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Fluff-wise, which flavour of Alpha Legion do you prefer?


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#26
mawhis

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The twin Primarchs thing wasn't introduced until the novel Legion.

Rumor is it was always intended by the writers, but I've never found anyone who can 100% confirm that.

 

AFAIK it was definitely not intended by the writers, was an Abnett contribution

 

 

I'm certain that I've either read or seen an Interview with Dan, where he was asked about this, and said that it came from Alan Merrett, but I can't find it now.

 

IIRC, Dan had to get the new lore that he was introducing in Legion signed off by Alan before he started, and Alan just threw it out, like "By the way, we've always assumed that they were twins - that there were two of them"

 

Edit:

It was from an old BLTV video which isn't on their site anymore. It's discussed in this old thread though (including the exact quote): http://www.bolterand...ns-death/page-3


Edited by mawhis, 15 January 2020 - 06:56 PM.


#27
ChazSexington

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The twin Primarchs thing wasn't introduced until the novel Legion.

Rumor is it was always intended by the writers, but I've never found anyone who can 100% confirm that.

 

 

 

 

The twin Primarchs thing wasn't introduced until the novel Legion.

Rumor is it was always intended by the writers, but I've never found anyone who can 100% confirm that.

 

AFAIK it was definitely not intended by the writers, was an Abnett contribution

 

 

I'm certain that I've either read or seen an Interview with Dan, where he was asked about this, and said that it came from Alan Merrett, but I can't find it now.

 

IIRC, Dan had to get the new lore that he was introducing in Legion signed off by Alan before he started, and Alan just threw it out, like "By the way, we've always assumed that they were twins - that there were two of them"

 

Edit:

It was from an old BLTV video which isn't on their site anymore. It's discussed in this old thread though (including the exact quote): http://www.bolterand...ns-death/page-3

 

 

Dan's stated it several times on different occasions. I was there at a book signing Q&A - I got my copy of Legion signed and he wrote "I am Groot" too. He pitched the idea to BL, thinking it was crazy, turns out, BL already had it as a distinct possibility, so they told him to run with it.

What's more interesting is Alan Bligh's theory of even more Alphariuses: https://www.reddit.c..._the_alpharius/


Edited by ChazSexington, 15 January 2020 - 07:56 PM.

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#28
Daemon Prince Marbas

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Frankly, I prefer the Chaotic flavor of Alpha Legion. I personally dislike the closet loyalist/renegade take on the Alpha Legion.
Actually I take that back my favorite version is the renegade, not Chaos but noy loyalist either version.
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#29
Lord_Caerolion

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Hah! Vindication! I knew I wasn't crazy reading that implication into the FW writeup!


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#30
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They are loyalists.

The question is to what?.

The imperium? the Emperor? Alpharius? the Legion? or some vision?

 

I think the imperium can burn, the Emperor entombed, Alpharius slain and the legion destroyed also as the Emperors vision lives on.

 

And since all the codex and rule books are written with a outside view of the legion we are left to decide for oneself.

 

And I also think the Alpha Legion is more about control that anything else. Stealth, lies and subterfuge are just a side effect.


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#31
Lord_Caerolion

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This whole "codexes are written from an outside/Imperial point of view" thing was always incorrect, otherwise we wouldn't know that the Lion was asleep inside the Rock, etc. They're written word of god, they just don't always provide all the information.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#32
slitth

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This whole "codexes are written from an outside/Imperial point of view" thing was always incorrect, otherwise we wouldn't know that the Lion was asleep inside the Rock, etc. They're written word of god, they just don't always provide all the information.

There is a difference between something being written by an outsider and being written with a outside view.

Every thing about the Alpha Legion could have be written by Alpharius himself, yet it is written with words as "them" instead of "us" or "we".

It also use words with negative connotation like "Heretic Astartes"

So some of the codex are written by someone that is misinformed or wants to misinform the reader.

