Using stratagems

[Halandaar]

As others have said, I think it's super dependent on which army you're playing because some Codexes simply have much better stratagems than others. When playing Genestealer Cult, I almost always manage to spend every CP I bring on Stratagems rather than re-rolls.

 

Individual re-rolls could turn a game, but honestly the amount of times I've re-rolled something only to get an identical result reminds me that a CP spent to get a guaranteed effect is almost always better than a CP spent to get a chance at rolling better than you just did.

[Rogue]

Or, similarly, a CP spent pre-game to gain a reroll aura or effect can produce many more rerolls overall than a CP reroll alone, sometimes on the clutch rolls that you'd want to CP reroll anyway.

 

For example, the Cult have a Vigilus warlord trait that allows rerolls of failed charges. 1 CP to grab that can be way better than relying on a single CP reroll to last all phase.

[Claws and Effect]

As a Raven Guard player, my army kind of relies on its Strategems to be good. Because let's face it, their passive Chapter Tactic is...not great.

 

I generally run with 10 command points and spend 4 of them before the game.

 

One of the things that annoyed me about 8th edition is the sheer number of abilities that used to be inherent to units now being Strategems.

[Captain Idaho]

Well nobody was talking about an army of just Troops. :rolleyes:

Well, you kinda are if you think you should run 3 Battalions. That's 9 Troops choices when you likely only needed 6 at most (small squads). Not to mention points spent on 2 extra HQs.

 

Problem with this is just what are you going to spend all those CPs on?

[Panzer]

 

Well nobody was talking about an army of just Troops. 

Well, you kinda are if you think you should run 3 Battalions. That's 9 Troops choices when you likely only needed 6 at most (small squads). Not to mention points spent on 2 extra HQs.

 

Problem with this is just what are you going to spend all those CPs on?

 

 

Well first of all I said double or even tripple. So mainly double.

And where to spend the CPs on? Oh boy, so many things. Transhuman Physiology, everything to boost characters (including Smash Captains), additional relics, warlord traits, 6" pile in for some infantry unit (since we are talking about Blood Angels), Rapid fire 2 Intercessors and so on and on. You'll run out of CP faster than you'd like to even with three Battalions.

[Ishagu]

Chapters like RG can burn through 10 CP in one turn with ease.

 

Even as an Ultra player I find I spend them all in every game.

[Claws and Effect]

Chapters like RG can burn through 10 CP in one turn with ease.

 

We can and do.

 

If I wanted to I could spend them all before the game even starts.

[Snazzy]

 

Well nobody was talking about an army of just Troops. 

Well, you kinda are if you think you should run 3 Battalions. That's 9 Troops choices when you likely only needed 6 at most (small squads). Not to mention points spent on 2 extra HQs.

 

Problem with this is just what are you going to spend all those CPs on?

 

 

 

Relics, Warlord Traits, specialist detachments, Psyker strats, starts that target enemy units, rather than your small squads.

[Captain Idaho]

Last night I burnt through 10 CP in 2 turns! I used Transhuman Physiology twice in a single turn (shooting and assault) and all sorts of things. It was needed to keep alive against Blood Angels and keep hitting them back just as hard with Flakk missiles and Hellfire Shells against Jump Pack models with Storm Shields etc.

 

I can't go less than a Brigade now!

[battle captain corpus]

Last night I burnt through 10 CP in 2 turns! I used Transhuman Physiology twice in a single turn (shooting and assault) and all sorts of things. It was needed to keep alive against Blood Angels and keep hitting them back just as hard with Flakk missiles and Hellfire Shells against Jump Pack models with Storm Shields etc.

 

I can't go less than a Brigade now!

 

Been there! I've easily burned through CP in two turns with my Black Legion before. I rarely, if ever, use them for command re-rolls etc. But I'm far more likey to use them to add flavour to my units or to boost their already considerable skills etc. I'm more along the lines of using them for rule of cool rather than Command Re-roll but thats purely me and how I play.

 

BCC

[Schlitzaf]

Only times I use a command reroll sense the change to my tactics has been for Abhor 4+ rerolls and/or in theory my 2+ no runaway

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m planning to run a brigade for IH coz I love those sweet sweet CPs. Ultramarines on the other hand easily can farm them back over the course of a game.

[Captain Idaho]

Since the change to how many we can get back a turn, I've found Adept of the Codex useless. As an example from my recent game where I used 10 of my 12 available in 2 turns, all 12 by turn 3, I'd have only got a maximum of 3 back for each of those turns. Likely on less as I spent more in 1 turn.

 

The rules for Adept of the Codex are insufficient as Marines using just that and not other farming techniques never got that many back and in those days we only had poor Steategums anyway.

 

A genuine case of being punished because of other armies.

[Indefragable]

As a BA player my record was 18 CP used in a single turn.

[mughi3]

Dark Legionnare

 

 

I respect your decision to play armies how you do, we all do it how we see fit. I happen to like being an infantry commander first and foremost~ Have since 3rd edition. My old blood angels only ever had a land raider crusader, and baal predator, because they were "cool."

This is my current double vanguard build(minus the HKs and swapped the seismic hammers for chianfists- the physical loadout has been on my ironclads since 5th kinda permanent ). I am waiting for dreamforge to open back up to replace some of these minis to represent my hellblaster unit and my eliminators. since I use some of these minis for 30K also it is a temporary repurposing. It is the 8th ed incarnation of my old 5th edition list that I still like playing.

 

 

It only gives 5cp, but I don't care all that much because they are the models I like to play. the power of the rule of cool compels me.

