206 replies to this topic

[Irbis]

Based on what the warp seems to have done to him, Corax. He’d be a great foil to the more strategic approach of Guilliman (e.g. fine, you fight your wars, but I’m taking my chapters to lop off the enemy’s head), and I can envisage a cool model where Corax is shape shifting into a flock of ravens.

 
People here keep repeating 'foil' and I just wonder if anyone bothered to read Dark Imperium books. Rob mentions like a hundred times he would love if any of his brothers took some of command roles off him so he can focus on shoring up rotten foundations instead of wasting his time on petty campaigns. If Lion came back with his dumb fixation on getting the warmaster title G wound literally throw the award diploma in his face and told him to start yesterday. Foil? What foil? Galaxy is large, even if returned primarch wanted to change the warfare style he could just pick another segmentum to never even see others, never mind actually arguing over anything with anyone.
 

I would really like the loyal Fulgrim to return from the Fabius books. It would create a nice triangle between Gman and daemon Fulgrim. At the same time warp corax returns. The contrast between a loyal primarch who's form has changed potentially and a fallen primarch who has (through cloning) returned pure.

 
Honestly, I'd love that to be the case. Loyalist Fulgrim would be unencumbered by stupid baggage most of the snowflake legions picked up over last 10000 years, while needing to constantly prove himself and living with doubts far greater than any other primarch and trying to make up for the actions of his possessed body. It would be one of the most potentially interesting returns which is sadly why it's one of the least likely to happen...

[Nocturne Noble]

Does anyone else feel that if The Lion returned it would undermine the Dark Angel's whole shtick? By that I mean that their identity revolves around keeping the secret that roughly half their Legion turned traitor and the lengths that they'll go to in order to keep that truth from getting out. If the Lion returned wouldn't that be swept under the rug? Sure, they could continue to be insular and aloof, but I feel a large part of their angst and drive would dissolve.

[cretacianborn]

Does anyone else feel that if The Lion returned it would undermine the Dark Angel's whole shtick? By that I mean that their identity revolves around keeping the secret that roughly half their Legion turned traitor and the lengths that they'll go to in order to keep that truth from getting out. If the Lion returned wouldn't that be swept under the rug? Sure, they could continue to be insular and aloof, but I feel a large part of their angst and drive would dissolve.

 

I guess if (or when) he does wake up, everyones going to be like, "So uhhh, Caliban eh? What happened there?" and they'd still need to cover it up? I'm not 100% on my DA lore but surely he'd have to explain what happened, at least to Roboute? 

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't know about that, those questions would've been answered 10,000 years ago. No one in the modern Imperium would even know to ask what happened to Caliban. Also 'Horus did it' is a good cover. 

[Ishagu]

The Lion and Roboute have a mutual understanding and respect for each other. Guilliman will believe him if he says the traitors weren't his doing.

[Indefragable]

Does anyone else feel that if The Lion returned it would undermine the Dark Angel's whole shtick? By that I mean that their identity revolves around keeping the secret that roughly half their Legion turned traitor and the lengths that they'll go to in order to keep that truth from getting out. If the Lion returned wouldn't that be swept under the rug? Sure, they could continue to be insular and aloof, but I feel a large part of their angst and drive would dissolve.

 

It could actually intensify things. I can the Lion going either way: "stop spending so much effort on something so dumb....there's fightin' to be had!" but also "no way am I going to let it be known that half my sons turned away!" ....in which case having a Primarch be so secretive makes the problem even worse in a lot of ways.

 

I think that latter is actually less interesting than the former, but GW's lack of imagination means that they'll Yo Dawg I heard you like secrets so I'll make some secrets about secrets and be secretive about your secret secrets. <yawn>

 

*********************

 

I think the next Loyalist Primarch to return will and should depend on where they want the narrative* to go next:

 

-The Lion and/or Russ are leaders of a level that can throw Guiliman's dictatorship command for a loop as they present viable alternatives in their own ways

 

-As a nightcap to the whole Psychic Awakening thing, Khan or the Russ would be cool. Khan evolving into a biker Stormseer par excellence and the character trajectory of Russ becoming a wisened Rune Priest x100 is too juicy to pass up. 