There is also the timing of the writing, if its a imperial historian that is writing this down is could be written in a period where the Lion has returned and therefore inform where he was.

 

Anyway I say that anything about that Alpha Legion that is written with a outside view cannot be taken at face value.


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#33
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Ah, so codexes are written in the one incredibly contrived, unlikely style that makes you correct, gotcha.
Also, “Heretic Astartes” is literally the name of the faction, so again, unless you’re seriously arguing that GW themselves are attempting to also trick people out of playing the faction, then the word choice is because that’s their name, not evidence that all fluff is written in one of the most needlessly pointless ways possible.

"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#34
slitth

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Ah, so codexes are written in the one incredibly contrived, unlikely style that makes you correct, gotcha.
Also, “Heretic Astartes” is literally the name of the faction, so again, unless you’re seriously arguing that GW themselves are attempting to also trick people out of playing the faction, then the word choice is because that’s their name, not evidence that all fluff is written in one of the most needlessly pointless ways possible.

It called "source criticism"

The lore written about the Alpha Legion is intentionally written is a way that you where you could question the validity of the source.

This means that every thing could written about the Alpha Legion could be 95 % lies or it could all be true.

That is up to the reader to determine.

 

I have my opinion about validity of the source, but that hardly make me right about anything.

Only that I have an opinion that I am expresses in an open discussion.

 

As for the name “Heretic Astartes", Yes it is the name of the product that GW chose to marketed them as.

But do you think that anyone from the faction would call themselves that?

In Angel Exterminatus, Perturabo even chastise his men for call their enemy loyalists.

 

But it works wonder for marketing the “Heretic Astartes" as the bad guys.


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#35
Lucerne

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I'm going to note that even the Codex lore makes a point of emphasizing the Alpha Legion's continuity of mentality (I believe the wording used was "remained much the same in spirit if not in in body since its inception" even as the previous codex mentions their plan has gone off the rails and become "hopelessly corrupted") and that they're famously disciplined, coordinated, and unified.

 

Ironically, the AL are undeniably heretical Astartes even by the most "secret loyalist" definition, but evidence of warp worship is rather thin on the ground in their fluff.

 

So the "codex standard" AL warbands in GW lore do still fit a certain mold that's very much not the norm for a traitor legion warband.


Edited by Lucerne, 23 January 2020 - 06:11 PM.

"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

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#36
Iron Father Ferrum

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...but evidence of warp worship is rather thin on the ground in their fluff.


Yeah, it's not like there's a novel with the antagonist being an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince. And the 3.5 C:CSM didn't state that while they needed Cultists to summon daemons, that they weren't eager to field daemons on the battlefield. Or that the Index Astartes article says the Legion employs mutated and Possessed Marines. Or the codices all have pictures of Legionnaires with horned helms and spiked greaves and clearly mutated bits & weapons.

But yeah, let's call that evidence "thin."
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#37
Lucerne

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...but evidence of warp worship is rather thin on the ground in their fluff.


Yeah, it's not like there's a novel with the antagonist being an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince. And the 3.5 C:CSM didn't state that while they needed Cultists to summon daemons, that they weren't eager to field daemons on the battlefield. Or that the Index Astartes article says the Legion employs mutated and Possessed Marines. Or the codices all have pictures of Legionnaires with horned helms and spiked greaves and clearly mutated bits & weapons.

But yeah, let's call that evidence "thin."

 

Voldorius was drek and can be safely considered an outlier given its take on AL had almost nothing in common with the lore proper, the 3.5 Codex doubles down on them not having the situation for daemonspam (ie: "too far from the Eye of Terror", "the bulk of the Legion stayed in real space") but being pragmatic enough to use them if necessary when cultists start summoning them, that the mutations were explicitly stated to be hidden out of pragmatism (and no mention of possessed if I recall correctly), and that horns/spikes are pretty generic visuals- actually, on that note, mutated weapons don't really appear in AL artwork. Never mind that intentionally confusing visuals are a major canonical character trait for the Legion, which is its own can of worms.

