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Help versus Thousand Sons


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#1
Pyronick

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Hello fellow gamers.  I'm looking for some help against my brother (only opponent as we are both very casual). He plays Thousand Sons and I play a now all primaris blood angels army. I'm a 3rd edition player of BA's and when primaris came along i saw the writing on the wall and sold all the old casts and started fresh as a way to get an updated and more experience painted army. 

 

I struggle against his army for a few reasons. One it seems like his rubric marines are so hard to take down to them shrugging of single dmg wounds often, having strong guns, and strong saves. 

 

Secondly, he runs this giant beast that i think is a mutilex? Either way it runs up the field with this giant mortal wound causing aura, has a billion wounds it feels like and regenerates them. I realize this is more than likely just a distraction carnifex but the wound aura has hard to ignore it feels like. 

 

Thirdly, his Tzaangors seem cheap as heck, and have a ton of killing power to them. The trend here is that im confused on what to prioritize. 

 

Lastly, he always brings Demon princes or Magnus and a bunch of sorcerers (At least one a squad) and im just left confused on what to target in which order, it all seems so deadly.

 

As we're both casual players we're more about rule of cool than soup meta lists. So my restrictions are that i usually buy one of each model type so i can paint them up and have some variation.  Here is what i have access to.

 

 

Mephiston

Smash Captain (Its primaris but we dont mind me playing him as counts as normal smash)

2 Primaris Lt's one in CC build the other in shooty.

Primaris Chaplain

Primaris Ancient

2 5 man squads of Intessors with normal bolt rifles and a grenade launcher each (Sgt's with Pswords)

2 5 man squads of hellblasters with normal plasma version\

3 Aggressors in bolter config

3 Intercessors with Plasma 

Drop pod (From before i realise it cant be used with primaris)

Land Raider (Same as Drop pod)

Storm Raven fully magnetised for all weapon options (Yet another one that can't take primaris but i didnt wanna sell cause its sweet)

Redemptor Dreadnaught mag'd for all options

Death Company Dread

Librarian Dread

Contemptor Dread from FW (Can run as relic, in fact i think i have to because its double melee weapon version like a furioso)

Repulsor mag'd for options

Repulsor Executioner also mag'd for options

Astareus battle tank (Looked sweet and wanted the model, not put together yet but soon?)

 

I realize my biggest glaring mistake is not having powerful units like death company and sang guard. I had them and will again when primaris versions come around, for now i dont mind using what I have.  I also realise its a big issue not having a 3rd troop unit to get the batallion CP. I desperately need to grab some incursors I think to fill the gap. 

 

So, its a puzzle. With these limited options, what general guidelines and advice can you give me for taking on a very Mech style of Thousand Sons. What pitfalls should I avoid and what tactics can you recommend?

As always I appreciate all and any help!

 

Also quick edit: Points wise we often use Power Level as its simply faster and less stress. Assume a 75 PL or 1500 points game roughly. Possibly 100 / 2000 if we're feeling sporty. 

Hello fellow Baalites.  I'm looking for some help against my brother (only opponent as we are both very casual). He plays Thousand Sons and I play a now all primaris blood angels army. I'm a 3rd edition player of BA's and when primaris came along i saw the writing on the wall and sold all the old casts and started fresh as a way to get an updated and more experience painted army. 

 

I struggle against his army for a few reasons. One it seems like his rubric marines are so hard to take down to them shrugging of single dmg wounds often, having strong guns, and strong saves. 

 

Secondly, he runs this giant beast that i think is a mutilex? Either way it runs up the field with this giant mortal wound causing aura, has a billion wounds it feels like and regenerates them. I realize this is more than likely just a distraction carnifex but the wound aura has hard to ignore it feels like. 

 

Thirdly, his Tzaangors seem cheap as heck, and have a ton of killing power to them. The trend here is that im confused on what to prioritize. 

 

Lastly, he always brings Demon princes or Magnus and a bunch of sorcerers (At least one a squad) and im just left confused on what to target in which order, it all seems so deadly.

 

As we're both casual players we're more about rule of cool than soup meta lists. So my restrictions are that i usually buy one of each model type so i can paint them up and have some variation.  Here is what i have access to.