 

-Dorn: although they could surprise us, I find it hard to conceive of Dorn coming back in one piece (physically or mentally) at this point a bit off. Though arguably of all the surviving** Loyalists, Dorn did have the largest command (Sol System +) during the HH, so by rights he should be the Supreme Commander of the Imperium, there's not a snowball's chance GW lets another "vanilla" Primarch usurp the golden haired one. Besides, making Imperial Fists the new poster child would seriously hurt their sales since everyone would have to learn to paint yellow.

 

-Vulkan: they don't really know what to do with this guy (or the Salamanders) beyond "hammerz!" and "flamerz!" so I would prefer they keep him back for a while until they actually grow a creative bone in their body. 

 

-Corax: I would be shocked if they don't make him a loner assassin Primarch. As such, he seems the "easiest" to bring back at any point without upsetting the apple cart of the setting. Sometimes laziness just works. I guess I'm putting my money down on Corax next, if any come back

[cretacianborn]

I don't know about that, those questions would've been answered 10,000 years ago. No one in the modern Imperium would even know to ask what happened to Caliban. Also 'Horus did it' is a good cover. 

 

 

The Lion and Roboute have a mutual understanding and respect for each other. Guilliman will believe him if he says the traitors weren't his doing.

 

I guess so yeah, be interesting to see what the rest of the Imperium thinks if it did become common knowledge. I'm sure the number of Inquisitors knocking on the front door of The Rock would increase, especially if Luther and all those Fallen who are supposedly mustering start making a fuss too.

[Marshal Rohr]

If the Lion was awake the Inquisition wouldn't be able to touch him. Even if Guilliman wanted it investigated or something, Guilliman has no right or Authority over the Lion. 

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 16 January 2020 - 01:21 PM.

[Ishagu]

There might be an Inquest into why the Dark Angels allowed a Xenos species to keep the Lion in a coma for thousands of years when the Imperium really needed him.

[Claws and Effect]

There might be an Inquest into why the Dark Angels allowed a Xenos species to keep the Lion in a coma for thousands of years when the Imperium really needed him.

Easily answered. They didn't know he was down there. The part of the Rock he was in was literally only gone to by the Watchers.

[Ishagu]

Ignorance as a valid excuse in the Imperium? I don't think so.
Especially as the Dark Angels have willingly allowed the watchers to co-exist with them.

How will Guilliman react when he hears that this happened on their watch? How about the Inquisition? What would the Lion think when he find out his sons allowed some Xenos to hide him away in a coma for such a long time? lol

[Volt]

Does anyone else feel that if The Lion returned it would undermine the Dark Angel's whole shtick? By that I mean that their identity revolves around keeping the secret that roughly half their Legion turned traitor and the lengths that they'll go to in order to keep that truth from getting out. If the Lion returned wouldn't that be swept under the rug? Sure, they could continue to be insular and aloof, but I feel a large part of their angst and drive would dissolve.

The answer is that the identity and the Fallen nonsense is stupid cancer that should have been dragged out behind the shed and shot a decade ago. It's going nowhere, it's in every bloody story, and it was only ever done good once and the author that wrote that book keeps trying to live up to that former glory. Ending the Fallen nonsense would finally get GW to write something for the Dark Angels that wasn't just another damn Fallen hunt that goes nowhere, achieves nothing, and involves a bunch of pointless mystery box style writing.  Ideally the Lion would come back simply to slay that whole narrative.

[Triszin]

Russ, comes back.

And is a mentor and guide to psykers.

Making magnuses had explode

[Gederas]

Ignorance as a valid excuse in the Imperium? I don't think so.
Especially as the Dark Angels have willingly allowed the watchers to co-exist with them.

How will Guilliman react when he hears that this happened on their watch? How about the Inquisition? What would the Lion think when he find out his sons allowed some Xenos to hide him away in a coma for such a long time? lol

Same thing as the Space Wolves and their Fenrisian Wolves probably. The Watchers are a benign to the Imperium and Legion xenos species native to that Legion's homeworld. They're treated much like fauna.