 

"While the Alpha legion does not reside in the Eye of Terror, and therefore is not plagued by the Warping effects of that maelstrom of insanity, there is still evidence of mutation in the gene-seed. If this was the case prior to the Heresy, it was kept concealed, but given the legion's predilection for secrecy that would not be surprising. During the Lethe Ambush, mutated Alpha Legion Space Marines hid their warped body parts, not out of shame, but so they could reveal them as they attacked - adding horror and revulsion to the shock of their sudden attack."

 

Note that this Index Astartes is framed as being untrustworthy AL propaganda in-universe, which just muddies the waters further.

 

If that evidence is meant to be warp worship rather than simply heretical willingness to use tools, then Eisenhorn's a devout Chaos worshiper and so's every other Radical Inquisitor.


Edited by Lucerne, 23 January 2020 - 06:49 PM.

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"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

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#38
Iron Father Ferrum

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...but evidence of warp worship is rather thin on the ground in their fluff.

Yeah, it's not like there's a novel with the antagonist being an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince. And the 3.5 C:CSM didn't state that while they needed Cultists to summon daemons, that they weren't eager to field daemons on the battlefield. Or that the Index Astartes article says the Legion employs mutated and Possessed Marines. Or the codices all have pictures of Legionnaires with horned helms and spiked greaves and clearly mutated bits & weapons.

But yeah, let's call that evidence "thin."

Because your canonical evidence refutes my claim I do not accept its validity.

Fixed that for you.
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#39
Lucerne

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...but evidence of warp worship is rather thin on the ground in their fluff.

Yeah, it's not like there's a novel with the antagonist being an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince. And the 3.5 C:CSM didn't state that while they needed Cultists to summon daemons, that they weren't eager to field daemons on the battlefield. Or that the Index Astartes article says the Legion employs mutated and Possessed Marines. Or the codices all have pictures of Legionnaires with horned helms and spiked greaves and clearly mutated bits & weapons.

But yeah, let's call that evidence "thin."

Because your canonical evidence refutes my claim I do not accept its validity.

Fixed that for you.

 

I don't think so.


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"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

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#40
Lord_Caerolion

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3.5 can also be safely ignored, given its inability to perceive of the Legions in any way other than the basic stereotype, in that case. Fact remains, Voldorius is canon and has featured in several codices now. You may dislike it, but it is canon.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#41
Lucerne

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3.5 can also be safely ignored, given its inability to perceive of the Legions in any way other than the basic stereotype, in that case. Fact remains, Voldorius is canon and has featured in several codices now. You may dislike it, but it is canon.

Voldorius certainly exists in canon as the leader of a warband (Never mind how the alleged Alpha Legion in those events don't seem to have anything in common with the Codex portrayal) but given 3.5/Index Astartes is the foundation for the modern understanding of the Legions and Heresy's events, dismissing 3.5 where not actively contradicted by said portrayals is uncalled for.


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"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

https://i.imgur.com/YxV2bFv.png <-This is what the Warhammer 40k setting is about.


#42
Daemon Prince Marbas

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Guys and Gals I think there is plenty of room in the lore for your particular warband to be loyalists, renegades detesting Chaos, or Chaos Space Marines worshipping and embracing the gifts of the Dark Pantheon. If you like the closet loyalist angle, Sons of the Hydra provides inspiration. If you prefer Renegades, then Shroud of Night is for you. If you insist they must be Chaos then The Hunt For Voldorius is a must read.

#43
Lucerne

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I mean, sure, the Legion- and really any Legion- having option for homebrew and variations is definitely a thing and I don't mean to devalue anyone using existing lore as a springboard for their own creativity.

 

But at the same time there are a certain set of themes- tendencies and belief systems, if you will- that tend to be emphasized for "default" Alpha Legion. Warp worship by the CSM simply isn't something that default description focuses on.