 

 

Mephiston

Smash Captain (Its primaris but we dont mind me playing him as counts as normal smash)

2 Primaris Lt's one in CC build the other in shooty.

Primaris Chaplain

Primaris Ancient

2 5 man squads of Intessors with normal bolt rifles and a grenade launcher each (Sgt's with Pswords)

2 5 man squads of hellblasters with normal plasma version\

3 Aggressors in bolter config

3 Intercessors with Plasma 

Drop pod (From before i realise it cant be used with primaris)

Land Raider (Same as Drop pod)

Storm Raven fully magnetised for all weapon options (Yet another one that can't take primaris but i didnt wanna sell cause its sweet)

Redemptor Dreadnaught mag'd for all options

Death Company Dread

Librarian Dread

Contemptor Dread from FW (Can run as relic, in fact i think i have to because its double melee weapon version like a furioso)

Repulsor mag'd for options

Repulsor Executioner also mag'd for options

Astareus battle tank (Looked sweet and wanted the model, not put together yet but soon?)

 

I realize my biggest glaring mistake is not having powerful units like death company and sang guard. I had them and will again when primaris versions come around, for now i dont mind using what I have.  I also realise its a big issue not having a 3rd troop unit to get the batallion CP. I desperately need to grab some incursors I think to fill the gap. 

 

So, its a puzzle. With these limited options, what general guidelines and advice can you give me for taking on a very Mech style of Thousand Sons. What pitfalls should I avoid and what tactics can you recommend?

As always I appreciate all and any help!

 

Also quick edit: Points wise we often use Power Level as its simply faster and less stress. Assume a 75 PL or 1500 points game roughly. Possibly 100 / 2000 if we're feeling sporty. 



#2
WarriorFish

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There's a lot to address here, first is that as this is a specific Blood Angels issue you might be better off in the Blood Angels section where there's more specific experience. Let me know if you want this topic moved. Secondly, be aware that the latest Psychic Awakening book will be giving some improvements to Thousand Sons.

 

I'm working on my Thousand Sons and have plenty of experience against Blood Angels, so I think you shouldn't be having such difficulty against the Sons. It sounds like you have a few issues in the right tools for the job, and making sure you use them efficiently?

 

The Mutalith is decent but sounds like it's very much a distraction. I think you need to take a step back and review what your opponent is doing, it sounds like he's got into the Sons codex and knows it well so he's hitting the right spots against you. So you need to do the same ;) In the meantime, I can give you some general advice (but again, the Blood Angels section is the best place to get more specific help).

 

Rubrics are quite durable, with effective mid-range shooting. They have poor long range and AT. If your opponent is mechanising then you need to remove that mobility, as it's letting him dictate the terms of his arrival (i.e. rapid fire/warp flamer death range). Some strong long range AT to crack them open will do well here, and as an added bonus will be good for taking down Magnus (pour AT fire into him, and he'll go away). If you clean up the bigger units their multi-damage stat will handily take out Rubrics.

 

This is key; as Rubrics are paying for their special rules. As soon as you have a weapon that isn't D1 (don't forget: it doesn't work against D3 for example, even if you roll a 1) they will struggle. This is even more the case for Scarab Occult, as their 2W becomes just as useless!

 

You definitely need a proper battalion too, those Command Points are extremely useful for anyone never mind BA who are very CP hungry. Fleshing out your collection for more options is also a good idea so this should be high priority along with some research :tu: I also wonder if using Power Level might be an issue also, if your opponent loads up on upgrades you might have to do the same?

 

Generally your tactics should be to isolate and withdraw; make sure your opponent can't do what he wants. Leverage your superior long range fire to focus fire and of course remove the greatest of threats! Some combat would go far too, as not only are BA good at it but the opposite is true for the Sons so if you can get to grips with them you should be able to make a difference.


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Terminators | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Gaunts


#3
Pyronick

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This is some really great feedback thank you for taking the time to write this up. I'm still in my 3rd edition / 7th edition mindset in that I am a jump pack assault army with hordes of death company and i want to rush head first into battle. I think this is opening me up to his Mortal Wounds aura around his beast and smite spam. I'll leverage my heavy army some more to escort my boys up while laying down heavy fire. 

 

Learning about the D3 style weapons going through rubrics bonus was news to me. i assumed anytime i rolled a 1 it would count for them. Thanks for that!

 

My opponent isn't heavy mechanizing. Rather i meant that he has lots of power armor. He also relies heavily on demon engines of several varieties which make it difficult for me to pick out which one i should focus first. Between Daemon Princes, Hellbrutes, Mutaliths, Defiler, Magnus, Rubic /sorc groups / Termies and Blobs of tzaangors im not sure which i should be focusing first ever. 

 

Any suggestions on which holds the most weight or a priority list of things you want to lose the least?



