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So that just happened.

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15 replies to this topic

#1
Claws and Effect

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Grey Knights got a huge buff. I'm happy for the players that have been suffering with garbage rules for ages now.

But one of the buffs they got is...

Well, it's exactly our Chapter Tactic. With every drawback it has removed. No 12" away requirement, and vehicles get full benefit of the -1 to hit. Oh, and they aren't stuck with it if they run up against a faction that hard counters cover, they have 3 other things they can take instead.

Decided to start a thread about it here instead of continuing to complain in the News and Rumors thread.

To clarify: I would not care in the slightest if they had copied our Tactic exactly with the 12" away requirement intact.

But the fact that they still benefit from it at 2" away is kind of a slap in the face.

Your thoughts, fellow sons of Corax?

#2
Biscuittzz

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I replied in the N&R thread but as a denizen of the Ravenspire too I guess I can give a longer answer here.

 

I think you're getting a little hung up over the 'it's ours!' part. As I said in the other thread, Grey Knights had the Shrouding rule long before any sort of CT were developed for Raven Guard iirc. So in any case it's the RG who appropriated their rule or a derivative of it.

 

Nowhere in the rule does it mention vehicles, only says 'unit'. Considering our vehicles already don't benefit from our CT, I can't imagine this rule will be different. Let's wait and see before getting worked up over it.

 

Finally, having similar rules isn't the be all and end all of playstyle. Codex marines have access to all the new goodies. I'm sure GK would be happy to give away this tide to access Primaris and heavy tanks etc.


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#3
Claws and Effect

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Not mentioning vehicles is why I interpreted theirs as affecting vehicles, because ours specifically calls out vehicles as not benefitting (just verified that). Theirs does not.

Not that familiar with Grey Knights, to be honest. Is their Shrouding rule a passive benefit that is always on, or is it a Psychic power?

And the main reason I'm upset is twofold.

1) First GW nerfed our Tactic by changing it from a -1 to hit over 12" away, but did NOT (as far as I know) alter the 3 identical traits from other factions to match.

2) After they changed the Tactic they gave a version of it to a different faction with all of it's drawbacks removed.

Grey Knights getting the trait is NOT what I'm upset about, as I've mentioned several times. It's the fact that they gave it to them without the downsides that we have.

An analogy would be if another faction got the same +1 to wound as the Blood Angels, but it kept working in turns they didn't charge in.

#4
Black Blow Fly

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Just let it go Claws.

Edited by Black Blow Fly, 13 January 2020 - 10:12 PM.

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#5
Aothaine

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Honestly after seeing the pillaging of my only special character, Feirros, please just chill. No one that can comment publicly knows what will happen with future rules. I understand why you might kind of upset but be patient. Grey Knights really needed the stepping stool to catch up to codex marines. Also, I would really hate to see GW do another knee-jerk reaction and nerf something that doesn't need to be nerfed after another release one-two months later. 

 

Also want to point out that Raven Guard are so much more than the cover bonus outside of 12". 


Edited by Aothaine, 14 January 2020 - 05:39 AM.

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#6
Biscuittzz

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I'd ere on the side of GK vehicles not getting Tides as they already do not receive the benefits of our usual CT, Brotherhood of Psykers. I'd happily see that reversed however.

 

No - Shrouding was a rule that GK had around 3rd-6th Ed I believe. Initially it was a rule were the opponent rolled 3D6 and multiplied the result by 3. The resultant number was how far the enemy unit could shoot out to. It was then changed as the editions changed to a power that gave stealth and a cover save I believe. I was using it as an example as the initial part or your argument seemed to give off an impression of 'this is ours!', when in reality RG CT were practically a reworking of old GK shroud.

 

Regarding your points:

 

1) I too was initially quite annoyed that we were the only ones getting this nerf compared to AL, AdMech, Eldar etc. However in hindsight I feel it was just now that we see all of the new primaris units that have come after it. I'd give some praise to GW for actually thinking ahead for once. Yes we were the only nerf, but other armies don't have access to the units that we have.

 

2) Again, you're getting hung up on the same CT is given to someone else without the drawbacks argument. I feel you're completely missing sight of another balancing factor i.e. the units available to factions that the CT actually works on. The RG CT as it is, is still more powerful for marines compared to the new drawback-free Tide that GK have because you have a plethora of units that can take better advantage of it. Lets also not forget that you have a CT and doctrines AND your personalised super doctrine. And the entire astartes arsenal at your disposal.

 

We didn't get the downside,yes, but hopefully the above shows why GW decided not to give us a drawback.