Edited by Lucerne, 25 January 2020 - 02:48 AM.

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#44
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Except when it is.
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#45
Moonreaper666

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The Alpha Legion wiped out any truly loyal element within their Legion by sending them against the Shattered Legions. 10k years of Warp-taint, Chaos worship, Chaos corruption, etc has made them much more dangerous despite being fragmented

I am surprised they are not the main enemies of the Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Orikan the Diviner, Custodes, Sisters of Silencer, Ulthwe and many more! Just one scheme from them could destabilize the Galaxy far worse than the Great Rift

They should be in the 'Watchers of the Throne' novels as well as the Black Legion and Ahriman/Thousand Sons

#46
Lord_Caerolion

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Just one scheme, you say? Gee whiz, then it’s positively a good thing they’ve been sitting on their butts or asleep for the last 10,000 years, given they’ve absolutely never had that level of impact on the galaxy, even with a Legion’s worth of schemes.

If they ever team up with the Blood Gorgons, they’d surely be able to rampage into the Warp to kill Gork and Mork themselves, then wipe out every single Tyranid on their way home for supper!

Please dude, we’re begging you. Get your info from somewhere else than d4chan and fan-run wiki’s. It’s getting sad.

"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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#47
Moonreaper666

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Just one scheme, you say? Gee whiz, then it’s positively a good thing they’ve been sitting on their butts or asleep for the last 10,000 years, given they’ve absolutely never had that level of impact on the galaxy, even with a Legion’s worth of schemes.

If they ever team up with the Blood Gorgons, they’d surely be able to rampage into the Warp to kill Gork and Mork themselves, then wipe out every single Tyranid on their way home for supper!

Please dude, we’re begging you. Get your info from somewhere else than d4chan and fan-run wiki’s. It’s getting sad.


Didn't Night of a Thousand Rebellions basically undid all the gains the Sabbat Worlds Crusade (Gaunts' Ghosts) as well as the Macharian Crusade? (Solar Machiarus)

There is a good chance that Dorn's death is going to be ret-conned so that Omegon kills him in revenge for Alpharius

#48
Excessus

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Just one scheme, you say? Gee whiz, then it’s positively a good thing they’ve been sitting on their butts or asleep for the last 10,000 years, given they’ve absolutely never had that level of impact on the galaxy, even with a Legion’s worth of schemes.

If they ever team up with the Blood Gorgons, they’d surely be able to rampage into the Warp to kill Gork and Mork themselves, then wipe out every single Tyranid on their way home for supper!

Please dude, we’re begging you. Get your info from somewhere else than d4chan and fan-run wiki’s. It’s getting sad.


Didn't Night of a Thousand Rebellions basically undid all the gains the Sabbat Worlds Crusade (Gaunts' Ghosts) as well as the Macharian Crusade? (Solar Machiarus)

There is a good chance that Dorn's death is going to be ret-conned so that Omegon kills him in revenge for Alpharius

 

What do you mean, "good chance"? I haven't gotten any vibes of that at all.

 

Where are you getting all this from?


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#49
PJ1933

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I think the beauty of the Alpha Legion as a current 8th edition army is they can simply be whatever you want. There's enough canon room along with smoke and mirrors of conflicting back stories to allow gamers to build the army they want.

My current AL project is an all Primaris army and mixing in small elements of Ultramarine details, such as the occasional small UM decal on a back pack or knee pad while the majority of the army are resplendent in full heresy era decals and colour scheme. I feel my project will sow confusion and rage among the local UM community so feel that's job done ☺

Edited by PJ1933, 29 March 2020 - 10:13 PM.


#50
Lord_Caerolion

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I still think the best "AL Infiltrator" squad I've seen was a squad painted up as Ultramarines, but the bits coming off the U symbol were painted as hydra heads. From a distance, they looked like perfectly normal Ultramarines.


"And then Horus landed on the Moon, which looked like the moon. Funny that, isn't it?"


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