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Uses for DA new "Super Doctrine"


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#26
Angel of Solitude

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Had thought about that, but then wondered why I would need anything more than 48”? The benefit of the unit is that they prevent the unit from being able to overwatch, meaning that for ultimate synergy you want to follow up with a charge. Doing that from 54” away on your first turn feels very unlikely

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#27
Berzul

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I want to try a squad of plasma cannon devastators, with the new litany and weapons from the dark age. Firing 4D3 S8 AP-4 D3 shots, with no penalties and re-rolling 1's, at 42", while backing up to keep myself at max range all the time. And with a lieutenant for better effect.


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#28
Vexillia Primus

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My thought on it is to be able to be a threat to most things at range while being out of range. Mostly as an annoyance while my ravenwing is a close range threat moving up the board to teleport in deathwing knights.

#29
jaxom

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According to the leak it affects infantry units only though.

 

Ah damn, too good to be true teehee.gif

 

 

Relentless Hunt just says "units with this ability," so assuming it works like the other super-doctrines then it applies to vehicles. Unless this was referring to the Chaplain litany? 'Cause, yeah, thats infantry only.

 

does the super doctrine suddenly make veteran suicide drops useful again? i mean now you have a bunch of combi meltas with a 36" boltgun and an 18" meltagun. thats a really strong, or u could go combi plasma with weapons of the dark age and give some specialist backliners a good thorough plasma hosing? what is everyone else opinion on such a tactic, drop in t1 under super doctrine, immedeatly annihilate say a squad of oblits or salamanders aggressors, or heck give the shield captain general something to dwell upon as he decideds where he wants to move and what targets he wants to delete. deleting units isnt as easy for the shield captain general when hes been forced to make some 20 overcharged plasma weapon saves

 

The melta profile of a combi-melta is Assault, so I think it is affected by Relentless Hunt adding 3" to Assault weapons. I would imagine that  the half-range still being outside 9" is on purpose.

 

This did get me thinking about the tactical flexibility of a 24" range grav-gun or combi-grav against Primaris equivalents. 12" rapid fire Str5 AP-3 Dd3 against 3+ saves....

 

Brothers, what do you think about Stalker bolter rifle intercessors? With devastator doctrine they will produce 42" s4 ap3 d2 shots. Looking good, isn't it? We can take units of 5 to cap home points, and with 42" range they will also contribute to battle. Or we can take unit of 10 and move it alongside Azrael/Chaplain castle, rocking 2d shots and sniping enemy characters.

 

I like this against PEQ heavy armies or as a dedicated anti-character concept. Against 1W and 3W heavy armies I think the bolt rifle is the better option for general usage. But yeah, 10 42" range, Str4 AP-3 D2 shots are going to crimp a lot of character's style. With re-roll 1s on both hit and wound, a T3 5++ model takes 8 wounds, a T4 3+ model (Apothecary, Ancient, Librarian, etc) takes between 6 and 8 wounds, and a T4 4++ model (Captain, Chaplain, etc) takes 4 wounds. Azrael vs Master doesn't make much of a different there, but if you can get a re-roll wounds instead of 1s to wounds, that'll up those numbers significantly. Considering how much character's are lynchpins for army functionality theses days; definitely worth the points for a dedicated sniping squad if you can afford the CP to do it each turn. Maybe even worth it just to take out one important character on turn 1. 


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#30
TempestBlade

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Anyone look at the humble impulsor for a gun boat? 90 points for 2 storm bolters, ironhail heavy stubber, and the ironhail skyfire array. Zip it around the table to grab objectives and be annoying. I know there are better choices but if your running an all primaris force it might be a good horde clearer.

Edited by TempestBlade, 15 January 2020 - 11:07 PM.

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#31
SnakeChisler

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I've just built 3 warsuits who now have either an 18" flamer or a 54" auto cannon

And my tank is magnetised also so the big plasma cannon thing gets 2d6 at 42" -5 with wotda 3 damage on overcharge, if your killing inceptors, aggressors etc it should come in.

#32
jaxom

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Idea (maybe not a good one): 10 Hellblasters with Assault Plasma Incinerators and a Chaplain as Turn one high threat objective grabbers. Turn one, use Recitation of Focus and Advance aggressively towards a lateral objective. 20 Str6 AP-4 shots hitting on 3+ out to 27". That's nine dead MEQs on average (12 with a Master and Lieutenant, 10 with a Lieutenant.


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#33
jaxom

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Fun information:

 

5 man Devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons 129 points

10 man Devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons 194 points

5 man Hellblaster squad with 5 plasma incinerators 165 points

 

I looked at damage output for Doctrine, WotDA, and overcharged with +1 to hit from Recitation of Focus and re-rolling 1s to hit. If you can get the Hellblasters into 18" range (with the doctrine) then they do approximately 1 more wound per salvo of plasma weapons (3 more damage). Otherwise, for 29 more points, you can have the same number of wounds, more bodies, and 6 bolters.