 

Again, your last analogy is poor imo because you're entirely focused upon the CT in a vacuum and not looking at what units the faction has at it's disposal to use with that specific CT or the playstyle of the army in general.

 

To take your analogy, let's give the +1 wounding CT working with and without charging to Imperial Guard. It'll work excellently with Orgryns yea but it's wasted on the standard 60-100 guardsmen they take. Are 100 guardsmen with +1 to wound dangerous? Yes of course, but if they're charging across the board to get at me, then they're not screening etc. I.e. 100 guardsmen with +1 to wound CT looks great but is so counter intuitive to how Imperial Guard play it doesn't matter if they got a better version of Blood Angel CTs.

 

*breaths*


Edited by Biscuittzz, 13 January 2020 - 10:37 PM.

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#7
Black Blow Fly

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Fair dinkum mate. :)

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#8
DDaley60

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As someone who has a GK force that's been collecting dust and a fan of the lore im glad they got the buff they did. It suits what they do and how they operate with the limited units in their book. Plus as with all rules they're subject to change, let the sons of Titan have some fun and actually put those psychic powers to use.



#9
superwill

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If you’re looking for an injustice along these lines, consider that this now puts GK in the middle between RG’s chapter tactic and Alpha Legion’s one (which gives the -1 to hit without need for cover, even to their OP dreads). Combine that with the fact that they’ve got access to 10-12 strats which are all stronger than any strat in either the SM, GK or the RG dex, and the fact that they’ve got plenty of units which are just strictly better than their SM counterparts, and you can redirect any outrage in Chaos’ direction.

Honestly though, how Alpha legion got so many broken strats without any nerfing of their chapter tactic (which remains identical to the original, apparently OP tactic of RG) is beyond me.

Edited by superwill, 14 January 2020 - 04:12 AM.


#10
MajorNese

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Honestly though, how Alpha legion got so many broken strats without any nerfing of their chapter tactic (which remains identical to the original, apparently OP tactic of RG) is beyond me.

To be honest - it would be new to me that AL were suddenly better than RG.

With the new codex/custom CT/doctrines/super doctrine/supplements/PA char upgrades, we have massively more options and buffs than chaos. We don't need a blanket -1 to hit to make due, having cover in the open and -1 in terrain seems to work just fine. Chaos has some units that are better than our direct counterparts, yet we have a damn lot more options than they will ever have, and loyalist marines being GWs main army, I don't expect this to change. A blanket -1 to hit is not the solution for powerful armies, as AdMech proves - they still suck due to power creep, and most people select Mars (instead of Stygies) to actually get some firepower on the field instead of that -1.

 

Regarding GK - it may be frustrating at first glance, to have another army without any particular ties to covert ops to one-up the core rule of the number one loyalist covert ops faction.

But considering the sorry state of the GK codex, the all but discontinued model line and the sheer amount of options, hard counters and one-up buffs we got in the meantime, I'm okay with that. GK won't revert to their frustratingly OP version from 5th edition, even with that "annoying" buff.


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#11
superwill

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To be honest - it would be new to me that AL were suddenly better than RG.
With the new codex/custom CT/doctrines/super doctrine/supplements/PA char upgrades, we have massively more options and buffs than chaos. We don't need a blanket -1 to hit to make due, having cover in the open and -1 in terrain seems to work just fine. Chaos has some units that are better than our direct counterparts, yet we have a damn lot more options than they will ever have, and loyalist marines being GWs main army, I don't expect this to change. A blanket -1 to hit is not the solution for powerful armies, as AdMech proves - they still suck due to power creep, and most people select Mars (instead of Stygies) to actually get some firepower on the field instead of that -1.


I wrote out a full response but it was a bit too ranty haha. To keep it simple, i am perplexed at how quiet Chaos is and how they’re flying under the radar. I think units like Warp Talons (VV with lightning claws, who for *minus* ten points receive a 5++, DTTFE instead of ATSKNF, can’t be overwatched, have access to a 3d6+4” charge and can’t be fallen back from...), termies who can combo to make even our assault centurions look limp-wristed, lord discordants who are slightly less flexible than smash captains in exchange for being about five times killier, four times tankier and three times faster, cultists who would be our most popular troops if we had them (like we did back when you could have guardsmen troops in a SM battalion), regular CSM who are as cheap as our most popular troops (scouts) and still not worth taking in comparison to cultists, FW dreads who have better options than ours and better auras too (and FW dreads are some of our best options) and most importantly some really messed up strats, a good dozen of which are better than anything found in any SM book. One of BA’s best strats is that 3d6 charge - they get it for 1CP cheaper. They get an auspex scan with extra range and no -1. They can turn any unit into infiltrators (no DS within 12”) after you’ve already declared what unit is arriving. They can fail a psychic power and then for 1CP decide that it passes and can’t be denied (and with warp time being the most amazing power in the game that’s pretty whack). They can fail a charge and then decide they want to change one of the dice to a 6. As RG, I’ve found my whole army is built around a unit or two of centurions deepstriking and crippling my opponent. They’re good at it, but it’s my only trick. Obliterators from CSM have the ability to drop in and be just as devastating on the drop, come with DS built in, and aren’t even the best trick in the army. Even our chaplains with their fancy litanies are just inferior in many ways to the Dark Apostles imo. And they have WLTs and Relics which only Ironstone ever competed with.