#4
WarriorFish

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I've never heard of using lots of Marines being referred to as mechanising - Marines are the army core after all :P That's good for you though as it means you don't need as much AT and/or can focus what you have on Magnus :)

 

Target prioritisation is key for any army, so it sounds like this is one of the first things you should tackle. What is the biggest threat? What is the closest? What can you reasonably expect to take out first? A lot of this is experience too, but when in doubt pick something mean and remove it. Rinse and repeat - never spread your fire out as you can reduce the effectiveness of it greatly. Removing a unit is the best way to ensure it can't help your opponent after all ;)

 

If Magnus is on the table he's an obvious start. Daemon Princes won't be targets to start with as Characters so don't worry too much about them until you have a chance (combat is ideal as there's no hiding there, otherwise a sneaky move/reserve drop can do wonders for shooting Characters). Helbrutes can be good - I'd imagine they have AT weapons to fill that hole? - but not terribly tough. You can reasonably expect to take one out in a turn with suitable AT at your disposal :)

 

As for Rubrics and other infantry, I know it's not ideal but this is where your other guns should go. Small arms and the like might give them better saves, but is likely more effective than trying your luck against big nasties. That's still an option in 8th and a decent one, so don't be afraid to give it a go if you need a couple of wounds shaved off. Tzaangors would be good bolter bait with poorer saves so if they're on the table they're ripe for shooting down first.

 

As for psychic powers Sons do this as their thing so you won't be able to compete directly. That said, BA can muster more psychic might than most so consider giving him a surprise by going psyker heavy - see what you can do. Otherwise my usual advice is if you can't win in the psychic phase it might be better not to try and save points. There's only so many powers he can use, and aside from Characters the likes of Aspiring Sorcerers can only inflict a single Mortal Wound with their baby smite so it shouldn't be too scary. Make sure your valuable units aren't the closest ;)


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Terminators | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Gaunts


#5
Pyronick

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Thank you for the feedback again I appreciate all the tips!  Regarding the mech definition. i think its very possible i confused it with another forums use of the term MEQ (Marine Equivalent) i think. MEQ... Mech... ya you get it.

 

My last question really revolves around the Mutalith. He brings it every dam time. It runs right up the middle of the board and just has this ring of mortal wounds that it keeps pumping out. I want to lace right into it and remove it but it takes so much fire. Ignore? Go around? Dig my heels in and squash it?



#6
WarriorFish

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The Mutalith is a curious beastie. I've not got one yet and wouldn't have had the opportunity to field it if I had, but it's pretty straight forward in use. You can hold it back for some buffs or send it in to cause mischief - or let Tzeentch decide! Your opponent is doing the offensive it seems and it's good at that as a throw away unit - it'll do its thing and doesn't need support and will force your opponent to handle it.

 

It has pretty standard Daemon Engine stats, so is fast enough to close in over a turn or two. Spreading out a bit to prevent it getting easy hits on lots of your units will help, but otherwise it's not terribly tough. With almost all AT guns you'll be reducing it to its 5++ save and be able to blast it down. 14 Wounds seems like a lot, but I've had my Daemon Engines killed off easily enough to know better! tongue.png Sounds like it might be an idea to focus fire this first, give you some breathing room?

 

As it's not got a great save you can send some small arms after it too, most will wound on a 5+ so you can plink away more wounds (especially with AP-1 guns). I don't think you can afford to ignore it, as even if it gets in combat it can still use its abilities, so you really want to try killing it before it can charge.


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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gallery_30308_3239_42.gifgallery_30308_3239_102.gifgallery_30308_3239_42.gif
In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Terminators | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Gaunts


#7
Claws and Effect

Claws and Effect

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Get some Sang Guard anyway.

They already have 2 wounds and a 2+ save. Effectively they already are Primaris as far as their stats are concerned. My wife uses hers and they wreck my Primaris Raven Guard on a consistent basis.

Since they are already so good, I wouldn't count on them ever getting a Primaris version.

My wife uses a trick that has been really effective for her: Run a Sanguinary Ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice and make him the Warlord. That way the Sang Guard get all the benefits of the banner plus their bonuses for being within 6" of the Warlord (Heirs of Azkaellon).

#8
Archaeinox

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I would do whatever it takes to tie the Rubrics up in close combat. 

 

Also, every land speeder and transport that you sacrifice by moving up is another Smite that won't go on a critical BA unit. The worst thing I encounter is having an entire psychic phase's Smites go on Rhinos or something, even drop pods or repulsors. To be honest, I'd even consider charging the mutalith just to delay it. It will struggle against a vehicle. I'd even put the transports into the Tzaangors when possible. 

 

Noticing a theme here? 

 

That will allow your stuff to get rid of Magnus asap. He needs to go away and with the units you have listed being available to you, I'd be shocked he's even bringing Magnus at all.


Edited by Archaeinox, 26 January 2020 - 06:00 PM.

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