using a bike character as a delivery system so they can't be targeted by normal means. I plan to experiment using Sammael on Corvex myself. I don't think Black Knights will cut the mustard for a Deathwing Knight Bomb delivery.

 

The reason I think Sammael is a better choice to do this is once the Deathwing Knights are in play Sammael is still a solid "Smash Captain". Yes you are missing a lot of firepower not having him in his Speeder but Corvex is 60 pts cheaper than Sableclaw now.


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