 

Of course, if one wants to go whole hog for 330 points of Hellblasters, then that can, on average, output 10 wounds (30 damage) on T5-T7, 8 wounds (24 damage) on T8, and 5 wounds (18 damage) on T9-15. This is where Hellblasters might be considered more points-efficient because one would need 396 points for same wounds and similiar damage output from two Devastator squads. If one wants to glass cannon it, then the Devastators are definitely cheaper at 258 points for two squads of 5 (w/4 plasma cannons each).


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#34
SinnerBeta

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My army consists mostly out of Tacticals, Bikers and Terminators so most of my shooting comes in the form of bolters, which leaves me disappointed as I'd rather have -1 AP over the additional 6" on them. It will help the first turn salvo from Dreads and Razorbacks I guess, or the Black Knights' plasma talons in a pinch. But if you use more assault cannons, melta and other such weapons this could be good for you.


Edited by SinnerBeta, 16 January 2020 - 07:18 PM.


#35
Interrogator Stobz

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Same here Brother, it seems like the new taller brothers weapons will capitalize on the gains the most as expected; but our Plasma Devastator and Jump Pack Assault squads with flamers got a great boost with the range addition.
Not to mention the neat synergy and boosts for the First and Second Companies.

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#36
mika_angelus

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Flamers able to shoot out of deep strike are a great screen clearer, also razorbacks with assault cannons and land speeders benefit a lot from the combination of Dev doctrine + super doctrine.
I'm personally pretty excited for 30" grav cannons.

#37
Interrogator Stobz

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Yes, Grav Cannons big weakness is the range, this is good news for that weapon system.

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#38
jaxom

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I look forward to trying out turn 1 30" range stormbolters with a big squad of normal deployed Deathwing.


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#39
Lord_Ikka

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I'm definitely happy with the increased range for every gun. Means that my teleporting Tartaros termies will now be able to better spread some nasty fire to different targets when they land- hopefully distracting the enemy from my DW Knights. Really helps my plasma cannon devs, the less they have to move the happier they are. Overall, a very nice boost to the DA gunline-style armies, and a decent 1st turn boost for any non-gunline army as well.


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#40
aura_enchanted

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With our super doctrine the deimos Vindicator laser destroyer is now 42" and that is a huge buff letting you use him as an anti tank sniper from hell.

You can heavy 2 s10 ap-3 d6 reroll's with a landspeeder via strategems for maximum people murdering.

You could flatten a contempor dreadnaught assuming he fails his 5++
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#41
G8Keeper

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Yes, Grav Cannons big weakness is the range, this is good news for that weapon system.

 

I wonder if we'll get the Gravitic Amplification stratagem? Added range + re-roll 1's to hit, plus re-roll wound and damage would bring Grav devs back into contention for me.


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#42
sneakybamsen

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Yes, Grav Cannons big weakness is the range, this is good news for that weapon system.

 

I wonder if we'll get the Gravitic Amplification stratagem? Added range + re-roll 1's to hit, plus re-roll wound and damage would bring Grav devs back into contention for me.

 

 

I think I will try them in a drop pod this weekend with the previewed rules. I don't think that will allow me to use Gravitic Amplification, but hopefully we get that with the actual book. With out litany and devastator doctrine, it would be sweet.


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#43
TempestBlade

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My game tomorrow got cancelled due to weather/my daughter is sick so the following weekend will be my stalker bolter test with the new super doctrine. I’ll post results of the test after next weekends game.
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#44
eternal_warrior12

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I feel like a doof not thinking about the Deathwing angle especially since I have an army. 30” storm bolters turn one is amazing.

#45
mika_angelus

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Brothers!
What about land raider Redeemer?

Just noticed his flamers are heavy, and they did got a range upgrade recently so with our doctrine they are now 18" s6 ap-3 d2.
That's quite good!
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#46
Orkinstein

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I have a idea of "Decapitation Strike" with our super doctrine.

 

A master in TDA, with relic/madtercrafted weapon and Huntsman warlord trait. DS on 2nd turn, use Deathwing assault CP shoot immediately to enemy character, then shoot again in normal shooting phase.

 

After mathhammer, for hunting normal characters, the best choice is Foe-smiter!

 

A TDA master DS alone without any supports,  on average can deliver 3.89 wounds on a T4 3+/4++ character. If there is a Lt. nearby, that would be 4.54 wounds. A normal space marine captain only has 5 wounds. The best thing is that under super doctrine and Bolter Discipline, you can rapid fire at 30". Very cheap and even better when you switch to tactical doctrine later.