 

(note: I'm well aware that out of universe, we know the Fenrisian Wolves aren't actually xenos wolves. But, iirc, 99% of the people in-setting DON'T know that)

[Boytoy]

what if the lion came back and unified his sons again? and im not talking about just the unforgiven, but the fallen as well. like maybe he leads a campaign against them, fights mano-a-mano with luther again, then, both exhausted, one asks the other "why?". they resolve their differences, fallen are re-accepted into the fold after a purging of chaos corruption and voila, instant resolution of the fallen plot that has been going on for too long.

 

also, odin russ, demon corax and crusading black templar dorn would all make excellent models. but i think the lion is the best call to bring back. and please no wulfen russ, we SW players can only take so much

[DeadFingers]

Despite the Lion being one of the leading candidates for a reappearance, I'd rather see a Primarch that is aware of what's been going on in the galaxy, even if just partially, before another "man out of time" scenario. Russ and Corax I think would be the better candidates for this, or at least they both have plausible reasons to be aware of what's been happening but ignore it in favour of their personal missions. Vulkan is an oddball, since he may have been skulking in the shadows doing who knows what, or he might not have regenerated until recently. I don't know how perpetual regeneration works. Khan and Dorn don't strike me as the types that would willingly abandon their duties for so long, I think they're either lost or prisoners somewhere, if they decide to completely retcon Dorn's death, so they might have no clue of what's happened while they were gone.

 

So long story short, Russ and Corax are my top picks. I'm sure GW will avoid having the Lion's return be just Guilliman 2.0 somehow, but in the end he still is another sleeping beauty that needs a millenia-long reality lowdown. Although it's not completely safe to say that Russ or Corax are aware of what's happened outside the Warp while they were gone, but their chances are definitely higher than someone that's been asleep. 

 

With that said, I doubt Corax will be a top pick from GW to bring back for the moment, even with his newfound Warp-shadow powers, so that leaves Russ. Still a very interesting pick, specially since Magnus was the very first traitor Primarch to return.

Edited by DeadFingers, 17 January 2020 - 03:52 PM.

[Nocturne Noble]

This might sound bizarre coming from a Salamander's fan; but I don't actually want Vulkan to return. At least, I wouldn't mind if he doesn't. Honestly, I don't think the Chapter needs him. Vulkan taught his sons to be self-reliant, to be strong, compassionate yet pragmatic and to always aspire to greatness in service to all (Humanity). I feel they've lived up to that standard via his Promethean Creed.

 

While they have a distinct champion in the guise of the Forgefather whose mission it is to unravel the location of their Primarch, I don't believe Vulkan would be welcomed back or be able to integrate himself as seamlessly as Roboute has into the farce that the Imperium has become. He's too forthright.

 

As when he last surfaced during the War of the Beast; I think he'd want to do away with the High Lords entirely rather than placate or out politic them as Robute has, the same goes for the Inquisition with their supremely perverted remit and the raving zealotry of the Ecclesiarchy. I'd argue the reason he would never willingly return is because he thinks the Imperium is too far gone.

 

I imagine Vulkan living peacefully on a world at the periphery of the galaxy; devoid of sapient life but rich in fauna and flora, tending to it like a botanist does a Bonsai tree so that over millennia it's developed into a near perfect ecosystem. Occasionally - say every century he'll craft something magnificent, just to sate his creative urges, yet would be content to store it away as he did on Nocturne before. Maybe he talks to himself, maybe to whom he thinks is Ferrus or even Dorn, but he'd be content in his garden away from all the strife.

 

Maybe that's why he made the clues to his whereabouts so cryptic in the Tome of Fire. His reasoning being that if his sons were willing to endure so much to find him then for them, and only them, would he return.

Edited by Nocturne Noble, 18 January 2020 - 11:05 AM.

[Karhedron]

According to the Space Wolves visions in the Prospero book (?) the next Primarch is definitely not Russ but either Lion or Khan (they are the only ones without a 30K model too).

