Mandragola Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I played a brigade this weekend at a tournament. I don't think any of my units cost more than a smash captain does. I also had a couple of units of infiltrators. I didn't see anyone playing Blood Angels. The only things I saw deep strike were Eldar planes, which probably shouldn't have done so. I think I'd be pretty comfortable with facing a smash captain with my Crimson Fists - it's just a unit with no guns that isn't going to hurt me on turn 1, while I shoot loads of things dead. Marines need to be able to begin in whatever doctrine they want. Games are virtually over by the time you get to assault doctrine, so it doesn't really matter what your bonus is at that point. Iron Hands and Fists have a vast advantage that their super doctrine is active on Turn 1, the most important turn, and that it improves their shooting while all their guns are alive. An ability that improves your melee capability some time after you've been shot dead is not particularly useful. Indefragable and Dosjetka 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Marines need to be able to begin in whatever doctrine they want.Gonna have to disagree here. Speaking as someone whose faction would get brokenly good in a hurry. Unless of course you like the idea of a Raven Guard player murdering every single one of your characters before they can do anything if they go first. And we have enough movement and deployment tricks that putting them out of line of sight isn't guaranteed to save them. Edited January 13, 2020 by Claws and Effect BLACK BLΠFLY and Panzer 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted January 13, 2020 Author Share Posted January 13, 2020 Marines need to be able to begin in whatever doctrine they want.Gonna have to disagree here. Speaking as someone whose faction would get brokenly good in a hurry. Unless of course you like the idea of a Raven Guard player murdering every single one of your characters before they can do anything if they go first. And we have enough movement and deployment tricks that putting them out of line of sight isn't guaranteed to save them. Yeah, space marines aren’t a close combat army, they’re an army that can do close combat. And this isn’t the topic for that. Panzer 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Yeah definitely disagree there as well. The whole point of Combat Doctrines is to represent how Marines go from heavy shooting and then if necessary proceed to more tactical shooting and then if necessary proceed to melee while others like Astra Militarum are a bit more rigid and can't switch their combat tactic on the fly like that. Instead they have HQs who tell them what to do (orders). That the core rules benefit the chapters that have a thing for heavy shooting so they can just stick with that is unfortunate but once again mostly an issue with the core rules and how 40k is too shooty for its own good. However that's no reason to let chapters start with the Assault doctrine. There's no chapter that's exclusively melee. Even more savage chapters like Flesh Tearers or Black Templars or Space Wolves try to solve things first by shooting. Are Verlo 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I've fought Blood Angels a few times and they are strong. The way to deal with their assault potential is to accept you will have some losses. Once you've made that acceptance, you can think about forcing the choice of which units are lost to be yours. It's not as impossible as it might seem, even with their jump packs. Move your assault force just close enough to allow him to long bomb charge you, thus when they drop in (likely) not every unit or even model might make it. Even so, they're attacking the units you sent forward to assault. If you've screened out most of the rest of the board on your side it'll look like the opponent's best option. At that point you can counter attack him nicely, shooting dead the victorious sons of Sanguinius just as they revel in their slaughter. Sure you'll lose that Relic Contemptor along your Vanguard Veterans and Captain, but the overall result is likely a win now, since you can turn the guns of your entire army on his most dangerous section of the army. If the Blood Angels player doesn't take the bait, you can attack him and cause problems in his deployment zone and start taking those objectives off him and killing what fire support he has. Which will be less since most Blood Angels players put all their points into a super assault force. If there isn't a super assault force? Well he's playing YOUR game but likely you're better at it. Shoot him dead. If you don't have any elements that can advance and attack opponents, you're playing a gunline and well that's what the Blood Angels player expects. Panzer and BLACK BLΠFLY 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Omni scramblers...Infiltrators & phobos captains Auspex scan... Mandatory precise screening Redeploy stratagems/ warlord traits...red corsairs, alpha legion and phobos captain Salamanders successor flame aggressor screens Deathwatch frag cannons Frostglaive 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 To me it’s like chess - you trade pieces and save your queen. Put out some bait units forcing them to charge then retaliate. Captain Idaho and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I did the very same on Wednesday evening. I sent forth a Rhino with Chapter Champion and Company Champion combo alongside a Relic Contemptor and left them just close enough for a long bomb charge that left the units sat in front of my aarmy ready for a counter strike... BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsto Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 If Deepstrike is your problem why not use 3×5 Scouts? They cover the Table almost completly And if you hide them they will Survive Turn 1 Shooting At least this is what i do and it works almost every time. tychobi 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snazzy Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 I did the very same on Wednesday evening. I sent forth a Rhino with Chapter Champion and Company Champion combo alongside a Relic Contemptor and left them just close enough for a long bomb charge that left the units sat in front of my aarmy ready for a counter strike... Champions and Ancients are a great way to aknowledge that the opponent will occasionally figure out a way to surprise you. Depending on the Chapter, i'd consider a Chapter Champion Warlord. RG using Armor of Shadows, Fists using Shield Eternal. There's a good Relic/Trait combination in there for almost any Chapter, cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Blade of