 

Other options are:

1. Mastercrafted combine plasma. Super charge both of time and use WFTDA for shooting phase: 5.67 wounds. Only super charge and use WFTDA for shooting phase: 4.54 wounds. Not supercharge and use WFTDA for shooting phase: 3.24 wounds.  Lion's Roar is garbage. It is not worth to shoot plasma and bolter at the same time. PS: Although you have chance to get hot and dead... But if you have tons of CPs and no there place to spend, you can use Fury of the First for +1 to hit in both moving and shooting phase. 5CPs total. That must be very very important target.msn-wink.gif

 

2. Mastercrafted combine melta. 3.65 wounds. But if no invul save, it is 7.30 wounds. Range 15".

 

3. Mastercrafted combine grav-gun. 3.89 wounds. But if no invul save, it is 6.48 wounds. Range 12". Do we have grav weapon CP???

 

4. Mastercrafted combine flamerteehee.gif  Shoot both flamer and bolter: 3.37 wounds. Range 11". Actually it is not as bad as it looks like...teehee.gif  On company commander, T3 5+/5++, that are 8.98 wounds. You can kill 2 in 1 turnteehee.gif

 

5. Bolter of Judgement. Not sure if you can take it for TDA, but only 2.43 wounds. On T5 3+/4++ SM bike character, Foe-smiter still has 2.59 wounds. Don't take it...

 

 

 

Edit: I forgot TDA master has a wrist-mounted grenade launcher for free. (12"+3"=15") On average, it can deliver 0.49 wounds to a T4 3+/4++ model. So 0.98 wound for shoot twice. With Foe-smiter that will be 4.86 wounds. And 3.24 wounds if it has a SS(3++).


Edited by Orkinstein, 19 January 2020 - 08:50 AM.


#47
Syphid

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I have a idea of "Decapitation Strike" with our super doctrine.

A master in TDA, with relic/madtercrafted weapon and Huntsman warlord trait. DS on 2nd turn, use Deathwing assault CP shoot immediately to enemy character, then shoot again in normal shooting phase.

After mathhammer, for hunting normal characters, the best choice is Foe-smiter!

A TDA master DS alone without any supports, on average can deliver 3.89 wounds on a T4 3+/4++ character. If there is a Lt. nearby, that would be 4.54 wounds. A normal space marine captain only has 5 wounds. The best thing is that under super doctrine and Bolter Discipline, you can rapid fire at 30". Very cheap and even better when you switch to tactical doctrine later.

Other options are:
1. Mastercrafted combine plasma. Super charge both of time and use WFTDA for shooting phase: 5.67 wounds. Only super charge and use WFTDA for shooting phase: 4.54 wounds. Not supercharge and use WFTDA for shooting phase: 3.24 wounds. Lion's Roar is garbage. It is not worth to shoot plasma and bolter at the same time. PS: Although you have chance to get hot and dead... But if you have tons of CPs and no there place to spend, you can use Fury of the First for +1 to hit in both moving and shooting phase. 5CPs total. That must be very very important target.msn-wink.gif

2. Mastercrafted combine melta. 3.65 wounds. But if no invul save, it is 7.30 wounds. Range 15".

3. Mastercrafted combine grav-gun. 3.89 wounds. But if no invul save, it is 6.48 wounds. Range 12". Do we have grav weapon CP???

4. Mastercrafted combine flamerteehee.gif Shoot both flamer and bolter: 3.37 wounds. Range 11". Actually it is not as bad as it looks like...teehee.gif On company commander, T3 5+/5++, that are 8.98 wounds. You can kill 2 in 1 turnteehee.gif

5. Bolter of Judgement. Not sure if you can take it for TDA, but only 2.43 wounds. On T5 3+/4++ SM bike character, Foe-smiter still has 2.59 wounds. Don't take it...



Edit: I forgot TDA master has a wrist-mounted grenade launcher for free. (12"+3"=15") On average, it can deliver 0.49 wounds to a T4 3+/4++ model. So 0.98 wound for shoot twice. With Foe-smiter that will be 4.86 wounds. And 3.24 wounds if it has a SS(3++).


I was thinking about this too. I collect a successor so to save CP I was thinking of Combi Plasma, Bolt of Judgement, and grenade launcher. Overcharged plasma with a bolt of Judgement and grenade... I just need to find a way to mitigate that -1 to hit so my Master doesn't kill himself if I roll a 2.

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#48
Hantheman

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Master-crafted twin assault cannon on a talonmaster?



#49
Chaplain Elijah

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Master-crafted twin assault cannon on a talonmaster?

 

 

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#50
Hantheman

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Master-crafted twin assault cannon on a talonmaster?



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