I am pretty sure Gav Thorpe was just stirring the pot with that book. I don't think it has any real bearing on which Primarch will return next.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Looking at the loyalists that left, most could be considered mentally broken/have given up I think. Dorn had pretty much given up the ghost before disapearing, Vulkan really didn't want to come back, Corax and Russ were melancholy and left. The Khan disappeared into the webway rather than straight up leave (iirc), the Lion and Guilliman were injured. The way that it was written when they left or disappeared, makes it more difficult for them to justifiably bring them back. As I said most don't want to come back. I think Russ is an exception to this as he told someone (Bjorn?) that he was coming back when he was needed.

 

For me, the only ones that make sense to come back are Guilliman and Lion as they were injured didn't leave on purpose and Russ. It makes most sense to bring back the Lion first then Russ, as again the Lion can just wake up at any point and it doesn't have to the "Wolf-time" or advance the plot too much to bring the clock even closer to midnight. I do think that Heretics will get a primarch before loyalists do to balance the favour even more their direction only to have Lion swoop in and help. As others have said, Guilliman wants to be able to shift gears into statesman and I think the Lion would help do that best.

[Aramis K]

Ghost Ferrus at the head of a crusade of the Legion of the Damned.

Starts appearing all over with any Imperial force in dire need. Seems to follow rumours of Fulgrim.

(Excuse to plug into any faction, nice counter to Snake-Fulgrim)

Poor Iron Hands start chasing the rumors round the galaxy and falling out over daddy issues.

Edited by Aramis K, 17 January 2020 - 07:52 PM.

[jaxom]

Ignorance as a valid excuse in the Imperium? I don't think so.
Especially as the Dark Angels have willingly allowed the watchers to co-exist with them.

How will Guilliman react when he hears that this happened on their watch? How about the Inquisition? What would the Lion think when he find out his sons allowed some Xenos to hide him away in a coma for such a long time? lol

Everyone: “Where were you Primarch Jonson?”
The Lion: *Stares intensely*
Everyone: ....
The Lion: *nanoscopic curling of lip*
[Luther bursts in naked while rambling about how someone stole his power armor, trailed by Marbas demanding Luther put on pants. Marbas awkwardly stops motionless when he realizes Everyone is staring at his demon lion head]
The Lion: *nanoscopic lip curl becomes microscopic*
Luther: “Oooh, who made him mad?”
Everyone: *now visibly confused* Who are you people?
[Marbas is slowly backing out of the room as the Ordo Malleus is giving him funny looks]
Luther: “I’m the Lion’s best buddy! Maybe! I’m not sure if he’s still mad about the pudding or maybe it was tapioca. Either way it made mess. Half the Legion ended up with food poisoning and got real ornery. At least that’s how I remember it. Do you forgive, pal?”
The Lion: “If you put on a robe, then, yes.”
Everyone: “Yes, please, if the crazy naked man covers up then all is forgiven.”

Edited by jaxom, 17 January 2020 - 10:40 PM.

[reckoning]

None of them.

[m0nolith]

 

 

The Lion and Russ coming back to form their own independent Imperial factions as foils to Guilliman.

This.
It would definitely add some much needed pathos in this noblebright universe.
Besides, they already copied the Ruinstorm from the Heresy, they might as well do another version of Imperium Secundus.

 

There's nothing noblebright about what's currently happening in the 40k universe though.

 

Oh...really?

[DeadFingers]

I don't think Warhammer Adventures qualifies as canonical for the 40k universe in any way, shape or form.

[Redcomet]

The Lion and Russ coming back to form their own independent Imperial factions as foils to Guilliman.

This.
It would definitely add some much needed pathos in this noblebright universe.
Besides, they already copied the Ruinstorm from the Heresy, they might as well do another version of Imperium Secundus.

Noblebright??

The status of the galaxy is grimmer and darker than it has ever been.

As for a loyalist Primarch, I would like to see the Lion and Russ return.

Edited by Redcomet, 18 January 2020 - 09:26 PM.