[Dark Legionnare]

Dark Legionnare

 

 

I respect your decision to play armies how you do, we all do it how we see fit. I happen to like being an infantry commander first and foremost~ Have since 3rd edition. My old blood angels only ever had a land raider crusader, and baal predator, because they were "cool."

This is my current double vanguard build(minus the HKs and swapped the seismic hammers for chianfists- the physical loadout has been on my ironclads since 5th kinda permanent ). I am waiting for dreamforge to open back up to replace some of these minis to represent my hellblaster unit and my eliminators. since I use some of these minis for 30K also it is a temporary repurposing. It is the 8th ed incarnation of my old 5th edition list that I still like playing.

 

 

It only gives 5cp, but I don't care all that much because they are the models I like to play. the power of the rule of cool compels me.

 

Amen, brother!  Ultimately, what you "like" to play is what I always tell everybody to do.  Nid player at our shop who wants to run hordes of gaunts and stealers, but feels he needs to get lots of monsters to not make games take long.  I always tell him to run what he loves, it's a game about rolling dice, talking smack, and having fun for a good chunk of hours with friends, not being "optimal."

 

The plethora of mortis dreads and siege dreads does tickle a love in me too~  The Furioso and Siege dreads have always been my favorite.

 

Methinks you need to get a fire raptor to slap in in place of the storm eagle for some fun dakka-storm games!  Fire raptors are gorgeous, and hella fun.

 

And yeah, 5 CP looks like it would work well for what you have.  Half dmg dread stat, remove move and fire heavy on a key dread, etc...

 

 

[mughi3]

well they are 3 venerable fire support dreads, so its not like moving and firing is hurting me to much as a salamander

 

I love my storm eagle, and given the price and what a terrible job FW did on the kit I won't be getting another one.

 

But hey it's usable in my 30K army to, just a slight weapons loadout change (no typhoon launcher just a single missile) and a huge points drop.

 

 

P.S.

 

I got a deal coming on some bulgryns, so I can do my guard superheavy detchament "army" with my macharius, doomhammer and a few other items...get to close and suprise it's a guard assault army! the irony!

Edited January 19, 2020 by mughi3

[Lord Blackwood]

I  feel like this thread is deviating from  its alleged intended purpose.  

I think we have established that you run lists that afford you  5 command points and you  do not want to build lists that would afford you more than that. 

Maybe the focus should be on what stratagems you could use with a list like the one you tend to run. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think you need at least 10 cp for it to be effective.

[mughi3]

last game at 1.5k 5CP-no hellblasters, no storm hawk.

 

VS khorne list used no stratagems, used 4 CP on re-rolls one of witch (armor save) kept my storm eagle alive with one wound.

 

I did have a stupid amount of lucky rolls, raptors assaulted it and I overwatched 7 out of 8 and then killed the 8th with retaliatory CC hits.

 

Still a good game and both of us had fun, perhaps not the most effective but not impossible to play.

[Dark Shepherd]

As a general thing I used to find the dice reroll to be the bane of command points, really have to use them sparingly, and only when its vital and huge chance of going off, and even then they reroll as 1s half the time

 

Mostly played a Wolves list 8cp to start, kept burning them before I could use the impact strats like Honour The Chapter or Only in Death

[Rik Lightstar]

I've just been putting together my 2k list for tonight and I've spent 8 Command Points on Character Upgrades and Relics at the list building stage. I've still got 7 left, I think the improvement in rolls and re-rolls being bought early on will be worthwhile.

 

For those interested it's:

• Primaris Captain > Chapter Master - 2cp (Better re-roll aura)
• Primaris Chaplain > Master of Sanctity - 1cp (2 attempts every turn is better than re-rolling once)
• Company Champion > Chapter Champion - 1cp (bonus attack, harder to hit)
• Primaris Ancient > Chapter Ancient + Standard of Righteous Hatred - 2cp (9 inch aura, +1 to the final attack roll, final attacks hit on a 2+)
• Primaris Apothecary > Chief Apothecary + Hero of the Chapter (Selfless Healer) - 2cp (re-roll healing, can heal twice)

Rik

[mughi3]

I see how that can work given they don't let you just buy them straight out of the codex anymore for more points like the old DA codex difference between chaplains and interrogator chaplains, or the difference in librarian levels.

[Captain Idaho]

As a general thing I used to find the dice reroll to be the bane of command points, really have to use them sparingly, and only when its vital and huge chance of going off, and even then they reroll as 1s half the time

Mostly played a Wolves list 8cp to start, kept burning them before I could use the impact strats like Honour The Chapter or Only in Death

I completely agree with this. Too many people use rerolls to compensate for bad luck and will use 2-3 in a turn quite easily on rerolling, when they would be better off just taking the fail and using solid Stratagems that put their opponents in a painful position.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

As a general thing I used to find the dice reroll to be the bane of command points, really have to use them sparingly, and only when its vital and huge chance of going off, and even then they reroll as 1s half the time

Mostly played a Wolves list 8cp to start, kept burning them before I could use the impact strats like Honour The Chapter or Only in Death

I completely agree with this. Too many people use rerolls to compensate for bad luck and will use 2-3 in a turn quite easily on rerolling, when they would be better off just taking the fail and using solid Stratagems that put their opponents in a painful position.

Ive got it down to pretty much using rerolls on getting off a vital psychic power turn 1 and rerolling a crucial damage roll on a vehicle if I get a 1 or 2 and it has 3 or more wounds left. Things like perils of the warp I just eat