Doctrines are our one advantage (chapter tactics and ATSKNF being worse), but with chaos factions having so many amazing combos between them, they’d probably want to ditch special doctrines anyway so they can take multiple factions.

I guess either Chaos will start hitting their straps in the next few months as PA shakes out, or I’ve really misread the play here haha.

#12
MajorNese

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I guess either Chaos will start hitting their straps in the next few months as PA shakes out, or I’ve really misread the play here haha.

From all those combos, I've only ever heard of the NL warp talons and warptime. Even amongst our more power-focused chaos players around here.

And it would be new to me that chaos is big at winning tournaments, but to be honest, I'm not actively following that stuff.

 

The disco lord can be freely targeted and screened (unlike a smash captain) which is why quite a few people around here dropped him already. Still good, but nowhere near a guaranteed return like the smash captain. Better FW units? The unkillable IH stormcannon leviathan begs to differ, as does the IF Astraeus. Souping legions to get all the possible options is a bit far-fetched - how many people soup Astartes to get access to every supplement combo and strat? It does get cumbersome when buffs don't apply to most of the army (wrong legion keyword), and in our case doctrines/super doctrines make so much difference that few people even bother souping. Which is the downside to all that chaos stuff - with doctrines, some of our units get ridiculously killy - who cares if their regular CSM are cheap, if we can make pretty much every single gun better against good armour saves? There are a lot of downsides to chaos stuff, once you start looking past the obviously powerful parts. I'd rather face a disco lord than a smash captain...

 

The grass is always greener on the other side, but we are in absolutely no position to complain.


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#13
Panzer

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They might have your Chapter Tactic in better but you also have Combat Doctrines and a super doctrine. Also you have a lot more proper ranged units. You always need to see the whole package, not just one small detail.


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#14
EnsignJoker

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You need to get over it. That rule and schtick is not exclusively “yours” or Raven Guards; it was arbitrarily applied to help give the chapter character alongside the others in C:SM. Grey Knights are more specialized and powerful than a vanilla marine chapter, so there’s nothing wrong with them having better rules.

Moaning about something so trivial as it pertains to making Grey Knights finally useable is not a good look.
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#15
MajorNese

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That rule and schtick is not exclusively “yours” or Raven Guards; it was arbitrarily applied to help give the chapter character alongside the others in C:SM.

 

Grey Knights are more specialized and powerful than a vanilla marine chapter, so there’s nothing wrong with them having better rules.

First point - it may not be exclusively "ours", but the single rule best fitting the entire stealth approach, and with us since Chapter Tactics were a thing. It does appear "unintuitive" that a force as unsubtle as GK would be able to do the same "stealth" thing, just better.

 

Second point - from a fluff perspective, sure - they're an all wizard supersoldier army, they should be more powerful. From a game perspective - not so much, unless against demons maybe.

GK have just MEQ/TEQ, the most commonly referenced targets in the game. Everyone has tools to deal with power armoured hordes. Their main selling point from back in the day (all terminator force, +1W paladins) got hit hard by the fact that primaris are everywhere now, making AP and multidamage increasingly common in every list.
As such, I accept that they need this buff to not get shot off the board in one or two turns - cover offsetting general increase in AP (like doctrines) and -1 to hit against plasma and backfield gunlines (Tau, IG). They are a force of "get over there, magically induce headache, then hit them with glowing swords", and simply don't have the tools that other factions have for doing that properly (like the cited NL warp talons or BA smash captain).

No hard feelings on my side, especially since the supplements expanded our playstyle above and beyond "gunline with -1 to hit". Counterintuitive, yes, but not exactly breaking the game.


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#16
duz_

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=][= Seems the main topic has already been covered and we are now off discussing the finer details of other faction CTs. Will close this for now. =][=




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