Triumph is all I go with as a Warlord on the front line will invariably get killed. Something for me to consider though, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) If Deepstrike is your problem why not use 3×5 Scouts? No no no no... Don't use scouts for anti-deepstrike. Use the anti-deepstrike 12" bubble primaris dudes. Also, didn't GW clarify that JP units can just charge over screens? Or am I mistaken? As to the quandary of this post, the smash cpt is going to smash something. It is then your opportunity to either fall back and shoot him dead or counter assault him with an exceptionally killy unit in return. Edited January 21, 2020 by Aothaine BLACK BLŒ FLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snazzy Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Blade of Triumph is all I go with as a Warlord on the front line will invariably get killed. Something for me to consider though, thanks. The Company Champion doesn't have to be THE warlord, right? Can't you pay the CPs to upgrade without assigning them the army Warlord? Captain Idaho 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Jump Pack troops (i.e. with fly) can indeed charge over units, but that isn't easy with just 2D6 when they've got to clear the unit from about 7+ inches away ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Blade of Triumph is all I go with as a Warlord on the front line will invariably get killed. Something for me to consider though, thanks. The Company Champion doesn't have to be THE warlord, right? Can't you pay the CPs to upgrade without assigning them the army Warlord? I can and probably will. However, the only Warlord Trait I can think of that is any good would be The Imperium's Sword. And extra pip of strength and attack will go a long way as a combat force. Depends if I'm already using Hero of the Chapter of course. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsto Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 No no no no... Don't use scouts for anti-deepstrike. Use the anti-deepstrike 12" bubble primaris dudes. Also, didn't GW clarify that JP units can just charge over screens? Or am I mistaken? As to the quandary of this post, the smash cpt is going to smash something. It is then your opportunity to either fall back and shoot him dead or counter assault him with an exceptionally killy unit in return. But the Primaris Infiltrators are very overcosted. Actually double the points for Scouts. Yes a fly unit can Charge over eneny mobels. But he has to deploy 9" away from the scouts which are your forward deployed unit. So the Smash Captain maybe can Charge your Scouts bit nothing else. After the smash captain wasted his attacks into scouts just shoot him into obilivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) Jump Pack troops (i.e. with fly) can indeed charge over units, but that isn't easy with just 2D6 when they've got to clear the unit from about 7+ inches away 2d6+1 in case of Blood Angels or 2d6+2 with help of a Chaplain to be pedantic. Make it 3d6+1/2 if they just arrived or got redeployed and the Blood Angels player had enough CP left. Edited January 22, 2020 by Panzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 That 3d6 charge range is misleading because he can only actually declare charges against units within 12". So yeah, he's got a great chance of making contact...but he's not going *over* the Scout screen to get the line units being screened so long as you've spaced everything properly. Aothaine and tychobi 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I never claimed they could charge something more than 12" away. Just that it would make charges way more likely than Captain Idaho made it sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) I didn't make it sound unlikely or likely. I was merely pointing out that clever play can mitigate the ability to fly over units. Sure, Blood Angels can utilise Strategums, but apart from forcing Command Points, this fractures their force since only one at a time. And, to back up my position through experience, if an opponent has to make a 9" charge to reach your forward units, it should be impossible for them to fly over these unite to reach the units 5" behind. I did this very thing last week - a Relic Contemptor pushed forward alongside a Rhino borne Chapter Champion just close enough to receive a 9" charge from Jump Troops dropping in. Their own footprint and the gap between these units and my supporting units meant the Blood Angels just couldn't do anything bar reach these units despite Strategum boosts etc. It's fairly simple to do. I suspect the idea (and fear) Blood Angels can jump over screens with impunity comes from the fact most players just clump around a few characters. Turns out, spreading across the table gives you board control. Edited January 23, 2020 by Captain Idaho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) Oh yeah I wasn't debating that. Spacing out so the Blood Angels don't even get into charge range of the important units is obviously going to help. Just saying that simply increasing the charge range required by a few inches won't help. Edited January 23, 2020 by Panzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Nothing in isolation helps. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 No no no no... Don't use scouts for anti-deepstrike. Use the anti-deepstrike 12" bubble primaris dudes. Also, didn't GW clarify that JP units can just charge over screens? Or am I mistaken? As to the quandary of this post, the smash cpt is going to smash something. It is then your opportunity to either fall back and shoot him dead or counter assault him with an exceptionally killy unit in return. But the Primaris Infiltrators are very overcosted. Actually double the points for Scouts. Yes a fly unit can Charge over eneny mobels. But he has to deploy 9" away from the scouts which are your forward deployed unit. So the Smash Captain maybe can Charge your Scouts bit nothing else. After the smash captain wasted his attacks into scouts just shoot him into obilivion. Correct me if wrong, but didn't the fall FAQ back in 2018 change 'Fly' to only allow you to move over units in the movement phase only, not charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 It was changed again due to community outcry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) It was changed again due to community outcry. Oh good. I thought the same thing, seemed stupid. Where's/when's that change/reversion, so I can let the guys at the shop, who will inevitably ask for citation, know. Edited January 25, 2020 by Dark Legionnare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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